SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[Samoth]

Okay so guys, am I reading this wrong, or are Mystic Adepts totally awesome now?

You give up Astral Perception (can be bought back) and Projection, but in exchange you get to gain 1 PP for a 2 karma expenditure, capped at your magic. I'm not seeing any other downside. This is a huge buff compared to having to split your magic between casting and adept PP. Is there something here I'm missing?

I noticed this as well and was praying it was an editing error. All hail the era of Mystic Adept dominance.

[BigMrE]

From my understanding you can make a non-aspected mage with magic 5 with this system as the metatype choice comes with special attribute points. e.g C for Magic / D for Human(3)

But only if you put the race as a higher priority than skills, attributes or $$$.

Of course, with the freebie spells, spellcasters don't need AS much $$$ (yeah, right!). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And it makes sense for the trolls to pay more for gear and such (not much "off the rack" in troll size), but why did dwarves lose thermographic vision?

[Black Swan]

Just reading through, but had to stop to comment on this:

Trolls pay 50% more for all gear, including cyber/bio?

lmao, goodbye troll characters.

My guess is this is a balance issue. When they went from SR3 to SR4 the troll bonuses remained, but the penalties became lowered attribute maximums, which made the troll unbalanced. . . . IMO, anyway.

[BigMrE]

I thought of the same thing as soon as I read it. The great thing is, this is cool Shadowrun and not lame White Wolf . lol

Oh, I soooooo wish there was a "like" button for posts, because I would like this one!

[Black Swan]

but why did dwarves lose thermographic vision?

Did they? Let me check. Yes they did! BOOOO!!!!

Also, trolls pay +100% lifestyle costs. Ouch!!!

[BigMrE]

Did they? Let me check. Yes they did! BOOOO!!!!

Also, trolls pay +100% lifestyle costs. Ouch!!!

Ahh, I missed the +100% lifestyle....ouch is right! Of course, my troll ganger was always a street guy anyway....

[Seerow]

I noticed this as well and was praying it was an editing error. All hail the era of Mystic Adept dominance.

Yeah, I'm reading this right now as either Mystic Adepts rock everything forever (because they're a full mage and for a trivial cost also a full adept), or Adepts themselves are terrible (because their powers are balanced such that 2 karma actually is worth 1 PP, and adepts pay way more than 2 karma for each point of magic they get). More likely to be the former than the latter, but I'm just hoping there's some drawback/catch that didn't make it into the PDF (or we just haven't noticed yet).



Unrelated: Technomancers get way fewer complex forms than mages get spells, across the board. I'm hoping this is a sign of huge simplification on the matrix end of things, because as it stands I find the complex form limit of 2xskill in SR4 incredibly limiting. On the other hand if Technomancers now use their complex forms to get things that are way more interesting than boring old programs you bought for a few thousand nuyen, then this is cool. (Though I find it hard to imagine technomancers getting anything cool enough from a complex form to make 1 complex form as awesome as 5 spells.... eh wait and see)

[Patrick Goodman]

Dammit.

I'm fairly certain that's a typo as regards the thermographic vision. A very frustrating typo that we thought had been fixed. I'll double-check to make sure, but I'm thinking that it's just a boo-boo in layout.

[Black Swan]

Yeah, I'm reading this right now as either Mystic Adepts rock everything forever (because they're a full mage and for a trivial cost also a full adept), or Adepts themselves are terrible (because their powers are balanced such that 2 karma actually is worth 1 PP, and adepts pay way more than 2 karma for each point of magic they get). More likely to be the former than the latter, but I'm just hoping there's some drawback/catch that didn't make it into the PDF (or we just haven't noticed yet).

I sure hope so. When I run Shadowrun, I want to have a team of mixed character types. With this, I'm sure everyone will play a mystic adept all the time, ever time. lol

[Black Swan]

Dammit.

I'm fairly certain that's a typo as regards the thermographic vision. A very frustrating typo that we thought had been fixed. I'll double-check to make sure, but I'm thinking that it's just a boo-boo in layout.

Patrick, if you need a proof reader for grammar, spelling, etc., I'm available. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

I wish it hadn't stopped before getting to skills; I would really like to know what the limits are on the starting ratings, and how specializations are purchased. I am assuming that, like the SR4 version, the number to the right on skills is how many of them you can purchase as skill groups. It seems to be based on SR4 priority, but with high enough values that it is a lot more functional, this time - even at the "street" level. And it is more fleshed out with regards to character options (which I kind of expected, since they are making it the default character creation system). Overall, very interesting. Mystic adepts really got beefed up.

