SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[Epicedion]

Hardly my baby. The credit really goes to whoever came up with the SR4 spellcasting system, with additional credit to whoever thought to extend that system to hacking.

A bunch of us proposed a number of systems, and limits was the option that offered the most. My money was on a double dice pool system similar to the one in SR3, but It didn't have the same range, functionality, or usefulness as limits.

Along those lines, calling it my system is kinda like calling this thread Seerow's thread. I'll take credit as a contributor, but it's hardly "my" system. What makes you think it is?

Again, the limits in the SR4 spellcasting system are nothing like the limits being put in SR5 in general, since you don't get to set your own limit (within a range based on attributes) with respect to some mechanical risk vs effectiveness system (eg, Drain).

Limits do nothing but hamper effectiveness, because apparently the system sees characters being too effective. So instead of redefining what it takes to be effective, or rescaling how characters attain power, they've introduced a mechanical hurdle that just chops it off at a certain point. It's bad game design -- it takes a problem in the system and solves it by introducing another problem in the system. Limits are pretty simply an Edge Tax for being too good. It looks like a tax, and it smells like a tax, and no one likes taxes.

[Wakshaani]

I'd actually swap attributes and skills in that build. I'd probably get bigger dicepools with 20 in atrributes and only 18 in skills even though it meant I had a lot of skills at 1 or 2. Honestly E anything is really hard, for a metahuman mage I'd go E resources since you an get by with a armor jacket and a pack of smokes. So A magic, B atrributes C skills, D race E resources. Hard to say it depends on how close you are trying to get to remaking a old archetype or making a new one under gneric concept, elven mage. Honestly I'd be tempted to go B magic, to get A in attributes for a lot of mages and use the special attribute boost to get me back to 6 magic. Dropping 3 spells, 2 skill levels and 1 magic which can be made up from a different resource pool seeems worth it to me for those 4 attribute points.

Possibly.

I'm curious to see what you coud put together, using what of the Chargen rules are currently released. Obviously, you won't be able to do *everything*, but I'm curious to see what happens when we go from chatting to a bit of pen to paper. (The latter effect taught us a lot about Trolls in early chargen states, for instance. One thing to say something, another to break out paper and go, "Man. Ouch.")

Be willing to make a go of it?

[Nath]

I'm curious to see what you coud put together, using what of the Chargen rules are currently released.

It seems difficult without knowing the cost and effect of cyber/bioware and adept powers. You can try one mundane, non-cybered face, or a mage (though we won't know how good he will be at tackling Drain before seeing the spell list and actual Drain formulae).

[Shinobi Killfist]

Possibly.

I'm curious to see what you coud put together, using what of the Chargen rules are currently released. Obviously, you won't be able to do *everything*, but I'm curious to see what happens when we go from chatting to a bit of pen to paper. (The latter effect taught us a lot about Trolls in early chargen states, for instance. One thing to say something, another to break out paper and go, "Man. Ouch.")

Be willing to make a go of it?

Its hard to say without the books. I don't know the value of certain skills and if they changed etc. But using hero builder I slapped in the points making him way over 400 BP for a A attributes, B magic, C elf, D skills, E resources character. I almost never build elves and I think priority hits metahumans pretty hard but below is what I put together in like 5 minutes. So on the side, damn priority is quicker. Left out spells as I have no idea what they are yet. But Fireball, levitate, chatoic world, heal and 3 others seem a decent pick.

Edit to add I am still unsure on how the skill groups work part of why I went with D skills. Is it 28 skill points + 2 points in skill groups or is it 28 skill points 2 of which can be groups? CAn I buy a skill gorup and then break it up with my remaining points. For example lets say I have A skills can I take 1 in 10 different skill groups and then use the 46 or 36 points left to bump up specific skills in those groups? Also without seeing advancement costs it is hard to make a character for anything that is meant to be a long term campaign. Not that it effects this build but other things we don't know are order of operation issues. My main thought is the exceptional attribute quality. So qualities is step 4 so I already spent my attributes in step 2, so awesome my stat now has 7 as its max in magic, well do get it to 7 do I need to spend karma or do I could I have saved a stat point from an earlier step.

[ Spoiler ]

Elven Mage (Elf Magician)
B 4, A 5, R 3, S 3, C 8, I 4, L 3, W 5, E 3, Ess 6, M 6, Init 7, IP 1
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 10/11
Disposable Commlink Condition Monitor: 9
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 4/4
Skills: Assensing 2, Banishing 2, Binding 2, Computer 1, Con 1, Counterspelling 4, Enchanting 2, Etiquette 1, Infiltration 1, Perception 2, Pistols 3, Ritual Spellcasting 1, Spellcasting 4, Summoning 4
Knowledge Skills: English N
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Magician
Gear:
Armor Jacket
Disposable Commlink
Identity: Specify Name with Fake SIN (2), Low Lifestyle
Weapons:
Ares Predator IV [Pistols, DV 5P vs. B-1, SA, 15 ©] with Smartgun System, Internal
Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 8P vs. I]
Unarmed Strike [Unarmed, DV 2S vs. I]

[ Spoiler ]

[Cain]

You nailed it. I like to think of Edge (and previously the Karma Pool and burning Karma) as the result of experience rather than luck. You can buy the Lucky quality to add just one point to Edge.

