SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[bannockburn]

From a German Convention workshop (at RPC):

Mental Limit: (LOG x2 + INT +WIL) / 3
Physical Limit: (STR x2 + BOD + REA) / 3
Social Limit: (CHA x2 + WIL + Essence) /3

Round up.

Direct combat spells do damage based on net hits, since they can't be dodged or mitigated further by armor, while indirect combat spells do damage comparable to firearms, with the possibility to dodge and damage is resisted with armor.
Drain is, at its base, equal to F(orce), not F/2 anymore.

[RHat]

... So it's Willpower feeding into Social Limit, not Intuition? That... Makes basically no sense.

[Seerow]

From a German Convention workshop (at RPC):

I assume that Kon is german body?

Anyway, that's a fairly interesting set of formulas. Logic, Strength, Charisma, and Will are the biggest factors in limits, because each of them gets counted twice (Will in two different limits). That seems to leave body out in the cold, and will probably hurt intuition based traditions.

...actually I just noticed agility doesn't seem to factor into any of those. Or if Kon is agility, then Body doesn't.

This seems to put some truth to the theory that hulking trolls are much better at sneaking than lithe elves, which is hilarious.

[bannockburn]

Thanks, corrected. I just C&Ped (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Backgammon]

I laughed, I cried and even gave it a standing ovation.

And you know what? I'm not going to question the translation here. I believe that is 100 percent accurate dialogue. Look at Lieutenant Login's face: That is a man who just found out somebody has been fucking a pillow over his face while he sleeps. That is exactly what my face would look like, if I were to receive that same information: Shock, shame, a little disbelief, some confusion as you try to figure out the logistics of it -- do they fuck the pillow first and then put it over your face? Or do they put the pillow down and kind of leverage their legs against the bed frame to -- no; no, it's better not to know.

OMg I literally have a tear going down my cheek. I had to suppress my laughing so much cause I"m at work. Hoooly shit that was funny.

When I rented this movie the transactions were alright, btw. They must have had shitty translations before the movie got so popular, then they redid them.

[Mäx]

In SR4, the majority of damage reduction was done via armor, augmentation, or avoiding the attack. Body provided a not significant portion of the damage reduction.

Considering that amount of armor one can wear was directly based on body your statement makes no sense what so ever.

[StealthSigma]

Considering that amount of armor one can wear was directly based on body your statement makes no sense what so ever.

1. Armor limit is Body * 2.
2. Thanks to things like form fitted body armor, the limit is actually somewhat higher than Body * 2.
3. One is not actually limited by body on how much armor he can wear.
4. Damage reduction provided by augmentations is not limited by body in any way.
5. Dodge plays a significant, huge, and primary portion of damage reduction.

[Mäx]

I'm knee-deep in making some characters right now, and while money invariably feels a little tight I'm not finding myself unable to fit gear to concepts, personally. I've been able to put together the character I wanted to put together, even with some of them being very, very, gear-heavy (sammies and riggers and whatnot). I've always got the feeling I'd love more money, mind you, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast (and it means I'd be eager to sling dice and collect some nuyen, were I actually playing these characters).

I assume i'm save in thinking that 450k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) will get me everything i could get for 325k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in SR4 chargen?
Trying to see how well i can rebuild my 1000 karma combat face build,thus far (considering the limited nature of the chargen chapter shown) suprisingly well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Seerow]

1. Armor limit is Body * 2.
2. Thanks to things like form fitted body armor, the limit is actually somewhat higher than Body * 2.
3. One is not actually limited by body on how much armor he can wear.
4. Damage reduction provided by augmentations is not limited by body in any way.
5. Dodge plays a significant, huge, and primary portion of damage reduction.

As I noted in my other post, 1 and 2 translate into Armor is Body * 2 + (a number between 1 and 3). So your overall base soak pool is typically something like Body*3+2. This stays true up until around 6 or so points of body, at which point it becomes difficult finding more armor you can use together.

