SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[toturi]

I once challenged the Line Developer, Peter Taylor, to do a 20 minute SR4 character at Gencon, on video. We agreed on what an "effective" character should look like-- pool sizes, IP's, that sort of thing-- but he ended up declining because I didn't want him to use his personal crib sheets.

Just curious, why 20 minutes?

[Cain]

Just curious, why 20 minutes?

*shrug* Because he said he could do it in 15. I decided to give him some leeway.

[tasti man LH]

I would've give him 30, if I was that big of a dick...

[Thanee]

More and more it seems like many of the ideas from SR1-3 worked pretty darn well and should've been kept. Using pools (instead of (Attr + Skill - limits)) really seems like one of those ideas.

Pools are the one thing I am missing from the old editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Bull]

Pools are the one thing I am missing from the old editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

I can agree there. But they were often a headache to teach new players. They were always a huge stumbling block doing demos.

[Tycho]

well you can easily make a char in 15min, if you leave buying stuff out of the time limit.

And seeing that I now can get even more money, buying stuff with Priority is not getting any faster!

[Cain]

I can agree there. But they were often a headache to teach new players. They were always a huge stumbling block doing demos.

YMMV, but I found that calculating pools was the hard part. If you did the math for them, using the pools was fairly easy.

[Larsine]

YMMV, but I found that calculating pools was the hard part. If you did the math for them, using the pools was fairly easy.

Add 3 numbers, divide by 2, round up??? How on earth can that be difficult?

[Blade]

The problems I had with SR3 dice pool was to keep track of them as a GM, especially when there were multiple opponents with big pool size difference.

[Black Swan]

Add 3 numbers, divide by 2, round up??? How on earth can that be difficult?

Apparently difficult. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I too agree that the pools were excellent, and teaching it to new players was simple. Set aside the character's dice pool in a seperate colour. When they take dice from the pool, they remove them from play. And when it refreshed, you would add to that pool again. It was freakin' easy to teach. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Samoth]

What I don't get is the progression of special attribute as you continue to pay more into Race.

Going from E to D, Human gains 3 points. For every rank up from that point on, they gain 2. (ie 0, 3, 5, 7, 9).

For Elf it goes 0, 3, 6, 8 (+3, +3, +2). Ork goes 0, 4, 7 (+4, +3). Dwarf goes 1, 4, 7 (+3, +3, +3). Troll goes 0, 5 (+5).

There's really no rhyme or reason to these improvements. I understand the desire to keep them low, because otherwise you end up with points you can't spend (which already happens at the high end if you're mundane), but honestly I'd rather have a progression that makes some sort of sense and just a "putting this rank on this race is a dumb idea sometimes" type of deal.

I mean look at attributes. +2, +2, +4, +4. It makes sense, and each step up is worth more than the one before. Magic similarly has each rank worth a bigger increase than the one before it, by mixing in skills and spells. Skills also go up on an increasing scale (+4, +6/2, +8/3, +10/5) where each new rank adds more than the one before it. Money does as well, and is the most obvious about it (roughly doubling money gained per rank).

The racial special stat bonus seems to be an outlier in that it doesn't progress at any predictable rate. For it to line up more with how Attributes work I'd expect something like Human going 0->2->4->8->12. Elf going 0->2->6->10. Dwarf going 1->5->9. Ork going 0->4->8. Troll going 0->4. Even if attributes and special attributes aren't considered to be worth exactly the same (so the exact same progression doesn't apply), I'd still expect something along those same lines as a logical progression. The way it is currently makes it seem like the first few points are dirt cheap while points above that are increasingly more expensive... which would fit with traditional karma costs of improving attributes, except that isn't reflected in the normal attribute rules.

How about this: Human A, Magic B. You have 9 special attribute points but only 7 usable. What happens to the left over two points?

[Black Swan]

How about this: Human A, Magic B. You have 9 special attribute points but only 7 usable. What happens to the left over two points?

My suggestion would be to not choose it in that order if you don't want it to go to waste.

But they may have rules for unused points in that situation, know one really knows.

[Larsine]

How about this: Human A, Magic B. You have 9 special attribute points but only 7 usable. What happens to the left over two points?

Get Exceptional Attribute and/or Lucky to increase your limits, or choose differently. Nothing stops you from choosing poorly, except common sense.