The problem with the Karma Pool was was when you had earned 200 or so karma, and had so much, you became hard to challenge. Edge has a similar problem, but it can be front-loaded, so starting characters can be nigh-unstoppable.

[Epicedion]

The problem with the Karma Pool was was when you had earned 200 or so karma, and had so much, you became hard to challenge. Edge has a similar problem, but it can be front-loaded, so starting characters can be nigh-unstoppable.

The problem with karma pool was that it eventually became a nigh-limitless resource for rerolls. Even at 20 karma pool it was only worth 5 extra dice on one roll, with some change. But you could reroll failures on 20 separate rolls.

[Mäx]

Not to mention treating Edge purely as luck cause some metaphysical problems regarding the reason why humans would get one point more than the other metatypes.

1 point is nothing, mundane humans can't start with edge lower then 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And yes i know i mentioned this earlier, but i think this silliness need to be mentioned more often.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1 point is nothing, mundane humans can't start with edge lower then 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And yes i know i mentioned this earlier, but i think this silliness need to be mentioned more often.

Indeed, that is just crazy.

[Shinobi Killfist]

1 point is nothing, mundane humans can't start with edge lower then 5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And yes i know i mentioned this earlier, but i think this silliness need to be mentioned more often.

Every character creation system has its silly points. But yes this one is dang silly.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I know this has been touched on, but assuming there isn't something we are missing how many people would let the mystic adept as shown into a game? Compared to an adept he loses 4 attribute points and 12 karma but gains 10 spells 2 magic skills at 5 the ability to cast spells,rituals, enchantment stuff and summon and bind spirits. IMO unless there is a HUGE balancing factor they are totally broken compared to either adepts or pure mages and mages were never weak in Shadowrun. As is its an instant not in my game.

[Shemhazai]

I know this has been touched on, but assuming there isn't something we are missing how many people would let the mystic adept as shown into a game? Compared to an adept he loses 4 attribute points and 12 karma but gains 10 spells 2 magic skills at 5 the ability to cast spells,rituals, enchantment stuff and summon and bind spirits. IMO unless there is a HUGE balancing factor they are totally broken compared to either adepts or pure mages and mages were never weak in Shadowrun. As is its an instant not in my game.

They lose astral projection and must buy astral perception with power points as compared to magicians, but still seem to be almost the best of both worlds. I'm guessing that karma costs to raise things is much higher after character creation. Better get the increased attribute to start with Magic at 7.

[Cain]

The problem with karma pool was that it eventually became a nigh-limitless resource for rerolls. Even at 20 karma pool it was only worth 5 extra dice on one roll, with some change. But you could reroll failures on 20 separate rolls.

Getting there was always the issue, since you couldn't just start with a karma pool of 20. You had to earn it the hard way. Additionally, I used the graduated karma pool rule, so the costs were constantly going up. It didn't stop the issue, but it did slow it down. Edge, being front-loadable, breaks things much more quickly and is much easier to get a hold of.

[Bull]

1 point is nothing, mundane humans can't start with edge lower then 5
And yes i know i mentioned this earlier, but i think this silliness need to be mentioned more often.

I'm confused. Why can't a Mundane Human start with an edge of 2 (Priority E) or 4 (Priority D)?

[bannockburn]

Because then he wouldn't be mundane anymore, since every priority except E will give him a magic attribute. And with D he gains 3 special attribute points, added to his 2 base Edge.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, can he simply not spend them and instead, seeing how it's SUPPOSED TO BE KARMA use it on something else?
Like starting with the Karma for these Points into the Game to do stuff like raising a skill above char generation limit of 6 or what the frag kind of Bulldrek you need Karma for in game?

[KarmaInferno]

They aren't Karma. They are Special Attribute Points. If you don't use em you lose them.

You get an allocation of 25 Karma later in the character creation process, expandable to 50 Karma by taking Negative Qualities. Those you CAN, apparantly, save for in-game use,


-k

[Not of this Worl...]

The problem with Karma Pool / Edge has always been the accumulation of points rather than spending of points. In SR2-3 I always simplified this to "Permanently burn 1 point of Karma Pool to change the fate of the dice". In effect they could choose any use of Karma including the Hand of G-d rule just by burning 1 point. Because more than super weapons, attributes or incredible skills, a high enough Karma Pool would break the mechanics of the game.

[Mäx]

I'm confused. Why can't a Mundane Human start with an edge of 2 (Priority E) or 4 (Priority D)?

You can't take E in race if you wan't to be mundane, you have to take at least D witch is 3 special attribute points for human.
So thats edge of 5(2+3).

