SR5 Preview #3, In which is discussed character generation Options

[sk8bcn]

We're not blaming you, Critias. I appreciate what you're doing.

But the failure here is that the marketing folk aren't giving us enough information to decide if we want to buy the book... and the incomplete information they're showing us isn't generating a lot of positive feedback. Unless we see something with some serious Wow factor, the marketing campaign might just backfire, as people who would otherwise have bought the book get turned off by the internet rumors.

But one fact to consider is that dumpshock fans<>most customers.

I remember all the SR3 vs SR4 debates. In the end, SR4 was a success.

I don't think that was is written here is representative for the SR community.

[Cain]

But one fact to consider is that dumpshock fans<>most customers.

I remember all the SR3 vs SR4 debates. In the end, SR4 was a success.

I don't think that was is written here is representative for the SR community.

No, but we're the most hardcore. Many of us who didn't like SR4 bought it anyway, and most Dumpshockers own every book. Then SR4.5 came out, and many of us bought the new books. And to be honest, much of what changed in SR4.5 were things that fans on Dumpshock complained long and hard about.

Now, if you need a comparison: D&D 4e was a financial success. According to what I've heard, it was pulling in $40 million or so in revenue. However, they alienated a lot of older players, and they're trying to woo them back with Next. Even though they made a lot of money, they want even more. CGL and Shadowrun should aim to follow this model-- they should try and appeal to more fans, instead of alienating old ones.

[sk8bcn]

No, but we're the most hardcore. Many of us who didn't like SR4 bought it anyway, and most Dumpshockers own every book. Then SR4.5 came out, and many of us bought the new books. And to be honest, much of what changed in SR4.5 were things that fans on Dumpshock complained long and hard about.

Now, if you need a comparison: D&D 4e was a financial success. According to what I've heard, it was pulling in $40 million or so in revenue. However, they alienated a lot of older players, and they're trying to woo them back with Next. Even though they made a lot of money, they want even more. CGL and Shadowrun should aim to follow this model-- they should try and appeal to more fans, instead of alienating old ones.

I have over 200 SR books myself and I plane on completing the full SR 4 collection soon too. So I belong to that hardcore fanbase. But I also know that I don't represent the lambda SR player.


About DD4 and DD Next, I imagine that DD4 generated money through it's miniature gamestyle but such a model couldn't carry on generating money over a new edition (DD4 players already have minis).

[StealthSigma]

This is why the best NPC weapons are the ones it would be impractical for the Runners to make off with.

A big bad shooting at you with a high-tech prototype shotgun sporting a unique enchantment? Yeah, that's getting looted.

Same big bad instead shooting at you with a heavy weapon built into a military gunship? Unless the runners feel pretty darn confident in their ability to a) hack/take control of the gunship, b) have the skills to fly it, c) escape with it, d) clean it of tags and trackers, e) get it to a secure place, f) successfully keep it hidden, g) refuel it, h) rearm it, i) repair it, j) reuse or k) retail it, and l) live to tell the tale? They're gonna willingly leave it behind.

~Umi

Anything you can't do, Kane can do better.

[Cain]

I have over 200 SR books myself and I plane on completing the full SR 4 collection soon too. So I belong to that hardcore fanbase. But I also know that I don't represent the lambda SR player.


About DD4 and DD Next, I imagine that DD4 generated money through it's miniature gamestyle but such a model couldn't carry on generating money over a new edition (DD4 players already have minis).

No one might represent the "average" gamer, but deliberately alienating the hardcore fan base is a poor design strategy.

About D&D4e, it wasn't the miniatures but the DDI subscriptions that raked in the cash.

[binarywraith]

No one might represent the "average" gamer, but deliberately alienating the hardcore fan base is a poor design strategy.

Especially when, to judge from the Shadowrun Returns kickstarter, the hardcore fanbase has money and is not afraid to hurl it delightedly at products that cater to them.

[Stahlseele]

Remember:
The Hardcore Fans are in their 30's and as nerds usually have paying Jobs as well.

[Epicedion]

No one might represent the "average" gamer, but deliberately alienating the hardcore fan base is a poor design strategy.

About D&D4e, it wasn't the miniatures but the DDI subscriptions that raked in the cash.

Presumably all the assorted paraphenalia, like the decks of power cards, contributed as well. SR5's primary purpose is to sell about 2-3 books to the curious player, and maybe half a dozen on top of that to the hardcore gamer over the next few years. They could take a DDI bent, but there's always the risk of the player-base resenting a subscription model.

[Not of this Worl...]

No one might represent the "average" gamer, but deliberately alienating the hardcore fan base is a poor design strategy.

