SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[Bull]

I wish... I took the 50 spell points and 150,000 nuyen. That was the most I could get. My mundane teammates took the million.

How did you only get 150,000¥? In both Shadowrun 1 and Shadowrun 2, under the Priority System Resources A gave you 50 Force Points to buy spells* and 1,000,000¥ (I'm looking at the SR2 Priority chart right now).

SR3 Switched it up and gave you Spell Points** automatically based on whether your were a Full Magician (Priority A) or Aspected Magician (Priority B). So Magicians couldn't take the 1,000,000¥ in SR3.

For those not familiar with older editions:

* In SR 1 and SR 2, you purchased spells by both their Force AND by their Damage Code (Light, Moderate, Serious, Deadly) and could only cast it at that level. So if you learned a single target fire spell (Flamethrower) at Force 6 with a S (Serious) Damage code, you always cast it at 6S. YOu could never "pull it" to do a 4M damage code, or punch it up to do a 6D. So it wasn't uncommon for some spells to be learned at multiple values.

** In SR 3, you still purchased at a specific Force rating, but you could now "pull" the Force rating and cast at a lower one if you wanted, and you got to choose the damage code. Hence the need for fewer Spell points.

Bull

[Larsine]

How did you only get 150,000¥? In both Shadowrun 1 and Shadowrun 2, under the Priority System Resources A gave you 50 Force Points to buy spells* and 1,000,000¥ (I'm looking at the SR2 Priority chart right now).

You would have to use priority A to be a human magician in SR1.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein, I'm surprised you've been so down on 5th, since you've vehemently defended 4th edition so many times and repeatedly said that there's nothing wrong with SR4 and that it works perfectly when other people raise issues.
Won't everything just run smooth at your table because you guys aren't concerned with pushing the limits of the game (no pun intended)? Maybe the limits address something that wasn't a problem, because of your style of play, but then won't you just use optional rules/house rules as you do now and not have a problem?

p.s. Not being sarcastic here. I really am confused how your complaints about 5e are any different than the complaints about 4e you dismiss, except that they're yours. *shrug*

I can answer that. I refuse to pay money for an "Improvement" that is not. Same reason I never bought into DnD4.
I see it as a Grab for more of my money, and sadly, I do not have a lot of money; so asking me to throw it at a new edition, an edition that I see as flawed beyond compare (Limits just piss me off, in this case), is ludicrous. And if the solution is to use Houserules to fix the ixsue of SR5, why am I purchasing SR5? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. SR4A works just fine, and with almost no Houserules/Optional Rules. *shrug*

On Limits: I Love the feeling of when you get an amazing roll. In SR5, regardless of whether my limit is average (more likely than not) or High-end, I will lose out on amazing successes when they happen unless I PAY to have that amazing result. That is just stupid, in my opinion. There are other things in the previews that I do not like, but suffice it to say that I think the design team went way off the reservation on this edition. *shrug*

[DireRadiant]

I for one will wait till I read the whole new edition and all the changes before forming my opinion.

It was either limits or pool caps. I'm ok with either one.

I'm looking forward to seeing the effects of some other changes, which I think will be far more significant then Limits.

[Stahlseele]

Pool Caps would have been the better option, as the intended target was, again, to reduce the number of dice rolled as far as i can gather . .

[DireRadiant]

Pool Caps would have been the better option, as the intended target was, again, to reduce the number of dice rolled as far as i can gather . .

I don't think it actually limits the total number of dice you can get, I foresee some very large dice pools. I think it increases the cost of getting a large pool, either by having to improve your Limit, or by paying Edge to break Limits frequently.

[StealthSigma]

I for one will wait till I read the whole new edition and all the changes before forming my opinion.

Which requires purchasing or otherwise acquiring the edition. That is the crux. There are people like Tymaeus or myself, who simply will not even look at SR5 because we've heard enough that we don't like that it doesn't justify the expense or effort of looking for it.

[Bull]

You would have to use priority A to be a human magician in SR1.

Ahh, right. I didn't dig into SR1. Human Mages started with 400,000¥ and 50 Force points. Metahuman sMages tarted with 20,000¥ and 20 Force points. I forgot how boned metas got in the old system.

