SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, one easy houserule option that's available is to go back to the old rules for combat pool and such - if you're not worried about dice pool inflation, you could simply change Limits to Pools.

Stealth: Edge is a luck mechanic, pure and simple. What is the Edge reroll mechanic if not deciding to get lucky?

Why would I want to go back to the Pools of previous editions? I was glad to see them go the way of extinction. *shrug*
Besides, Deciding to be Lucky is pretty dumb, don't you think? You make it sound like it is a predictable occurance. Kind of counter to the actual terminology, don''t you think?

Sure, it is a Mechanic that you can use to TRY and get lucky, not to guarantee it. And as such, it works great in SR4A, where there are no Limits in place. You can get lucky in the Dice Roll itself, or you can TRY (And I emphasize that again) to influence that Luck by either Rolling more Dice (Spending Edge prior) or Rerolling Failed Dice (After the Fact).

But see, here is the difference... Edge expenditure shpouild NEVER guarantee Luck (and in SR4A, it does not). Unfortunately, becuase of Limits, that is exactly what it does in SR5, and it punishes you for it to boot (Because you HAVE to spend a resource to benefit from that capricious thing called Luck).

[RHat]

So Edge in SR4, which is a stat that is the Luck Stat, and is a resource that can be spent to be lucky, is....fine....?

Your argument makes no sense when compared to the existing rules which you have no problems with.

I think the issue lies in the fact that in SR4, you CAN get those really lucky rolls without the use of Edge - like the time I rolled something like 9 hits from 11 dice on a Judge Intentions test.

[Nal0n]

Anyone with me on just how disadvantaged AGI goes?

Most "Mental-Skills" are Logic based ... so LOG being *2 in mental limit.
Most "Social-Skills" are Charisma based ... so CHA being *2 ind social limit.
Most "Combat-Skills" are Agility based ... so Agility is no matter in their limit ... WTF?

[Draco18s]

Most "Combat-Skills" are Agility based ... so Agility is no matter in their limit ... WTF?

Because Agility is already overloaded.

I think the issue lies in the fact that in SR4, you CAN get those really lucky rolls without the use of Edge - like the time I rolled something like 9 hits from 11 dice on a Judge Intentions test.

My point is, TJ's complaint is just as applicable to the other uses of edge, which he has no problems with. Either have an argument that makes sense, regardless of the exact mechanic, or shut your trap. "I don't like that you can choose to be lucky" applies just as validly to the other uses of Edge as it does to this new one. Either deal with it, or find a better argument.

It's like saying, "I don't like this room, it's painted white" when you were just fine with every other white-painted room you've been shown.

[RHat]

Why would I want to go back to the Pools of previous editions? I was glad to see them go the way of extinction. *shrug*
Besides, Deciding to be Lucky is pretty dumb, don't you think? You make it sound like it is a predictable occurance. Kind of counter to the actual terminology, don''t you think?

Sure, it is a Mechanic that you can use to TRY and get lucky, not to guarantee it. And as such, it works great in SR4A, where there are no Limits in place. You can get lucky in the Dice Roll itself, or you can TRY (And I emphasize that again) to influence that Luck by either Rolling more Dice (Spending Edge prior) or Rerolling Failed Dice (After the Fact).

But see, here is the difference... Edge expenditure shpouild NEVER guarantee Luck (and in SR4A, it does not). Unfortunately, becuase of Limits, that is exactly what it does in SR5, and it punishes you for it to boot (Because you HAVE to spend a resource to benefit from that capricious thing called Luck).

Just a suggestion. An alternative would be to come up with some way to use hits that go over your limit somehow - like being able to spend hits for special effect or something.

But I don't agree that deciding to be lucky is "dumb". I love mechanics like Edge, because they give players serious narrative control; I'd actually like to take it farther.

[Epicedion]

Because Agility is already overloaded.

Except most Agility skills are variations on one theme -- shooting people. Charisma just doesn't have 5 skills that cover slight variations on Negotiation.