Re 3+4, most augmentations provide relatively minor bonuses (like +1-2 to soak pool for a ton of essence). The only exception is cyberlimb armor which is very efficient (to the point of being broken. Cyberlimb armor should have been averaged out like cybered attributes, not additive), but also comes with cheap/free body augmentations, so you're not likely to have a huge armor without the body to go with it even so.

Re 5 typically your dodge pool is much smaller than your opponent's shooting pool. You have attribute+skill+various bonuses vs reaction. It will likely be much more evenly matched in SR5 (with lower dicepool mods, and dual attribute defenses), but in SR4 the only way dodge really provides a primary portion of damage reduction vs ranged attacks is if you waste most of your actions on full defense. Melee of course is a different story.

[Black Swan]

... So it's Willpower feeding into Social Limit, not Intuition? That... Makes basically no sense.

Willpower feeding social limit makes sense to me. However, intuition not feeding Social Limit does not not make sense to me.

[Seerow]

Willpower feeding social limit makes sense to me. However, intuition not feeding Social Limit does not not make sense to me.

Well if you put Intuition in there, then the only difference between Social and Mental limit is Social gets 2x cha and Mental gets 2x logic.

Though I'm not sure I see the point in separating mental and social. Just having physical limit (average of all physical attributes *4/3) and mental limit (average of all non-physical attributes *4/3) would make more sense.

Or if they really wanted to keep separate tracks for Social and Mental, for symmetry there should be a difference between tracks for Strength and Agility. No idea what the separate tracks would be called, but basically just switch out Str*2 for Agi*2, and use the Agi one for stuff like stealth, and your base limit for shooting (where gun accuracy now moves that number up and down, rather than replacing it which is really weird and defeats the point of standardized limits in the first place)

[RHat]

It would be even stranger if Charisma wasn't the prime governing attribute for Social Limit, Seerow.

And Mental/Physical makes more sense than some sort of Power/Dexterity split, as the Mental Limit is essentially internal, while the Social limit is about external interactions.

[Bull]

There were a number of factors involved in how the stats were chosen. Game balance and how much "Weight" numbers had were two of the big ones. Intuition already has a lot of game weight behind it, while Willpower does, for example.

Also, Willpower factors into Social because you don;t just use this limit "offensively" (Say, when you're trying to change someone's mind), you use it "defensively", to resist people trying to change your mind. That's where WIllpower factors in. Watch someone who's a pushover, easily swayed, and generally weak willed try and negotiate, or fast talk someone, or whatever.

[RHat]

Much like why Intuition should be an element - being able to read people is an important element of being able to tell when and how they're trying to influence you.

Of course, the whole weight thing had me figuring Reaction wouldn't be part of Physical Limit... And I can already see occasions where I'd need to houserule Physical limit to deal with how it interacts with certain concepts.

[Seerow]

It would be even stranger if Charisma wasn't the prime governing attribute for Social Limit, Seerow.

Stranger than agility not even being a factor in your ability to infiltrate or palm?

At least if it were just a straight up mental limit, with no separate social limit, you still have charisma as a factor.

And Mental/Physical makes more sense than some sort of Power/Dexterity split, as the Mental Limit is essentially internal, while the Social limit is about external interactions.

Well my point is that you should have 2 different limits, or 4. This is an area that doesn't particularly benefit from being asymmetric. Having one limit that covers 4 stats (one of which doesn't even get represented), and then two limits that cover 4 stats with almost 100% overlap except for one attribute is really weird. That seems to be a part of the reason why they introduced essence to Social limit, because it helps differentiate Social and Mental limits by using a stat that isn't used elsewhere.