Even worse will be Human A, Adept B. You will have 9 special attributes, but can only use 5 of those.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You are going to have to help me out on this one (my brain is jelly right now). Where in SR4A does that show up?

By Default (in SR4A), there is no cap on DP's (it is an optional rule, afdter all), therefore you may increase your DP's to your heart's content. Nothing stops you from doing so. Since that was deemed unacceptable for the new addition, they had to come up with different mechanics to sell it. I think they chose poorly. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

6 is really stupid force to cast a spell at, either you go up to 7 for no extra drain or you drop down to 5 so you get 1 less drain.
Or attleast thats what everyone with brains did in SR4, as SR5 has a general round up rule that might change.

Ummmmm... Sometimes (Often?) the difference between Force 6 and Force 7 is that the Drain goes from Stun to Physical. For me, Taking Physical Damage for casting a Spell is downright stupid unless you have absolutely no other choice. And sometimes that extra point of Force Matters. *shrug*

[Seerow]

How about this: Human A, Magic B. You have 9 special attribute points but only 7 usable. What happens to the left over two points?

First, I'm just gonna point out that's what already happens in the system as it currently stands. Under my suggestion for a more logical progression, Human A would have 12 points. Which is more than you're ever going to be able to actually spend since apparently minimum magic is 2. I'm guessing they capped at 9 because 9 lets you raise edge from 2 to 7 and magic from 2 to 6, with nothing left over. Which is fine, but they make it cost too much to get there. If you only want someone to get stats they can actually use, don't let a human pick priority A. (ie cap it at priority B with 8 points). Alternatively, as others pointed out, picking race (human) and magic both that high are a bad idea, people simply won't do it because it wastes points.

Alternative solution: Let any special attribute points be rolled over to regular attributes if the specials are capped. So a Human A and Adept B gets maxed edge, and then the 7 leftoverpoints gets added to your regular attributes (which at this point are likely C or D, so you could use those anyway)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't know anyone who can make an SR character with the point buy system that can do it in less than 2 hours and be happy with it.

I have done it (Often - when I get an idea, I put it together just to see how weell it works out)) in less than 30 Minutes, and if it is a quick pickup game, in less than 10. Of course, in quick character Gen, I generally have less than 4 BP in gear, to make things easy (Gun(s), Armor, some ammo, and maybe a few other things, DONE...). Often these are for those One-Shots that have occurred over the years. Regardless of the Character Generation System, I often take much longer if the character is meant to span multiple campaigns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And of course, there are always the Archetypes, which I have played on more than one occasion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[thorya]

I don't know anyone who can make an SR character with the point buy system that can do it in less than 2 hours and be happy with it.

Testing that now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Ummmmm... Sometimes (Often?) the difference between Force 6 and Force 7 is that the Drain goes from Stun to Physical. For me, Taking Physical Damage for casting a Spell is downright stupid unless you have absolutely no other choice.

Who said anything about taking damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Seerow]

Who said anything about taking damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Most starting characters have a drain pool of like 9-10 dice. Maybe as high as 12-14 on the outside. It takes a few initiations under your belt before you can reliably take no damage from drain. Especially from spells with higher drain codes. That's going to go double with SR5 making drain based off force rather than half force.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Who said anything about taking damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

The Magician I play currently still takes Drain, even if it is nickles and dimes (anything with Drain DV 2 or less I am okay on, Most of his spells are Drain of +1 to +3 adjustment), and he generally only casts at Force 3-4 (Generally all he really needs, with Force 5/6 being his Crossover from Stun to Physical). Put him in a Background Count and he reliably takes drain. Lagos Sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

How about this: Human A, Magic B. You have 9 special attribute points but only 7 usable. What happens to the left over two points?

Burnt out mage, two essence worth of cyber.

[RHat]

Burnt out mage, two essence worth of cyber.

What does that have to do with the left over points? You maximum magic would be reduced...

[Black Swan]

Pools are the one thing I am missing from the old editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

I suppose you could always use dice pools in SR5. It would be pretty easy. All you need to do is come up with an equation (possibly something similar to the limit equations?) to determine your dice pools. Then, any actions have a base rating (Skill Rating for example) of dice that you would roll, and you could add dice from your pool, but you could not exceed either the skill rating or the associated attribute rating. This, of course, would require some tweaking; but that would be the gist of it.

[Black Swan]

What does that have to do with the left over points? You maximum magic would be reduced...

I'm still trying to figure that one out, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)