[Bull]

You can't take E in race if you wan't to be mundane, you have to take at least D witch is 3 special attribute points for human.
So thats edge of 5(2+3).

Yeah, I haven't actually slept more than a few hours at a time for the last week or so, and I'm in super overtime crunch mode for my Amish Taxi Day Job Flaw, my Shadowrun Missions job, and trying to squeeze in time to read forums, proof PDFs that are coming out, prep for Origins, and a few other things. And maybe sleep and eat in between, if I remember. Somehow I completely forgot about the human's innate bonus.

And, technically, there's nothing stopping you from taking Magic at D and then just not taking the magic points. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You don't HAVE to spend the points you're given. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yeah. Each level of whatever has a relative value, and apparently that's just how that shook up for the priority system. It's good to be human. Just ask Humanis.

There's always a quirk with these things. SR1-2 it meant that Mages were always Millionaires, since Magic and Resources were tied together.

The SR5 version of the Companion will be out soon enough, and then everyone can stop bitching about this and bitch about how we screwed BPs or Karmagen up instead. Personally, I think we need to add in a couple more chargen options. I have an idea for one that uses M&Ms. It's particularly rough for players who like to munch on candy during game sessions though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

[Larsine]

The SR5 version of the Companion will be out soon enough, and then everyone can stop bitching about this and bitch about how we screwed BPs or Karmagen up instead. Personally, I think we need to add in a couple more chargen options. I have an idea for one that uses M&Ms. It's particularly rough for players who like to munch on candy during game sessions though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We use M&Ms (or other sweets) for combat. It's fun when you shoot a bad guy, and get to eat the sweet, but not fun when you accidentally grab your own PC-M&Ms.

[Bull]

We use M&Ms (or other sweets) for combat. It's fun when you shoot a bad guy, and get to eat the sweet, but not fun when you accidentally grab your own PC-M&Ms.

There was an old Knights of the Dinner Table issue where this one gaming group uses bowls of M&Ms for their PCs Hit Points, and one of the players keeps sneaking them from other players' bowls to munch on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

The SR5 version of the Companion will be out soon enough, and then everyone can stop bitching about this and bitch about how we screwed BPs or Karmagen up instead. Personally, I think we need to add in a couple more chargen options. I have an idea for one that uses M&Ms. It's particularly rough for players who like to munch on candy during game sessions though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

While I generally agree with you, that all the moaning and wailing and gnashing of teeth is not particularly helpful, I also think that it would be good to acknowledge that some of these are legitimate concerns. Snark isn't helpful either, in my opinion, even if good natured. It can come across as very arrogant in an internet setting.
I'm not saying that I personally received it as such, but it is a heated debate for some reason and could easily be interpreted wrongly.

On another matter: Sweets as Edge works really well.
Eat one when you spend one, get one back from your GM when you regenerate.
Just don't eat too much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[thorya]

The SR5 version of the Companion will be out soon enough, and then everyone can stop bitching about this and bitch about how we screwed BPs or Karmagen up instead. Personally, I think we need to add in a couple more chargen options. I have an idea for one that uses M&Ms. It's particularly rough for players who like to munch on candy during game sessions though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bull

But once the books out, I won't be able to make up things to complain.

Like, I'm super pissed that the SR5 version of Unwired has rules for mages using magic through the matrix and that spirits now have the spirit power Hack, which lets them beat any computer system.

And the quality, "Well Placed Bribe"? Not only is it overpowered that I get 50 karma just for giving the GM food weekly, and that's in the rules, it completely ruins all the characters I had planned since I can't take "Well Placed Bribe" with the "I win" quality. And why does my character's quality require that I do something in the real world? Are you trying to dictate how our game group operates! What if I want to bring Cheese dip and chips to the game? Why is pizza given priority?

I'm not even going to buy SR5 now. It will save me money on pizza and M&M's. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[thorya]

My arguments are pretty well known here on the boards (over the last several years), but they tend to be discounted by some here as something akin to a "Gentleman's Agreement" that we apparently have at our table to not break the game. It really is just this simple... DO NOT TRY TO BREAK THE GAME. *shrug*

Tymeaus Jalynsfein, I'm surprised you've been so down on 5th, since you've vehemently defended 4th edition so many times and repeatedly said that there's nothing wrong with SR4 and that it works perfectly when other people raise issues.
Won't everything just run smooth at your table because you guys aren't concerned with pushing the limits of the game (no pun intended)? Maybe the limits address something that wasn't a problem, because of your style of play, but then won't you just use optional rules/house rules as you do now and not have a problem?

p.s. Not being sarcastic here. I really am confused how your complaints about 5e are any different than the complaints about 4e you dismiss, except that they're yours. *shrug*

[Shemhazai]

SR1-2 it meant that Mages were always Millionaires, since Magic and Resources were tied together.

I wish... I took the 50 spell points and 150,000 nuyen. That was the most I could get. My mundane teammates took the million.