With the simple 2 limits, everything gets represented once, and things are much simpler overall, because you just make each skill subject to the limit that its linked attribute falls under. I actually prefer this one just due to the ease of implementation and use.
Physical-Str, Agi, Bod, Rea
Mental-Log, Wil, Int, Cha


On the other hand, with 4 limits, you have 4 stats that get counted twice in some limit, and then can make every stat that doesn't get counted twice show up in two limits. So all stats have relatively equal weight in the limits, and you can place limits on skills where they make sense. So you have something like:
Power-Str*2, Bod, Rea
Dexterity-Agi*2, Bod, Rea
Mental-Log*2, Wil, Int
Social-Cha*2, Wil, Int

Though here I wouldn't even mind having say Reaction and Agility reversed, so Power factors in Agi some, and Dex gets a big boost from good reaction. That change would help downplay agi as a super stat (as it plays a more supporting role), and still gives an option that makes sense to apply to guns, stealth, etc... and also happens to fit exceptionally well for driving.

[Bull]

Well, at the end of the day, it's also a general game mechanic. There's only so much you can do before it starts getting overly complicated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Reaction is important, but Agility factors into a lot of skills already, hence Reaction over Agility. Intuition factors into a lot more tests than Willpower, so hence that.

One of the ideas behind SR5 is that there is NOTHING that can be purely a dump stat anymore. Everything factors in somewhere. (And some stuff will still end up dumpish, but...)

ALso, don't underestimate how much one decent stat in the mix, or that x2 stat, will effect your numbers. I played a dumb as a brick, uncharismatic, uncouth phsyical adept during playtesting who still had 4's and 5's for his mental and social limit. And since I had no plans to roll more than 12 dice for any of those tests, that's an acceptable limit, since I won't limit out often (if at all).

Everyone's freaking out about the limits, but keep in mind you need 12 or more dice before even a low limit like 4 really impacts you. Since you divide by 3 and round up, you have to REALLY work at it to get a limit of only 3 (Which is still 9 dice, which is fine for most average tests anyway). And it's nearly impossibly to get a Limit of 2, since you'd need multiple attributes at rank 1. Doable, but man is that a seriously min-maxed character at that point, even if you took Priorty E for Attributes.

[Umidori]

Personally, the three limit system just screams "Earthdawn" to me, à la Physical Defense, Mystic Defense, and Social Defense...

~Umi

[RHat]

I'm aware of your point, but I disagree. 2 Limits makes less sense on one side, 4 Limits makes less sense on the other. 3 Limits handles that issue nicely.

As for the whole "Agility doesn't feed into Limit" thing, I could easily see that being a serious issue - if a character concept calls for someone highly dexterous, but at the same time fairly weak, their Limit won't be high enough to suit the concept - being generous, let's give this character Body 2, Strength 2, and Reaction 3; their Physical Limit is 3. Reaction 5 only makes that 4. If that character's supposed to be a talented thief, that's just not going to work due to the Limit.

Bull: My main issue is that the absence of Agility in the PhysLim code is that it prevents too many concepts from working. I get that it's kind of a seriously important stat, but with Reaction covering Initiative, defense, and piloting (which I've often seen taken as a secondary for characters who already have a high Reaction), it's valuable in its own right. The first use is HUGE, the second is pretty seriously valuable, and the third expands the character's abilities into a whole new area. So I'm not sure that the weighting justifies the concept exclusion.

[Tycho]

I played a dumb as a brick, uncharismatic, uncouth phsyical adept during playtesting who still had 4's and 5's for his mental and social limit. And since I had no plans to roll more than 12 dice for any of those tests, that's an acceptable limit, since I won't limit out often (if at all).

Everyone's freaking out about the limits, but keep in mind you need 12 or more dice before even a low limit like 4 really impacts you. Since you divide by 3 and round up, you have to REALLY work at it to get a limit of only 3 (Which is still 9 dice, which is fine for most average tests anyway). And it's nearly impossibly to get a Limit of 2, since you'd need multiple attributes at rank 1. Doable, but man is that a seriously min-maxed character at that point, even if you took Priorty E for Attributes.

Seems to me that these "Limits" are pretty pointless. Especially if someone with pretty bad attributes in the area is still won't limit out often.

[Umidori]

Agility without sufficient strength or fortitude should be punished.

