SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[binarywraith]

The Increased costs for trolls was one of the balancing things we tried to do for SR5. Pound for Pound, Point for Point, especially under Build Points, trolls be BROKEN in SR4. Rebuild the SR4 Archetypes sometime using a Karmagen method, it's crazy how many Karma points the Troll is worth.

Bull

And the solution was making them impractical to play rather than adjusting their racial bonuses to not be staggeringly large?

That's... a little backwards.


Okay, a lot backwards.

[Critias]

Yes, the final decision was Trolls and Dwarves just get the Lifestyle increase, but the fact some of the different versions slipped through were -- trust me -- the very first errata posted.

I'm pretty new here. Jason who?

Jason Hardy, the line developer. The rest of us schmucks are just writers, so who edits/proofs our stuff is out of our hands. I think his email is available on the official website somewhere, but off the top of my head I know he's also got an account here, as user "JM Hardy," though I can't swear how often he checks this place.

[Critias]

And the solution was making them impractical to play rather than adjusting their racial bonuses to not be staggeringly large?

That's... a little backwards.


Okay, a lot backwards.

So Trolls have to pay double on Lifestyle, which for most players is absolutely an afterthought they do with stray nuyen at the end of the day. You see that as making them impractical to play. The alternative, according to you, was that we should have, instead, lowered their racial bonuses (in an edition where basic stats matter more than they have in a long time) -- which absolutely, I assure you, would have brought upon us a shitstorm not seen since War!, because everyone would be bitching about how suddenly Trolls are gimped with weak stats, all the Trolls in the universe shrank all of a sudden, and on and on and on.

[Seerow]

The Increased costs for trolls was one of the balancing things we tried to do for SR5. Pound for Pound, Point for Point, especially under Build Points, trolls be BROKEN in SR4. Rebuild the SR4 Archetypes sometime using a Karmagen method, it's crazy how many Karma points the Troll is worth.

Bull

It could also be that the things trolls boost are overbudgeted. While +4 str/bod is a really huge gain in those raw stats, and results in being worth a whole bunch of points, in actuality strength is basically the weakest stat in the game, so the result was that trolls were really good at being massively survivable at the cost of losing out on agility (the best physical stat), and all of the mental stats (meaning you're going to be really crappy at being a mage, to the point of "Why are you bothering?"). While in a point for point sense the troll is overbudget, in an overall game balance sense, I never saw trolls as broken, just being really strong in a niche that generally wasn't strong to begin with. Now if we had a race giving those same sorts of stat boosts to reaction and agility, we'd have a whole different story.

That's all in the context of SR4 though. In SR5 it's wholly possible that you rebalanced attributes so that Body is good for something other than raw survivability, or strength is a useful stat at all. It's possible you tuned the rules such that melee combat is a totally viable tactic, and having reduced agility isn't a hindrance in melee. In that case, great, the troll's niche has been improved, and its points are worth more!

But then you realize, the priority system places Trolls at a B rating. Let's look at it this way: You want a totally mundane character. Your priorities are Money > Attributes > Skill, with magic at the bottom regardless.

As a Troll you get:
450,000nuyen
16 attributes
22 skills

As a human you get:
450,000 nuyen
20 attributes
28/2 skills
+4 edge (+1 base human, +3 for having Human at priority D instead of E, because you're mundane)

So you trade out 4 strength, 4 body, 1 reach, 1 armor
You gain 4 attributes of your choice, 6/2 skills, and 4 edge


I see very few situations where the Human isn't winning all around. Anyway, I'm making the assumption you already know all of this, because you said the +50% gear cost was intended to be removed, however I am demonstrating that with the priority system, you bumped up the cost of Troll dramatically compared to its cost in SR4. To the point where these two options are relatively balanced, with an edge to Human if you want more versatility, or more focus on ranged combat and an edge to Troll if you want more room to specialize/grow in the close combat/tank niche.

This balanced out nicely on its own WITHOUT the need for the increased costs. This means any cost increasing should be relatively minor, and show up as primarily flavor, as opposed to being seen as something that needs to be there as a counterbalancing penalty. ie minor recurring upkeep, or small increase on weapon cost, fine. Big increase on major purchases? Not fine.

[Black Swan]

Yes, the final decision was Trolls and Dwarves just get the Lifestyle increase,

I really like this balancing tool. Very nice.

[binarywraith]

So Trolls have to pay double on Lifestyle, which for most players is absolutely an afterthought they do with stray nuyen at the end of the day. You see that as making them impractical to play. The alternative, according to you, was that we should have, instead, lowered their racial bonuses (in an edition where basic stats matter more than they have in a long time) -- which absolutely, I assure you, would have brought upon us a shitstorm not seen since War!, because everyone would be bitching about how suddenly Trolls are gimped with weak stats, all the Trolls in the universe shrank all of a sudden, and on and on and on.

Paying double on lifestyle isn't a big deal. Reading the bit about +50% on gear and especially cyber was the dealbreaker that would essentially mean the only trolls in the sprawl would be adepts. No way in hell can you support a samurai on the kind of payouts that have been mentioned in these previews at those cost rates.