[Stahlseele]

I don't think it actually limits the total number of dice you can get, I foresee some very large dice pools. I think it increases the cost of getting a large pool, either by having to improve your Limit, or by paying Edge to break Limits frequently.

Pool Caps mean a direct reduction in rolled dice, as nobody would bother going above maximum.
This frees up ressources for other things so broadening the characters horizen considerably.

Limits as they are now simply mean that people with high dice pools and lucky würfel get boned.
It means people will still go for big pools to reliably hit the limit cap anyway.

[CeeJay]

On Limits: I Love the feeling of when you get an amazing roll. In SR5, regardless of whether my limit is average (more likely than not) or High-end, I will lose out on amazing successes when they happen unless I PAY to have that amazing result. That is just stupid, in my opinion. There are other things in the previews that I do not like, but suffice it to say that I think the design team went way off the reservation on this edition. *shrug*

Well, for what it's worth, my prediction is, that this case won't happen very often (if at all). Just because our characters will use adequate gear and our limits will be higher than the actual dicepool... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

-CJ

[sk8bcn]

Pool Caps would have been the better option, as the intended target was, again, to reduce the number of dice rolled as far as i can gather . .

Easier, not better as far as I'm concerned.

[Stahlseele]

Seeing how i don't see how limits on Hits and not on Pool Size is supposed to make these pools smaller, i'd say pool size capping would have been the better option . .

[Draco18s]

limits on Hits are supposed to make these pools smaller

Who said that this was the goal?

By capping hits, it becomes a rapidly diminishing returns on what extra dice do for you (against a set threshold, the probability of success goes up, but the amount of success doesn't change). Where as caps on dice pool size cap the probability of success at a hard percentage.

Diminishing returns encourages diversification, but it doesn't enforce it.

[Kyrel]

Who said that this was the goal?

By capping hits, it becomes a rapidly diminishing returns on what extra dice do for you (against a set threshold, the probability of success goes up, but the amount of success doesn't change). Where as caps on dice pool size cap the probability of success at a hard percentage.

Diminishing returns encourages diversification, but it doesn't enforce it.

True Draco, but why make Limits in the first place? The argument was made that when players inflate their DP's to silly levels, you get to a point where you statistically should get 5-6+ hits per roll of the DP. Some people view this as a problem. Essentially there are three ways to address this issue, if you want to.

A) Limit the maximum size of the Dice Pool.
B) Make it so expensive to get that kind of a Dice Pool, so as to make it either next to impossible, or alternatively just so expensive that it simply isn't worth it.
C) Create a Limit on how many Hits you can get, making it pointless to inflate your Dice Pool beyond a given size, because even if you can regularly rely on rolling 5 or 6 hits, you can only use 3 of those hits, making the last 6-9 dice in the DP more or less pointless and a waste of Karma/Creds.

Personally I'd have much preferred that they had simply put a limit on the size of the DP. I.e. no more than +X additional positive modifiers beyond your Attribute + Skill. Be it a percentage or a fixed number. Either way you eliminate the problem of the inflated DP that statistically almost guarantee success.

Option B had IMO been both annoying and borderlining bad design.

As it sounds, the designers have gone with option C. I imagine that the thought behind this choice is that this both makes for a larger change to the game, adding a bigger justification for getting the new edition, and also it still allows people to inflate their DP's, if that is what tickles their fancy. From my point of view this choice is not an improvement on the game, and it is a roundabout way of trying to deal with the issue of inflated DPs.


/Kyrel

[cryptoknight]

Which is why I even added that combat casting is already plenty viable in SR4. The main focus there would be not messing it up.


Unrelated: I'm pretty sure you can't first aid away physical drain damage.

Sorry I misread you as saying that in 4 that mages use guns because combat casting isn't effective.

My fault.

In either case, combat casting can use a tone down/nerf. Nothing major, but either lets mundanes/adepts learn counter spelling (the magic version of dodge), or prevent mages from learning dodge/gymnastics (silly I know).

