SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[Jareth Valar]

First, Patrick, good job man, good job. Thoroughly enjoyable read. Props where props are due.

Second, I am really surprised at the current priority system. I was filled with trepidation when I first heard that Priority would be used. However, fears have been attenuated.

Third, while I refuse to jump on the band wagon of whether Limits are or are not needed/wanted/etc, because they are part of the core rules, I do have issues with what I have seen with the Limit formulas.

I agree that Strength, Body, and Reaction should be a factor, but raw muscle power does not make sense to me as the major contributor to a group of skills that only some of them even factor Strength as a concept. Also, Intuition being left out of Social seems a bit odd as well. That being said, I have played with a few numbers and have reworked the limit formulas. These were re-worked with the express thought, NO attribute should be left out of the formula, and emphasis should be shifted slightly.

Physical = AGI*2+STR+BOD+REA/4
Mental = LOG*2+INT*2+WIL/4
Social = CHA*2+INT+WIL+ESS/4

Now, some reasoning behind this.

Physical: to be honest, in my experience and understanding, eye-hand/eye-foot coordination and balance is far more important overall than pure power. However, as someone else (Umidori I think) posted, if you aren't fit and reasonably in shape you cannot utilize that coordination to it's fullest extent in most circumstances.

Mental: I was pretty OK with the formula being the way it was, but it has been my personal experience (and YMMV) that Intuitive leaps are often times just as important as pure Logic, if not more so. I work in corrections, and I can tell you from personal experience, The ability to use logic creatively is what differentiates Smart from Intelligent IMHO. Will is obvious for the fact that you have to have the discipline and drive to make the most of those gifts.

Social: I have to say, I really like Essence being added into this. It really brings back a thought of the dehumanizing aspect of becoming more machine than man (Flash backs of old AD Police (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) ). However, Intuition not being included seem...counter-intuitive? Having worked customer service for more than 2 decades I believe Intuition is definitely a factor. Willpower has already been addressed as to why.

All this being said, "How does this affect the Limits?". Some but not as much as might be thought. In this, listed below are the differences between. Now with Avg, I am assuming the standard of 3 modified by racial mods, Max assumes unaugmented attribute maximum, as how augments affect limits are as yet unclear.

OLD: Human (avg) P4/M4/S5 uncybered S4 if full cybered (0.01 Essence)
NEW: Human (avg) P4/M4/S5 uncybered S4 if full cybered

OLD: Dwarf (avg) P6/M6/S7 uncybered S5 if full cybered
NEW: Dwarf (avg) P5/M5/S6 uncybered S5 if full cybered

OLD: Elf (avg) P4/M4/S7 uncybered S5 if full cybered
NEW: Elf (avg) P5/M4/S6 uncybered S5 if full cybered

OLD: Ork (avg) P7/M4/S5 uncybered S3 if full cybered
NEW: Ork (avg) P5/M4/S4 uncybered S3 if full cybered

OLD: Troll (avg) P8/M3/S4 uncybered S2 if full cybered
NEW: Troll (avg) P6/M3/S4 uncybered S2 if full cybered

OLD: Human (max) P8/M8/S8 uncybered S7 if full cybered (0.01 Essence)
NEW: Human (max) P8/M8/S8 uncybered S7 if full cybered

OLD: Dwarf (max) P10/M9/S9 uncybered S7 if full cybered
NEW: Dwarf (max) P9/M8/S8 uncybered S7 if full cybered

OLD: Elf (max) P8/M8/S10 uncybered S8 if full cybered
NEW: Elf (max) P8/M8/S9 uncybered S8 if full cybered

OLD: Ork (max) P11/M8/S8 uncybered S6 if full cybered
NEW: Ork (max) P9/M7/S7 uncybered S6 if full cybered

OLD: Troll (max) P12/M7/S7 uncybered S5 if full cybered
NEW: Troll (max) P9/M7/S7 uncybered S5 if full cybered

At minimum stats, trolls have are superior in every way.

This does lower the caps by a point or so in some areas for the average attribute range, but also increases in others. However, the big change is really with maxed natural attributes. A troll will still have a mechanical advantage over all other races in Physical limits, but that gap isn't so drastic as it is now. Also, ALL attributes become important in the totals.

Anyway, this is all based off of current information, which is understandably vague (being Previews and all), and is conceptually more functional, IMHO.