[Black Swan]

So Edge in SR4, which is a stat that is the Luck Stat, and is a resource that can be spent to be lucky, is....fine....?

Your argument makes no sense when compared to the existing rules which you have no problems with.

His argument makes perfect sense to me, so I will try and help you understand it:

What he is saying is that in SR4, you could manage to get lucky by rolling a very good result, and you could use it; or you could force the issue by spending a point of Edge.

Now, in SR5, the only way you can luck out on a roll is if you spend that point of Edge.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So Edge in SR4, which is a stat that is the Luck Stat, and is a resource that can be spent to be lucky, is....fine....?

Your argument makes no sense when compared to the existing rules which you have no problems with.

Edge use in SR4A DOES NOT GUARANTEE ANY LUCK AT ALL... all it does is increases your CHANCES of it having an effect. Quite different that what it does in SR5. *shrug*

The fact that you cannot see that is mind-boggling to me. *shrug*

Example - I have a DP of 12
In SR4A, I can Roll the Dice and hope for the best (generally what I choose to do), or I can add Edge (Before or After) to try and manipulate chance to be in my favor. Either way, the number of hits I get determines the effect. So, I roll my 12 Dice, and get 10 Hits (Really freaking amazing)... I apply all my hits for a really freaking amazing result. Yay Me, Fortune has smiled upon me with all of its benevolent Glory.

In SR5... I roll my 12 Dice... I get 10 Hits, but ooops, I only have a Limit of 5, so Now, I am reduced to 5 Hits (my really freaking amazing success is trivialized) unless I am willing to pay a price for Luck choosing to smile upon my action. I am not really freaking amazing unless I pay that price, so I am therefore punished for making a really good roll, because I must now PAY A PENALTY for making that really freaking amazing dice roll.

THAT IS STUPID...

[Black Swan]

Why would I want to go back to the Pools of previous editions? I was glad to see them go the way of extinction. *shrug*

I think you are in the minority on this one, but I might be wrong. *shrug*

[Shemhazai]

(Agility) is not a factor in limits.

Perhaps in physical tasks, trolls win, elves lose? I hope that gear makes all of this irrelevant.

As I said, I'll grant that they're undercosted. That is very different from too valuable.

I think that attributes contribute too many dice to pools. I hope that higher skill maximums help to balance that.

[Bigity]

A page behind here

[Draco18s]

Wow, three more replies while I was editing my post.

THAT IS STUPID...

Then suggest something that isn't just as stupid or worse. Dice pool caps are stupid. Now my position is just as well argued as yours.

[Black Swan]

"I don't like that you can choose to be lucky" applies just as validly to the other uses of Edge as it does to this new one. Either deal with it, or find a better argument.

Unless I misread your post, I think you are missing the argument completely.

[Epicedion]

Wow, three more replies while I was editing my post.



Then suggest something that isn't just as stupid or worse. Dice pool caps are stupid. Now my position is just as well argued as yours.

I suggested several things that I think would work pretty well, but I'm just a mathematician and not a magical game designer.

[Black Swan]

Wow, three more replies while I was editing my post.



Then suggest something that isn't just as stupid or worse. Dice pool caps are stupid. Now my position is just as well argued as yours.

Agreed. It's not enough to complain. You have to want to be part of the solution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RHat]

Perhaps in physical tasks, trolls win, elves lose? I hope that gear makes all of this irrelevant.

I think that attributes contribute too many dice to pools. I hope that higher skill maximums help to balance that.

Part of my issue with this line of reasoning may be in the way that it is expressed - it generally comes across as someone suggesting that it is a factual point that attributes make too large a contribution, as though it were some sort of accident or error rather than simply a matter of what a person prefers.

It is a little strange that Elves won't trend towards better limits, but a higher limit doesn't make you better, it's just potential.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But I don't agree that deciding to be lucky is "dumb". I love mechanics like Edge, because they give players serious narrative control; I'd actually like to take it farther.