Combat needs to be (shoot/cast/throw/stab/punch) (roll dice) ... then try to dodge it (roll dice), then try to soak it (roll dice). For all forms of combat, if I can try to dodge a grenade, I should be able to dodge a Mana/Stun ball.

Lots of anger and hatred from me as a Missions GM vs Direct Spells. Indirect I like... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Who said that this was the goal?

By capping hits, it becomes a rapidly diminishing returns on what extra dice do for you (against a set threshold, the probability of success goes up, but the amount of success doesn't change). Where as caps on dice pool size cap the probability of success at a hard percentage.

Diminishing returns encourages diversification, but it doesn't enforce it.

if it wasn't a goal, then that's a completely different problem . .
reducing the ammount of dice rolled was a stated design goal for SR4, and you can see where that went.

[Epicedion]

True Draco, but why make Limits in the first place? The argument was made that when players inflate their DP's to silly levels, you get to a point where you statistically should get 5-6+ hits per roll of the DP. Some people view this as a problem. Essentially there are three ways to address this issue, if you want to.

A) Limit the maximum size of the Dice Pool.
B) Make it so expensive to get that kind of a Dice Pool, so as to make it either next to impossible, or alternatively just so expensive that it simply isn't worth it.
C) Create a Limit on how many Hits you can get, making it pointless to inflate your Dice Pool beyond a given size, because even if you can regularly rely on rolling 5 or 6 hits, you can only use 3 of those hits, making the last 6-9 dice in the DP more or less pointless and a waste of Karma/Creds.

There's at least a fourth option here: get rid of most, if not all, dice pool modifiers. I suggested earlier that a half-Attribute plus Skill dice pool would be pretty manageable, with modifiers affecting the threshold. That would make the extreme end of the dice pool around 20

[Cain]

Who said that this was the goal?

By capping hits, it becomes a rapidly diminishing returns on what extra dice do for you (against a set threshold, the probability of success goes up, but the amount of success doesn't change). Where as caps on dice pool size cap the probability of success at a hard percentage.

Diminishing returns encourages diversification, but it doesn't enforce it.

In theory, that's what we had with SR4.5, and look where that got us. Because the costs for raising attributes and skills scaled, it was theoretically a matter of diminishing returns. As a game balance mechanic, diminishing returns seldom works, as min/maxers can always find way to make it worth while.

There's at least a fourth option here: get rid of most, if not all, dice pool modifiers. I suggested earlier that a half-Attribute plus Skill dice pool would be pretty manageable, with modifiers affecting the threshold. That would make the extreme end of the dice pool around 20

That's basically his Option B; make it difficult to reach the higher sized dice pools. And again, that didn't work: limiting access to large dice pools just rewarding min/maxing more. Hard caps are the best way to prevent this.

[Epicedion]

That's basically his Option B; make it difficult to reach the higher sized dice pools. And again, that didn't work: limiting access to large dice pools just rewarding min/maxing more. Hard caps are the best way to prevent this.

There is a hard cap, it's just not artificially lower than what you're allowed to purchase.

At some reasonable Karma cost (say 2 x new skill level) it takes an extra 114 Karma to increase a single skill from 6 to 12. Then there's increasing the attribute to the maximum and cybering yourself up to the augmented maximum (remember I'm going with attribute contributing half to skill), and you're at your 'hard cap' of 16 dice for a human. And it's helluva expensive to get to. Enforcing a basic character generation limit of 6 skill, even with max attribute and full cyber the highest (human) dice pool is 10.

Essentially at maximum power, the human would be at odds to get 5 hits. Considering that in this system the threshold would move (a long range shot might have a basic threshold of 4 or 5, modified up and down by target behavior, cover, gear), even the top dog street samurai might only be expected to get a couple net hits on average. The thresholds have to move around more, because dice pool modifiers are generally meaningless difficulty changes if the threshold for success if still a 1.

That is, have 16 dice to roll and getting 8 chopped off for modifiers still only takes you from a 99% to a 96% chance of success. Modifying you down to 2 dice still gives you more than a 50% shot.