[RHat]

Note that dice pool caps do nothing to limit min-maxing, they simply redirect it - and as a result of such caps (especially static ones), the notion of a horribly broken character would be one that meets or approaches its dice pool caps in a lot of areas; that would actually be a much worse problem to have.

[Blade]

@Cain: I'm curious, why is it a problem if players are losing successes with limits while it's not one if players are losing potential successes with dice pool caps?

[Larsine]

You haven't said why limits are better than caps. I've repeatedly shown actual play trials, which have worked smoothly. Limits are untested, so how can you be so sure they'll be superior?

Limits are far from untested. The playtest have gone on for a long time. They may be untested for you, me and a lot of other people, but saying they are untested is just plain wrong.

[phlapjack77]

I'm wondering how limits from Attributes interact with limits from gear. Will every skill have an indication of what gear is used as a limit? This seems like it could be a lot of trouble if every time you roll the dice, you have to ask "Hmmm, I'm trying to sneak (Infiltrate). Do I use my Physical Limit, or does my chameleon suit provide the limit, or does..."

[Cain]

Note that dice pool caps do nothing to limit min-maxing, they simply redirect it - and as a result of such caps (especially static ones), the notion of a horribly broken character would be one that meets or approaches its dice pool caps in a lot of areas; that would actually be a much worse problem to have.

Only if he exceeds the other characters in their specialties. But because of the cap, the min/maxer can't exceed them, at best he can equal them.

Besides which, well rounded characters are seldom a problem.

@Cain: I'm curious, why is it a problem if players are losing successes with limits while it's not one if players are losing potential successes with dice pool caps?

The biggest thing is that when you're playing a bucket of dice system, getting lots of successes is part of the fun. There's nothing wrong with this playstyle, and Sr4.5 supports it, even though it tries to deny it. If you cap a pool, players won't think about dice they're not rolling. But if they roll a lot of successes, and you take them away from them, in front of their eyes, it's no fun at all.

SR4.5 (and 5e, from all we've seen) are still bucket of dice systems. The difference is that the developers don't want to admit the system is better for gonzo, over-the-top action than it is for skullduggery. Part of the fun on playing in a system like Exalted or SR5 is that you can roll a lot of exciting successes. In my opinion, Shadowrun should just admit reality, and go for action in the vein of Feng Shui or Exalted. Embrace the power, instead of trying to patch every hole.

[Cain]

Limits are far from untested. The playtest have gone on for a long time. They may be untested for you, me and a lot of other people, but saying they are untested is just plain wrong.

I'll correct myself. Limits are a new mechanic, and only a few people have tried them. Other mechanics, like capping dice pools directly, have been tested in many games, by many different people. Since they're tried and true, we know they work. Limits haven't had a trial by fire yet.

[Thanee]

I reserve judgement until I see the complete rules, but one "problem" I see with limits is, that they do prevent extraordinary good rolls, but do not prevent extraordinary bad rolls.

Bye
Thanee

[RHat]

Only if he exceeds the other characters in their specialties. But because of the cap, the min/maxer can't exceed them, at best he can equal them.

Not exactly. If they're good in too many areas, the game basically starts to become about them because if they're able to equal or exceed other players in what are supposed to be those players chances in the spotlight, those players just flat out don't get their spotlight - especially since the variability the min-maxed character is going to mean he's probably got more options in the same scenario, meaning that the other character doesn't even get to equal him.

Having a character be impossibly fucking awesome in their speciality is not remotely close to being as much of a problem as having a character be awesome at their speciality and just as awesome at everyone else's specialities.

[tasti man LH]

I'm wondering how limits from Attributes interact with limits from gear. Will every skill have an indication of what gear is used as a limit? This seems like it could be a lot of trouble if every time you roll the dice, you have to ask "Hmmm, I'm trying to sneak (Infiltrate). Do I use my Physical Limit, or does my chameleon suit provide the limit, or does..."

In Preview #2, they do state that Gear Limits will automatically override the Inherent Limit.

And I assume, regardless on if the Inherent Limit is higher than the Gear Limit.

[Umidori]

I reserve judgement until I see the complete rules, but one "problem" I see with limits is, that they do prevent extraordinary good rolls, but do not prevent extraordinary bad rolls.