Not that there's any reason to make anything but an adept or mage anyway, at least that's been released to us yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BigMrE]

Ok, after thinking back to trying to walk my group through point buy character creation, I'm realizing that the priority system probably is best for new players and a new system, but I still can't wait for the point buy alternative in Run Hard(er?).

[Black Swan]

It could also be that the things trolls boost are overbudgeted. While +4 str/bod is a really huge gain in those raw stats, and results in being worth a whole bunch of points, in actuality strength is basically the weakest stat in the game, so the result was that trolls were really good at being massively survivable at the cost of losing out on agility (the best physical stat), and all of the mental stats (meaning you're going to be really crappy at being a mage, to the point of "Why are you bothering?"). While in a point for point sense the troll is overbudget, in an overall game balance sense, I never saw trolls as broken, just being really strong in a niche that generally wasn't strong to begin with. Now if we had a race giving those same sorts of stat boosts to reaction and agility, we'd have a whole different story.

That's all in the context of SR4 though. In SR5 it's wholly possible that you rebalanced attributes so that Body is good for something other than raw survivability, or strength is a useful stat at all. It's possible you tuned the rules such that melee combat is a totally viable tactic, and having reduced agility isn't a hindrance in melee. In that case, great, the troll's niche has been improved, and its points are worth more!

But then you realize, the priority system places Trolls at a B rating. Let's look at it this way: You want a totally mundane character. Your priorities are Money > Attributes > Skill, with magic at the bottom regardless.

As a Troll you get:
450,000nuyen
16 attributes
22 skills

As a human you get:
450,000 nuyen
20 attributes
28/2 skills
+4 edge (+1 base human, +3 for having Human at priority D instead of E, because you're mundane)

So you trade out 4 strength, 4 body, 1 reach, 1 armor
You gain 4 attributes of your choice, 6/2 skills, and 4 edge


I see very few situations where the Human isn't winning all around. Anyway, I'm making the assumption you already know all of this, because you said the +50% gear cost was intended to be removed, however I am demonstrating that with the priority system, you bumped up the cost of Troll dramatically compared to its cost in SR4. To the point where these two options are relatively balanced, with an edge to Human if you want more versatility, or more focus on ranged combat and an edge to Troll if you want more room to specialize/grow in the close combat/tank niche.

This balanced out nicely on its own WITHOUT the need for the increased costs. This means any cost increasing should be relatively minor, and show up as primarily flavor, as opposed to being seen as something that needs to be there as a counterbalancing penalty. ie minor recurring upkeep, or small increase on weapon cost, fine. Big increase on major purchases? Not fine.

The troll gains 4 attribute points over the human and loses 8 skill points. Edge bonus vs. Reach, Thermo, and Armour.

You could say the troll attributes and the human skills balance out, but I still think the troll's Thremographic Vision, Armour Bonus, and Reach Bonus outweighs the Edge bonus. IMO anyway.

[Critias]

Paying double on lifestyle isn't a big deal. Reading the bit about +50% on gear and especially cyber was the dealbreaker that would essentially mean the only trolls in the sprawl would be adepts. No way in hell can you support a samurai on the kind of payouts that have been mentioned in these previews at those cost rates.

The +50% on gear that is not happening, and that we've already clarified here in this thread?

Not that there's any reason to make anything but an adept or mage anyway, at least that's been released to us yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yet, elsewhere, we have people insisting that mages are worthless because direct combat spells do too little damage. The internet's a funny place sometimes, ain't it? There are wildly disparate opinions falling off trees, sometimes.

[Glyph]

I see armour ratings have gone up.

Aw (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) and no longer ballistic/impact ratings? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Damage has gone up, too, and it looks like melee damage doesn't divide Strength by 2 any longer. Since it takes an average of three dice to soak one point of damage, the net result, despite higher armor ratings, looks like it will be deadlier combat.

[binarywraith]

The +50% on gear that is not happening, and that we've already clarified here in this thread?

Yeah, apparently while I was writing up my post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And yet, elsewhere, we have people insisting that mages are worthless because direct combat spells do too little damage. The internet's a funny place sometimes, ain't it?

I'm witholding my verdict on that for further rules, of course, but giving adepts their own version of a power focus still isn't sitting fully comfortably with me.

[Seerow]

The troll gains 4 attribute points over the human and loses 8 skill points. Edge bonus vs. Reach, Thermo, and Armour.

You could say the troll attributes and the human skills balance out, but I still think the troll's Thremographic Vision, Armour Bonus, and Reach Bonus outweighs the Edge bonus. IMO anyway.

He doesn't lose 8 skillpoints. He loses 6 skill points and 2 points in a skill group, which is more like 6-8 skill points. In total the troll's down around 12-14 skillpoints.

Even if you were right, Thermo is dirt cheap (or at least has been in the past, I don't assume eyewear is going to become drastically more expensive, but it might), so you have +1 armor and +1 reach vs 4 edge. Unless you're really going hardcore into a melee specialist, that 4 edge will win 9 times out of 10. I know I'd trade 1 die in close combat and 1 armor for 4 edge any day, on any character. (unfortunately 1 die in close combat and 1 armor is generally worth more like 5-6 bp than the 40 that the edge costs, so I don't get the opportunity to make that kind of trade often QQ)

[Black Swan]

It appears that Karma is used to buy contacts and you get bonus Contact Karma based on Charisma?