[Draco18s]

B) Make it so expensive to get that kind of a Dice Pool, so as to make it either next to impossible, or alternatively just so expensive that it simply isn't worth it.
C) Create a Limit on how many Hits you can get, making it pointless to inflate your Dice Pool beyond a given size, because even if you can regularly rely on rolling 5 or 6 hits, you can only use 3 of those hits, making the last 6-9 dice in the DP more or less pointless and a waste of Karma/Creds.

They did a combination of these two. They removed a lot of +pool mods, added limits, converted some +pool into +limits, and left it so that improvement was still possible: if you have no where else to go, you can STILL get an additional +1 pool, but its value is going to be pretty limited, as you're already above the average dice-to-hit-limits point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is a hard cap, it's just not artificially lower than what you're allowed to purchase.

At some reasonable Karma cost (say 2 x new skill level) it takes an extra 114 Karma to increase a single skill from 6 to 12. Then there's increasing the attribute to the maximum and cybering yourself up to the augmented maximum (remember I'm going with attribute contributing half to skill), and you're at your 'hard cap' of 16 dice for a human. And it's helluva expensive to get to. Enforcing a basic character generation limit of 6 skill, even with max attribute and full cyber the highest (human) dice pool is 10.

Essentially at maximum power, the human would be at odds to get 5 hits. Considering that in this system the threshold would move (a long range shot might have a basic threshold of 4 or 5, modified up and down by target behavior, cover, gear), even the top dog street samurai might only be expected to get a couple net hits on average. The thresholds have to move around more, because dice pool modifiers are generally meaningless difficulty changes if the threshold for success if still a 1.

That is, have 16 dice to roll and getting 8 chopped off for modifiers still only takes you from a 99% to a 96% chance of success. Modifying you down to 2 dice still gives you more than a 50% shot.

Some might argue that a person at the peak of his capabilities should never even fail that 1%-4% of the time for a taks, even one that is considered difficult. And in any task check that is opposed, that fail rate will go up, becuase the threshold is the opponents hits for success. There really is no proper answer to that dillema. I prefer DP Caps, because they apply across the board, and are easy to enforce. Limits and constantly moving thresholds just gum up the works, in my opinion.

[Epicedion]

Some might argue that a person at the peak of his capabilities should never even fail that 1%-4% of the time for a taks, even one that is considered difficult. And in any task check that is opposed, that fail rate will go up, becuase the threshold is the opponents hits for success. There really is no proper answer to that dillema. I prefer DP Caps, because they apply across the board, and are easy to enforce. Limits and constantly moving thresholds just gum up the works, in my opinion.

Essentially for opposed checks, it's possible that someone is handicapped and has to throw away a number of successes. For example, shooting someone in cover in darkness at long range is much harder than shooting someone standing still in the middle of a brightly lit room at short range. So the more difficult shot is handicapped (higher threshold), so you don't have to go mucking about with adding or subtracting dice from the guy who needs to dodge. I imagine I'd give dodging a burst a threshold as well.

For a truly equal opposed check, no one would throw away any hits, and you'd just compare directly.

[Larsine]

Ahh, right. I didn't dig into SR1. Human Mages started with 400,000¥ and 50 Force points. Metahuman sMages tarted with 20,000¥ and 20 Force points. I forgot how boned metas got in the old system.

I don't know when it was changed but in my 2nd printing mages still gets 400,000¥, but in my 5th printing they have changed it so that "Additlonaly, characters using magic receive only 150,000¥ not 400,000¥ for Tech Priority 3."

That's why some players claim you could at most get 150,000¥ as a human mage.

EDIT: Just checked my third corrected printing (the first softcover SR1), and that where 15,000 for magical active characters show up first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For a truly equal opposed check, no one would throw away any hits, and you'd just compare directly.

Yes...

[Bull]

I don't know when it was changed but in my 2nd printing mages still gets 400,000¥, but in my 5th printing they have changed it so that "Additlonaly, characters using magic receive only 150,000¥ not 400,000¥ for Tech Priority 3."

That's why some players claim you could at most get 150,000¥ as a human mage.

EDIT: Just checked my third corrected printing (the first softcover SR1), and that where 15,000 for magical active characters show up first.

Ahh, ok. I have a shiny 1st print hardcover.