Bye
Thanee

Large dice pools already accomplish this innately. You can still roll extraordinarily badly, but you have incredibly diminished odds to do so.

~Umi

[phlapjack77]

In Preview #2, they do state that Gear Limits will automatically override the Inherent Limit.

And I assume, regardless on if the Inherent Limit is higher than the Gear Limit.

Right - but this starts to seem like a lot of trouble if every single piece of gear could or could not affect the limit. Infiltration limit = Physical Limit, UNLESS you're wearing camo suit / ruthenium coated armor / sneaky shoes / whatever. So now gear is even more fiddly, and you have to track what gear could be affecting what limit.

If Gear Limit overrides Physical Limit, you can get into situations where a PC with a high physical limit tries to infiltrate without the camo suit, because their physical limit is higher than the gear limit. But if Physical Limit overrides Gear Limit, you have a worse situation, where wearing the camo suit doesn't matter one way or another. I don't like either scenario.

[RHat]

Right - but this starts to seem like a lot of trouble if every single piece of gear could or could not affect the limit. Infiltration limit = Physical Limit, UNLESS you're wearing camo suit / ruthenium coated armor / sneaky shoes / whatever. So now gear is even more fiddly.

If Gear Limit overrides Physical Limit, you can get into situations where a PC with a high physical limit tries to infiltrate without the camo suit, because their physical limit is higher than the gear limit. But if Physical Limit overrides Gear Limit, you have a worse situation, where wearing the camo suit doesn't matter one way or another. I don't like either scenario.

My impression is more that requisite gear has its own limit that overrides the inherent limit. IE, weapons override physical limit for attacking with them, because they are required to do so. You can, however, sneak with or without the chameleon suit, so the suit would at most modify the inherent limit - like how a smartlink acts as a limit modifier for a firearm.

[phlapjack77]

My impression is more that requisite gear has its own limit that overrides the inherent limit. IE, weapons override physical limit for attacking with them, because they are required to do so. You can, however, sneak with or without the chameleon suit, so the suit would at most modify the inherent limit - like how a smartlink acts as a limit modifier for a firearm.

Yeah, that makes sense. If this is how it is in the rules I hope they make it clear what gear is requisite gear. Some things are common sense I guess (weapons/cyberdecks), but others might not be.

[RHat]

I would assume it would be those things that have some sort of a limit of their own. A weapon or cyberdeck's limit, for example, is known to come from a specific part of its stats (Accuracy or deck attributes).

[Wakshaani]

Right - but this starts to seem like a lot of trouble if every single piece of gear could or could not affect the limit. Infiltration limit = Physical Limit, UNLESS you're wearing camo suit / ruthenium coated armor / sneaky shoes / whatever. So now gear is even more fiddly, and you have to track what gear could be affecting what limit.

If Gear Limit overrides Physical Limit, you can get into situations where a PC with a high physical limit tries to infiltrate without the camo suit, because their physical limit is higher than the gear limit. But if Physical Limit overrides Gear Limit, you have a worse situation, where wearing the camo suit doesn't matter one way or another. I don't like either scenario.

Keep in mind, one stated goal is to make the character more important than the gear whenever possible. Having a chameleon suit, for instance, won't change Stompy McTrollfoot into a ninja, but if he was good at his job, it'd help. If you're a Shadowrunner with a strength of 1 who never learned how to climb a rope in gym class, getting a super-awesome pair of gloves isn't going to help when you can't actually hold your own body mass, as an example.

Focus on who they are and what they can do more than the tools in hand and you'll be in a better mindspace. Great tools don't make you better at your job, they just let you reach your potential in ways crappy ones don't.

Heck, in Generic Action Movie, you'll see time after time the hero reduced to nothing, so have to sneak around, beat up a guy, take his gun ... and then 9 times out of 10, they'll shrug, drop it someplace, and keep going without it. It's just a tool, Action Guy is the protagonist, the weapon is just a prop.

To me, that's *way* cool, but, YMMV.

[RHat]

Suddenly thinking of Iron Man 3 for some reason...

[apple]

How where things playtested? Only starting characters? Or with high level characters (dozens and hundreds of Karma) as well?