I think that you miss my point a tad bit. The decision (in game) to tempt fate (by spending Edge) is well and good, but that expenditure should not be a guarantee of success. And fortunately for me, in SR4Aa, it isn't. However, You can NEVER just get lucky in SR5, because you MUST PAY A RESOURCE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. That is just resource management at that point. You are now relegated to the commonness of the masses.

Hell, in SR4A, the Common Guard can get Lucky (because teh GM is runing HOT that night on his rolls), and actually hurt the Combat Troll. Not so much in SR5, because he may never actually have that resource to activate that luck. And without that Resource, well, he is just SOL. Whose brilliant idea was that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow, three more replies while I was editing my post.

Then suggest something that isn't just as stupid or worse. Dice pool caps are stupid. Now my position is just as well argued as yours.

Make sensible characters? We don't seem to have the problems that YOU seem to complain about in game. *shrug*

[Cain]

So Edge in SR4, which is a stat that is the Luck Stat, and is a resource that can be spent to be lucky, is....fine....?

Your argument makes no sense when compared to the existing rules which you have no problems with.

Edge in Sr4.5 is already overpowered. It needs to be reined in, not expanded. Edge does too much, provides too much benefit at high levels, and enables some nasty "Nova" rounds which can break the game if not controlled. Making Edge do even more is just crazy.

I'm not allowed to give examples anymore, but let's just say that it's been demonstrated many times that a high Edge can break the game in several different ways.

[Draco18s]

Make sensible characters? We don't seem to have the problems that YOU seem to complain about in game. *shrug*

I don't have the problems you complain about.

Golly gee.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agreed. It's not enough to complain. You have to want to be part of the solution. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My arguments are pretty well known here on the boards (over the last several years), but they tend to be discounted by some here as something akin to a "Gentleman's Agreement" that we apparently have at our table to not break the game. It really is just this simple... DO NOT TRY TO BREAK THE GAME. *shrug*

[RHat]

I suggested several things that I think would work pretty well, but I'm just a mathematician and not a magical game designer.

Not bad suggestions, either, though there's some issues in terms of player psychology (especially in terms of just not making as much intuitive sense) as well as the general issues that come up when stuff is being halved.

[StealthSigma]

Stealth: Edge is a luck mechanic, pure and simple. What is the Edge reroll mechanic if not deciding to get lucky?

You ignored a keyword in my post.

SR4.5 does not require the use of edge to be lucky. That is the defining line.

--

My point is, TJ's complaint is just as applicable to the other uses of edge, which he has no problems with. Either have an argument that makes sense, regardless of the exact mechanic, or shut your trap. "I don't like that you can choose to be lucky" applies just as validly to the other uses of Edge as it does to this new one. Either deal with it, or find a better argument.

The only use of edge where it is only possible to gaurantee luck through edge is through HoG which is a burning of edge rather than spending a point of edge.

[Epicedion]

Edge in Sr4.5 is already overpowered. It needs to be reined in, not expanded. Edge does too much, provides too much benefit at high levels, and enables some nasty "Nova" rounds which can break the game if not controlled. Making Edge do even more is just crazy.

I'm not allowed to give examples anymore, but let's just say that it's been demonstrated many times that a high Edge can break the game in several different ways.

If I'm not mistaken, Edge debuted in one of the early FASA products -- the earliest I've seen it is MechWarrior 2nd Edition (1991), though I heard it was in 1st (1986?). Problem is, it didn't transfer well between variable target and fixed target systems (it used to be primarily useful to make extreme longshot rolls somewhat plausible, but still unlikely). Karma Pool was slightly better (a la SR3) since you had to spend points on an increasing scale (3 dice = 6 KP) so it was primarily used for botched roll recovery (but had the nasty habit of stockpiling awkwardly in advanced characters).

[Black Swan]

My arguments are pretty well known here on the boards (over the last several years), but they tend to be discounted by some here as something akin to a "Gentleman's Agreement" that we apparently have at our table to not break the game. It really is just this simple... DO NOT TRY TO BREAK THE GAME. *shrug*

One problem is that most games are almost always inevitably broken in one way or another already.