[Seerow]

My guess is this is a balance issue. When they went from SR3 to SR4 the troll bonuses remained, but the penalties became lowered attribute maximums, which made the troll unbalanced. . . . IMO, anyway.

I think 50% is going to be swinging it too much the other way. I could end up being dead wrong, but 50% cost is a huge modifier, and when the race has its stats geared for an archtype that is primarily money based....

I mean consider this. You're making your Troll Street Sammy. Troll already has to take up your second highest priority. You can throw magic down to last. But now you have A/C/D to distribute between Skills/Money/Attributes. As a Sammy you probably want Money up top, attributes at C, and that sticks you with skills at D. But because you're a troll, the 450,000 nuyen you just got automatically gets dropped to 300,000 nuyen, because everything you buy costs 50% more.

Yeah, troll stats are nice... but are they really that nice?


I guess you could still go the troll adept route. I wonder, do foci cost them 50% more too?

[Bull]

There's a couple editing errors in there, unfortunately.

And this thing got put through the ringer. Unfortunately, there were also a couple different versions of the rules through playtesting, and looks like a couple things slipped into the final edit in places that shouldn't have.

For Dwarves, I'm fairly certain they still have Thermo. That would be silly if it suddenly vanished.

For the Troll Increased Costs... It's either +50% Gear or +100% Lifestyle, not both. I believe +100% Lifestyle was the final version and should be correct.

[Black Swan]

I think 50% is going to be swinging it too much the other way. I could end up being dead wrong, but 50% cost is a huge modifier, and when the race has its stats geared for an archtype that is primarily money based....

Well, it was previously 25% ... or was that in the earlier editions? I don't remember any more.

[Seerow]

For the Troll Increased Costs... It's either +50% Gear or +100% Lifestyle, not both. I believe +100% Lifestyle was the final version and should be correct.

That's good to hear. +50% gear is crippling. +100% lifestyle is annoying, but can be worked around without too much trouble.

[Trillinon]

I'm glad to see the Priority System return, with the extra karma slush fund at the end. I think it's a solid compromise between ease of character creation and flexibility.

That said, the presentation of it is frustrating. Reading it raises questions faster than it answers them. It could really use a brief overview of the whole process before it delves into each step. Also, I think the descriptions could be made easier to follow with some language cleanup. I approve of having multiple examples, though. Still, I would never hand this to a player and say, "Build a character." It would be far easier to explain it myself.

[Seerow]

Well, it was previously 25% ... or was that in the earlier editions? I don't remember any more.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing like that for cyber/bio in 4e. If there is it's one rule my group never noticed or adhered to, but I've never noticed either character builder I've used taking that kind of a jump into account.

There are the racial mods for weapons/vehicles, and that might be a 25% increase (honestly not sure offhand), and if something like that is still in I don't mind it. It's really just the increased cost on cyber/bio that was hugely "wtf"

[Black Swan]

AhHH!!! SPIDER SPIRIT!

I just tried to squish a spider on my wall and he jumped at me! ARGH!

[Black Swan]

There are the racial mods for weapons/vehicles, and that might be a 25% increase (honestly not sure offhand), and if something like that is still in I don't mind it. It's really just the increased cost on cyber/bio that was hugely "wtf"

In my mind, I think that would depend on the cyber/bioware. Smartgunlink? No. Bone Lacing? Yes. Trolls will definitely have a larger volume (ergo area) of bone to cover.

Of course, it's just easier to set it all at one mod or no mod at all.

[Patrick Goodman]

Patrick, if you need a proof reader for grammar, spelling, etc., I'm available. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You have no idea the volume of proofing this thing got, and stuff STILL got through.

That said, I'm not the guy to talk to about such things. Drop Jason a line.

[Bull]

The Increased costs for trolls was one of the balancing things we tried to do for SR5. Pound for Pound, Point for Point, especially under Build Points, trolls be BROKEN in SR4. Rebuild the SR4 Archetypes sometime using a Karmagen method, it's crazy how many Karma points the Troll is worth.

Bull

[Black Swan]

You have no idea the volume of proofing this thing got, and stuff STILL got through.

That said, I'm not the guy to talk to about such things. Drop Jason a line.

I'm pretty new here. Jason who?

[Black Swan]

I see armour ratings have gone up.

Aw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) and no longer ballistic/impact ratings? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Bull]

I'm pretty new here. Jason who?

Jason M Hardy, Shadowrun Line Developer.

Email him use info(at)shadowrun4.com

[BigMrE]

I'm pretty new here. Jason who?

Jason Hardy