SYL

[StealthSigma]

To be fair, Limits are one solution, but they're a tricky one. If Limits are constantly coming into play, players are losing successes on a regular basis. That's no fun. If they're not coming into play often enough, they're not actually limiting anything, which means huge dice pools still rule the day. There is a middle ground, but finding it isn't going to be easy, and is probably going to end up as a matter of personal preference. Bottom line here is that we can't know if it works until we try it-- and you haven't tried it yet.

This is the major crux of my concern. By switching gear from dice pool bonuses to limit bonuses you're pretty much running towards this outcome.

--

If Gear Limit overrides Physical Limit, you can get into situations where a PC with a high physical limit tries to infiltrate without the camo suit, because their physical limit is higher than the gear limit. But if Physical Limit overrides Gear Limit, you have a worse situation, where wearing the camo suit doesn't matter one way or another. I don't like either scenario.

I think those are going to be some of the silliest first optimization characters "The naked X".

[Mäx]

Although it was the topic some pages ago and the discussion has moved on, i just wanted to ask, if anyone has thought about the old 10 point system from SR3(?) Companion for character generation.

When i remember correctly it was something like:
A = 4
B = 3
C = 2
D = 1
E = 0
and you could choose the priorities however you liked as long as the final result was 10.

Maybe this could give those who don't like the strict priorities system more variation to build their desired characters.

That is pretty nice system and definedly makes the priority system a whole lot more flexible, ill probably have to pitch this idea to the GM if i ever end up getting to play SR5.

Only concers about it is that it might make mundane humans a little too good as they can take E in Metatype and Magic categories, so they would get 10 points to distribute between 3 categories(for example A in Recources and B in both Stats and Skills). But i think i still like that better then the silliness of the standard priority system witch make it so that mundane humans have a minimum Edge of 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Sunshine]

I do like the inclusion of success limits into the core rules. They have been there before with force levels of spells and program ratings in hacking. They are now a part of the general rules, not "just" the "special" rules for magic and matrix use. It is also another incentive I can work with as a GM. I do hand out the occasional +1 to +3 Dice pool modifier for a creative idea or description and sometimes found that to be to much for the appropiate situation. Now I can give an "accuracy" bonus and/ or dice pool modifier depending on the idea or description makes something more likely to succeed or improves the chances of quality of success. For Example: Having an AR Map of the buiding with life feed updates on guard movement would improve the likelyhood of success AND the quality of success on an infiltration roll, while the map alone might only improve quality, not likelyhood. IIRC the Smartlink is now helping to improve the quality of the attack, not helping to ensure it hits.

[Umidori]

On that note, I'm curious how things like Aiming will work.

If I stop to aim, will that still give me dice as per SR4, or will it boost my Accuracy now? How about if I set up a bipod or tripod in advance, or lay prone, or both, or in some other way brace or stabilize the weapon? Or would that still be Recoil? For that matter, how will recoil interact with Accuracy? A dice modifier, or an Accuracy modifier? Will different types of ammunition (like Deathdealer or Subsonic rounds) affect Accuracy? How about the special rules for shotgun spread and flechette ammo?

Dagnabbit, I have too many questions! What about melee weapons? I assume they have Accuracy as well, but what determines that, and can it be modified? What about cybereyes? Will having higher rating eyeware adjust things like your Perception limit, via enhanced visual resolution, et cetera? What about... and what about... and this other thing, too, and... and...

*explodes*

~Umi

[StealthSigma]

That is pretty nice system and definedly makes the priority system a whole lot more flexible, ill probably have to pitch this idea to the GM if i ever end up getting to play SR5.

Only concers about it is that it might make mundane humans a little too good as they can take E in Metatype and Magic categories, so they would get 10 points to distribute between 3 categories(for example A in Recources and B in both Stats and Skills). But i think i still like that better then the silliness of the standard priority system witch make it so that mundane humans have a minimum Edge of 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Mundane humans just become AAC or ABB instead of ABC.

[Critias]

How where things playtested? Only starting characters? Or with high level characters (dozens and hundreds of Karma) as well?

SYL

Both of the above, and spots in between. There was a long-running playtest kind of "campaign" where folks matured organically, there were sessions we showed up with really high amounts of nuyen and karma, there were lots of chargen-level playtests...and those are just the ones I know of firsthand by taking part in, personally.

[apple]

Thanks. Can you give a Karma/¥ Number for the high level campaign / test and perhaps even describe how SR5 "felt" on a high power level?

SYL