Want to hide quickly? You might have great coordination, but if you wind yourself dashing across the room and have to pant to catch your breath, you're not gonna be very stealthy. Want to shoot off a few bullets at an enemy? You might have great aiming potential, but can't hold the weapon steady because of it's weight, much less handle the recoil. Want to execute a flying kick? You may be able to control your leap, but you certainly can't put any power into it or get much distance.

Being in better physical shape and possessing a higher physical strength allow you to make the most of your agility. To take an extreme example, a house cat is quite agile, but it has trouble hunting things larger than a mouse. Meanwhile a jaguar is agile, but also strong enough to take on most any terrestrial creature.

Seems to me that these "Limits" are pretty pointless. Especially if someone with pretty bad attributes in the area is still won't limit out often.

You're not thinking hard enough.

What about situational modifiers like full defense or superior positioning? What about using Edge to add dice on a critically important roll? What about spells or powers boosting your abilities but not your attributes? What about teamwork tests, like having your buddies help you bust down a door in time to escape from a closing cyberzombie? What about the effects of drugs? If you're at your limit, all the extra dice in the world won't help you.

~Umi

[Patrick Goodman]

Well, the fomulae've broken out now, so I asked Jason if I could post this. He said sure.

There's been a lot of ruckus about the Social Limit and the effect of Essence upon it. I therefore decided to take dead average individuals, and see what their limits were with Essence ratings of 6 and 0.01, just to see the impact of Essence on the Social Limit. I didn't buy these characters gear or anything that would change their stats or possibly alter the limits; I just ran the basic numbers to see the effect on the one limit.

It's not earth-shaking.

CODE

Average Human

B   A   R   S   W   L   I   C
3   3   3   3   3   3   3   3

Essence 6: Physical 4, Mental 4, Social 5
Essence 0.01: Physical 4, Mental 4, Social 4

Average Dwarf

B   A   R   S   W   L   I   C
5   3   2   5   4   3   3   3

Essence 6: Physical 6, Mental 5, Social 6
Essence 0.01: Physical 6, Mental 5, Social 4

Average Elf

B   A   R   S   W   L   I   C
3   4   3   3   3   3   3   5

Essence 6: Physical 4, Mental 4, Social 7
Essence 0.01: Physical 4, Mental 4, Social 5

Average Ork

B   A   R   S   W   L   I   C
6   3   3   5   3   2   3   2

Essence 6: Physical 7, Mental 4, Social 5
Essence 0.01: Physical 7, Mental 4, Social 3

Average Troll

B   A   R   S   W   L   I   C
7   2   3   7   3   2   2   1

Essence 6: Physical 8, Mental 3, Social 4
Essence 0.01: Physical 8, Mental 3, Social 2

[Seerow]

Agility without sufficient strength or fortitude should be punished.

Nobody is saying that the limit should not take these things into account, so I'm not sure what strawman you are trying to attack here...

Want to hide quickly? You might have great coordination, but if you wind yourself dashing across the room and have to pant to catch your breath, you're not gonna be very stealthy.

This would be an issue of body, not strength.

Want to shoot off a few bullets at an enemy? You might have great aiming potential, but can't hold the weapon steady because of it's weight, much less handle the recoil.

Unfortunately that's not how limits work, because the limits for shooting a gun are based on the gun, not your stats. In any case there are better ways to represent this that have been discussed elsewhere.

Want to execute a flying kick? You may be able to control your leap, but you certainly can't put any power into it or get much distance.

A flying kick would certainly fall under athletics/unarmed combat, both of which I imagine would be primarily strength based.


Now if you're done attacking things nobody has ever suggested or wanted, how about addressing the thought that a troll's limit for Infiltration or Palming is going to be on average a full 4 points higher than a human or elf, because strength and body get weighted in so heavily while agi not at all? This isn't game balance, it's ridiculousness.

[Nath]

It would be even stranger if Charisma wasn't the prime governing attribute for Social Limit, Seerow.