The hardcore was already alienated once with 4th edition. I remember you were there with me making the arguments, but the vast majority of those other names are long gone. Still 4th edition found its own market and survived. I see 5th edition really as a halfway mark (3.5) trying to appeal to a lot of the old Shadowrun players who might back Shadowrun Returns but wouldn't touch 4th edition RPG or Shadowrun Online at all. So 5th edition isn't trying to alienate that fanbase, it is trying to recover it. Because as Shadowrun Returns shows you can appeal to both groups and it is lucrative to do so.

[TheOneRonin]

On the whole melee/ranged thing: It is a proven fact that a knife beats a pistol inside 21 feet. Additionally, while it only takes 1 well placed bullet to kill a person, it also only takes one well placed stab to kill a person. In fact, because of the tendency of non-hollow point rounds to produce "through and through" wounds versus the tendency of blades (depending in part on sharpness and serration) to tear, knives can actually produce more serious and difficult to treat wounds.

I apologize for coming late to the party, but I've seen this bit of data making the rounds, and it needs some clarification.

The scenario RHat is referring to is known as the 21' foot rule in Law Enforcement circles. The premise is actually that an armed attacker (generally will a knife or other street-common melee weapon) who is within 21' of a police officer can generally close the gap and stab/strike said offer before he can draw and fire his weapon. This assumption is based on several caveats:

A.) The officer does not yet have his weapon drawn. If he does, the attacker will be a pin-cushion before he gets close enough to strike.
B.) The remains stationary. Moving is actually one of the defenses against this sort of scenario...specifically moving in a clockwise or counterclockwise arc away from the attacker.
C.) The attacker has to cross flat, unobstructed terrain, and only has to move in a straight line to reach the officer.

The final bit to this is that given the above, yes, the melee assailant will likely be able to stab said officer, but does NOT automatically win the fight. In most cases Mr. Ninja, after inserting said blade in the torso of said officer, will promptly be shot to pieces at VERY close range, seeing as how it's hard to miss, even with a knife sticking in your belly.

[Bigity]

It also should be said that knife wounds almost always take a long time to kill someone.

[CanRay]

It also should be said that knife wounds almost always take a long time to kill someone.

Unless shock gets them first. (Luckily, I know how to deal with shock, as it almost got me in the accident!).

[TheOneRonin]

It also should be said that knife wounds almost always take a long time to kill someone.

Outside of CNS damage, bullet wounds tend to take a while to kill people too. In fact, the main thing that kills you is the blood loss.

Even after complete destruction of the heart, the body contains enough blood to keep a person conscious for about 10 seconds. Think about it...that's 3 full combat turns in Shadowrun.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It also should be said that knife wounds almost always take a long time to kill someone.

Most wounds take a long time to kill unlss they hit a vital location.

[tasti man LH]

Nevermind that the knife in question could kill you instantly depending on where you stab and how much penetration the blade gets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to get about 3 inches of penetration in the chest area to get a guaranteed fatal wound?

[Bigity]

Assuming you aren't stabbing down and glancing off a rib or something I guess.

Bottom line, any kind of wound sucks, but in almost all situations, a firearm is better. It's why they replaced swords and lances after all.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Nevermind that the knife in question could kill you instantly depending on where you stab and how much penetration the blade gets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to get about 3 inches of penetration in the chest area to get a guaranteed fatal wound?

If you go for the chest that is probably right, but with a rib cage its not the best target. We have a ton of arteries on the surface, knives frequently do better as slashing weapons.

[CanRay]

The quickest way to a man's heart is in and under the Celiac plexus and then moving with an upward motion.

[Cain]

The hardcore was already alienated once with 4th edition. I remember you were there with me making the arguments, but the vast majority of those other names are long gone. Still 4th edition found its own market and survived. I see 5th edition really as a halfway mark (3.5) trying to appeal to a lot of the old Shadowrun players who might back Shadowrun Returns but wouldn't touch 4th edition RPG or Shadowrun Online at all. So 5th edition isn't trying to alienate that fanbase, it is trying to recover it. Because as Shadowrun Returns shows you can appeal to both groups and it is lucrative to do so.

I see them trying to do so (as opposed to thumbing their noses in our faces, a la SR4), but I also don't see them succeeding. They haven't managed to wow us with new and fun rules and mechanics, and even with some favorite elements back (the Priority table) they haven't shown that there's any good implementation (no mundane Human can have an Edge of less than 5, for example).

[sk8bcn]

No one might represent the "average" gamer, but deliberately alienating the hardcore fan base is a poor design strategy.

Hey, wait. That's your perception of the situation.