[Patrick Goodman]

The combats I've run in demos and playtests have been BRUTAL.

[Black Swan]

He doesn't lose 8 skillpoints. He loses 6 skill points

Oop, my bad.

[Black Swan]

He doesn't lose 8 skillpoints. He loses 6 skill points and 2 points in a skill group, which is more like 6-8 skill points. In total the troll's down around 12-14 skillpoints.

Even if you were right, Thermo is dirt cheap (or at least has been in the past, I don't assume eyewear is going to become drastically more expensive, but it might), so you have +1 armor and +1 reach vs 4 edge. Unless you're really going hardcore into a melee specialist, that 4 edge will win 9 times out of 10. I know I'd trade 1 die in close combat and 1 armor for 4 edge any day, on any character. (unfortunately 1 die in close combat and 1 armor is generally worth more like 5-6 bp than the 40 that the edge costs, so I don't get the opportunity to make that kind of trade often QQ)

Don't forget, though. The Body and Strength bonuses are not only a bonus to the attribute itself, but also a bonus to the equivalent natural human limit. Imagine the karma cost (if the rules allowed) to increase an attribute max and the rating itself 4 times.

[CanRay]

The combats I've run in demos and playtests have been BRUTAL.

I've come pretty close, and I'm fairly conservative with what I throw my group against.

One incident (the closest to death, come to think of it) that really hurt our Troll Tank/Wheelman was just stun damage. Most of it, friendly fire.

Also... Flash-Bang Grenades and Self-Induced Poisoning. It got so that my group was ashamed to walk into Sam's Surgery And Deli any longer.

[Black Swan]

I've come pretty close, and I'm fairly conservative with what I throw my group against.

One incident (the closest to death, come to think of it) that really hurt our Troll Tank/Wheelman was just stun damage. Most of it, friendly fire.

Also... Flash-Bang Grenades and Self-Induced Poisoning. It got so that my group was ashamed to walk into Sam's Surgery And Deli any longer.

Woohoo! Fellow Canadian! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seerow]

Don't forget, though. The Body and Strength bonuses are not only a bonus to the attribute itself, but also a bonus to the equivalent natural human limit. Imagine the karma cost (if the rules allowed) to increase an attribute max and the rating itself 4 times.

Sure, now let's also calculate the cost for all of the stats (which are more generally useful) that the troll now has a lower cap in. Also let's not forget to count how many people are going to raise either strength or body to 6, let alone 9, let alone the 15 the troll gets access to.

Like I said, trolls are fun for niche builds where you want to show off big numbers. For 4e a year or two back I made a cyber-adept troll built to punch his way through tanks with his bare hands. I'm pretty sure that was about all that character was capable of doing, but that sort of thing can be fun as a thought exercise. However, most actual characters are better served with the increased versatility that taking another race gives. Trolls are balanced by the fact that they give up a huge load of versatility, in exchange for being awesome at a role that is frankly not particularly optimal.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you're arguing this point. My whole argument is that trolls are relatively balanced as they are, as long as that 50% cost increase stays far far away from ever hitting bookshelves. Given it's already been confirmed that the intention is it does go away, why are you continuing to make the argument that the troll is somehow objectively superior?

[KCKitsune]

My guess is that a lot of players complained about taking too long to make a character with the point system, so they made the priority system the default system again, and the point buy system will come back in a companion. Unfortunately you will have to wait. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Then get a program like Chummer that makes generating characters pretty damn simple.

[Mantis]

Anyone notice Dwarves got a +1 boost on Body? So now they are +2 Body, -1 Reaction, +2 Strength and +1 Will.

[Entropian]

Has anyone else noticed that there is no mention of augmented maximums?

[thorya]

Even if they don't explicitly include a point build system, since they have included karma rules for customization and upgrading, it should be pretty easy to construct a karmagen system immediately. Metatype costs can be estimated from the priority system by what is equivalent to the metatype. It's the type of thing they could probably have put in as a 1 page set of optional rules and may even have done so, but even if they didn't we can (as much as people on DS adhore "house ruling").

I would guess 1000 karma would probably put you in the right ball park, but we'll know for sure once they release the rest of the rules. It's a little extra work now, but I'd rather do that then wait for another source book in a year.

[Larsine]

Ok, after thinking back to trying to walk my group through point buy character creation, I'm realizing that the priority system probably is best for new players and a new system, but I still can't wait for the point buy alternative in Run Hard(er?).

That would be in Run Faster http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/143045/run-faster

[RHat]

Even if they don't explicitly include a point build system, since they have included karma rules for customization and upgrading, it should be pretty easy to construct a karmagen system immediately. Metatype costs can be estimated from the priority system by what is equivalent to the metatype.

Simple: Use the amount of "special attribute points" gained by each metatype to establish the difference from baseline.