Now that you mention it, I actually wouldn't find it so silly than someone very Charismatic but unimaginative, silly and/or weak-willed (low Intuition, low Logic and low Willpower) is not going to be good at manipulating people because his success won't leverage things in the right direction. You can come up with a very convincing lie, be believed, and still not get the desired result.

[Umidori]

Nobody is saying that the limit should not take these things into account, so I'm not sure what strawman you are trying to attack here...

Stranger than agility not even being a factor in your ability to infiltrate or palm?

As for the whole "Agility doesn't feed into Limit" thing, I could easily see that being a serious issue - if a character concept calls for someone highly dexterous, but at the same time fairly weak, their Limit won't be high enough to suit the concept - being generous, let's give this character Body 2, Strength 2, and Reaction 3; their Physical Limit is 3. Reaction 5 only makes that 4. If that character's supposed to be a talented thief, that's just not going to work due to the Limit.

The problem I'm seeing is that of mutual misunderstanding. This doesn't necessitate the level of flippant rudeness and insults you're bandying about, but I'll try to at least explain the situation as I understand it.

You are correct that Agility isn't a direct factor in your physical limits. I read somewhat more into your post's meaning than was apparantly there, and for that I apologize.

That said, I do still feel I've touched upon something. To use your example, palming and infiltrating are limited by your Strength and Body. I argue this makes perfect sense. If you're agile enough to perform those actions, but not strong or fit enough, that will limit you.

The opposite is not true, however. Being strong does not preclude you from being coordinated in certain circumstances. You can be a big, clumsy oaf most of the time, with abyssmal agility, but then pull off feats of great finesse - assuming you have the training for them. You can develop muscle memory for that specific task. For most everything else, you're a walking disaster, but if you've taken the time to develop specific skills, you can focus and get your body to do what you want it to do for that specific task. You are not limited by your lack of agility.

A clumsy strongman can still hide, but an agile weakling can't lift a great weight, nor get their body to do what they want without strain. And that's the key difference.

Now if you're done attacking things nobody has ever suggested or wanted, how about addressing the thought that a troll's limit for Infiltration or Palming is going to be on average a full 4 points higher than a human or elf, because strength and body get weighted in so heavily while agi not at all? This isn't game balance, it's ridiculousness.

Yes, a troll will have higher limits. But at the same time, he'll have much lower Agility and Skill, so he won't be able to put those limits to use very often. Now, yes, he can use Edge or gain other situational dice bonuses as I mentioned in my previous post, but why shouldn't he be able to? Just because he's uncoordinated most of the time doesn't mean he can't get lucky or get help from outside factors.

But the same is not true of a weakling with high agility. Their lack of strength or fitness is a direct hindrance to all their physical actions, because it is a physical limitation, not just a lack of coordination. For example, you can't use Edge to help you lift more than you normally can.

This would be an issue of body, not strength.

I clearly was refering to both collectively. Please reread my post.

Unfortunately that's not how limits work, because the limits for shooting a gun are based on the gun, not your stats. In any case there are better ways to represent this that have been discussed elsewhere.

I concede I haven't read the previews yet, so I this is probably just a mistake on my part. I think I was assuming Accuracy modified your limits. Apologies for my confusion.

A flying kick would certainly fall under athletics/unarmed combat, both of which I imagine would be primarily strength based.

Arguments could go either way for strength or body, which is part of why I originally spoke including both.

~Umi

[Seerow]

Arguments could go either way for strength or body, which is part of why I originally spoke including both.

But once again, nobody is arguing against including both. Nobody is saying a limit should have only a single factor going into it. Because whether you think strength or body should be a factor... in the way things work now, and any alternate proposal put forth, both strength and body would be a factor in that particular test. So you are once again drawing a meaningless distinction to make yourself seem right while completely missing the point.

The complaints are focused around what ARE going into it. The issue isn't that your infiltration is limited by strength or body, it's that strength and body make up 75% of what factors into your limit, and agility doesn't factor into it AT ALL.

I'm not sure if you're oblivious, or if you're intentionally setting up strawman arguments, but either way you are not presenting an effective argument.