We can say we belong both to the fanbase.

You already know that you hate the dice limit system. And you voice it.
I am positively inclined toward this system. But I can't voice it as loud as I still wait what the result would be.


It has yet to be proven that their idea will alienate the fan-base. I'm far from beeing convinced of that.

[Larsine]

(no mundane Human can have an Edge of less than 5, for example).

That would be "No mundane Human Player Character needs to have an edge of less than 5".

1) You don't have to choose priority D fro mundane humans, although it would be stupid not to do so.
2) Non-player characters are not created by the Character Generation rules.

[Temperance]

I tentatively like what I see about limits. I don't see it as fodder for "Shadowrun is ruined forever!" Its a rule easily ignored from what we see with the previews, and for me it adds a certain flavor to the verisimilitude. (As much as can be said in a system with MAGIC!) When it comes to weapon/tool limits, I do see the problem of a the best marksman in the world using a crap gun and being limited by the gun more than he should. On the other hand, it's also a common enough trope that a master of his craft can still do well even with crap and shine with the right tools. (The Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon stick fight comes to mind.) As long as it's balanced well and there are means around it when it becomes necessary, I don't see it as much of an issue.

Character limits I am a bit more concerned about. The basics of the formula don't sit right with me, considering everything it applies to. But again, I guess we'll see. And I must have missed it, but I didn't see how personal limits interact with the tool using limits. IE: Do you take worst of your personal physical limits or the gun's limit with shooting someone? Or do you take the better?

In regards to the "offending the hardcore customer", I consider myself casual hardcore. I tend not to pick apart my mechanics unless glaring items crop up (adepts and bioware come to mind), but I tend to buy lots of SR books. I started with SR2, picked up SR3 & SR4 when they came out, and I'll pick up SR5 when it releases. More depending on how much I like it. The 3.x to 4e D&D didn't bother me much, since I liked the jump. Though I can see why others didn't. The advertising was borderline offensive as it mocked people who liked the older style of play. Next is failing just as bad, because despite the promised inclusion, the line dev basically said, "Everyone except the 4e crowd."

Yes, in both cases, winning over the old crowd is good. Keeping the current fans is also good. Attracting new fans is great. (New blood means new creative viewpoints that you may not have had before.) Striking a good balance between change, keeping/attracting old fans, and gaining new ones is the best option. Unlike Next, SR5 seems to be attempting to cleave to that balance. I think it's too soon to be saying, "ruined forever" and "crap mechanics" when we don't even have a full picture. It's easy to see part of a picture an get a false impression of the overall scene. Heck, I've see innocent pictures that when cropped, look X rated. See the full picture and it becomes G rated.

My current stance on all of it: Wait and see how it shakes out in play and how the line develops. Worst case scenario, I wasted $35 due to Amazon's pre-order guarantee and a couple hours with friends. Hanging out with my friends trying something new? Oh, the horror. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

I am not sure which forum thread I picked this up from, but I think it applies: "We'll see. Also the boy and the zen master." (No, I haven't seen the movie it's taken from.)

That all said, I do appreciate folks' dissection of the rules. It gives me additional stuff to keep an eye on when I do try it in play. So for that, I thank you.

-Temperance

[StealthSigma]

I tentatively like what I see about limits. I don't see it as fodder for "Shadowrun is ruined forever!" Its a rule easily ignored from what we see with the previews, and for me it adds a certain flavor to the verisimilitude.

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion. Gear has been balanced and designed with the limits system in place. Ignoring limits means there will be gear that is useless and more importantly since weapons have an accuracy stat which damage is probably balanced around, throws the weapons wildly out of whack. There is no ignoring limits without need to significantly redo gear.

[Mäx]

That would be "No mundane Human Player Character needs to have an edge of less than 5".

1) You don't have to choose priority D fro mundane humans, although it would be stupid not to do so.

If you don't then you will have even higher edge, how is that in anyway relevant.

[Patrick Goodman]

You know, Max, you're not REQUIRED to spend those Special Attribute points.

I'm the guy who made the formal proposal to go back to priorities. If you like them...you're welcome. If you hate them, I'm sorry; you can castigate me all you want. (To be fair, there was general support for the idea, and it had to get past a lot of people, but I'm the poor sap who got that ball officially rolling.)

I didn't expect quite the priority table we got, but I was hella impressed when it hit us for initial review. There's a lot of math that went into making it as robust as it is; in theory, at least, all the columns at any given level are worth approximately the same karma (all the A priorities are worth about X, all the B priorities are worth around Y, etc). I think it's pretty cool, and it offers a lot of possibilities that priorities in SR1-SR3 didn't give you.