Barrier vs elemtal wall Options

[Raiden]

ok as a mage I like to have a O crap spell for when drek hits the fan and dakka... A LOT of dakka would be headed your way. now. unless I have misread it you can MOVE the elemental wall with you correct? can you do this with barrier? it doesn't seem like it. if neither can be moved my question it. is the elemental wall, (water, earth, things that block bullets and the like) better than the barrier? can you protect teammates with this spell if they are close enough?

[Stahlseele]

you can, as far as i remember, move the barrier as well.
you can not protect anybody with the elemental wall, aside from close combat attacks, as the elemental wall will not stop anything moving through it.
it will just damage stuff. which a barrier will not do. but a barrier will stop stuff from moving through the barrier in the first place, given high enough force.

[Raiden]

ok. elemental walls CAN stop bullets though. which is what I am mostly concerned about. if they are close enough to walk through then its probably over at that point. although certain elemental walls will not even do that. IE fire, smoke, sound, etc. others can it seems as well as giving visual modifiers for those inside. its still a hard decision though as other spell slots have been taken up lol.

[Stahlseele]

since when can elemental walls stop bullets? O.o
i don't remember reading that anywhere.
was that changed somewhere?

[Raiden]

since when can elemental walls stop bullets? O.o
i don't remember reading that anywhere.
was that changed somewhere?

here. seems to imply they can. due to the statement about certian ones NOT blocking dakka. and then giving the others armor and structure rating.

[Element] Wall (Environmental, Area)
Type: P • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 5
This spell creates a wall composed of the specified element;
each element requires a different spell (Fire Wall, Ice
Wall, Smoke Wall, etc). This wall has a height and length up to
the spell’s Force in meters, or it can be crafted as a dome with a
radius and height equal to half the Force in meters. The width
of the wall can be up to one meter. The caster may adjust this
size as he would adjust any area effect radius (see p. 173, SR4).
Anyone coming into contact with the wall suffers special
damage as appropriate to the element (see p. 155, SR4,
and pp. 164–165 of this book) with a DV equal to the spell’s
Force. Note that some elemental walls (fire, smoke, etc.) are
not solid and will not block attacks, though they may inflict
Visibility modifiers as determined by the gamemaster. Solid
walls (earth, ice, etc.) have an Armor and Structure rating
equal to the caster’s Spellcasting hits.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, right, i forgot about solid elemental effects, my bad . .

[Raiden]

its no problem. I want to meet the man that can memorize the SR rules exactly lol. then call him a lair

[Shinobi Killfist]

The first thing to remember is that they all suck at stopping anything unless you are an absurdly tallented mage or get a really lucky roll. Read the barrier structure rating rules, with on average 1 hit per 3 dice a mage with 18 dice in spellcasting wont make a barrier strong enough to stop a heavy pistol with a single net hit. Yeah sure 6 bonus armor, that is nice. Now something like metal barrier wll also block line of sight giving shooters a pretty big dice penalty which can be worth it, but the drain is killer.

[Raiden]

at the point I am resorting to the wall I will probably be using a point of edge to get sploding 6s or reroll all the misses. besides any wall that stops or CAN stop things gives them the blind firing modifier

[TeOdio]

Bullets only have a DV of 2 against Barriers. 2 resistance hits by the barriers armor will stop most rounds dead.

[SpellBinder]

SR4a, page 166, Shooting Trough Barriers:

"If a character wants to shoot through a barrier to hit a target behind it, add the barrier’s Armor rating to whatever armor the target already possesses. The attacker also suffers a –6 Blind Fire dice pool modifier because he cannot see the intended target, unless the barrier is transparent.

If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails."

My understanding in this is that you do not actually roll for damage resistance of the barrier in this case. If the shooting attack (regardless of the gun's DV) nets enough hits +2 (taking into account the modified bullet's DV against barriers) against the barrier's Armor - AP, the gunshot gets through no matter what and whoever is behind the barrier to get hit gains a bonus to resisting the damage equal to the barrier's modified Armor value against the gun's true DV.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Bullets only have a DV of 2 against Barriers. 2 resistance hits by the barriers armor will stop most rounds dead.

It is 2DV per bullet, a short burst is 6 DV a long burst 12 DV, full auto 20DV. It is a really dumb rule, but so be it. Though you need burst fire for this. Though getting enough net hits to drop a 6 armor barrier isn't that hard its not exactly dodging you. And as pointed out shooting through just adds armor which is what I was thinking of.

[Raiden]

if it doesnt stop the bullet at least you get more armor and making shoot under the blind fire rules are nice.

[Falconer]

It's not based on the force of the spell but the number of hits for the quality of the barrier.

The elemental effect is no different than the normal 'physical barrier' spell. It's just physical barrier plus with an added elemental effect.

So raising it does not automatically impose a blind fire penalty. Again note the end of the barrier rules... for intentionally firing through barriers. 'unless the barrier is transparent'. A wall of ice... like glass... a wall of smoke... not so much, wall of flame you can see through fire (especially with flare guard). A non-elemental physical barrier specifically is translucent only granting a small vision penalty.

The last part for firing through barriers. The bullets are not only 2 DV each. That's for intentionally attacking the barrier to hole it in the "Destroying Barriers" section of the rules. Immediately after the ...unless the barrier is transparent in the 'Shooting Through Barriers' section which precedes it. "If the weapons modified Damage Value does not exceed the barriers Armor rating (modified by the weapons AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier and the attack automatically fails".

That means an ares predator with 2 net hits... as a modified damage value of 5base + 2net ==7 damage. Again an armor 8 or more barrier the attack fails. 8 - AP1 == 7 which ties... but does not beat the armor. So you need to cast the spell with 8 successes to stop this pistol attack from piercing it... which automatically collapses the barrier spell.

Yes physical barrier spells suck for stopping bullets... though they're great for interfering with melee and a few other utility functions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

since when can elemental walls stop bullets? O.o
i don't remember reading that anywhere.
was that changed somewhere?

Ice is an Element that you can choose. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
EDIT: Already mentioned... Oh Well. *sigh*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not based on the force of the spell but the number of hits for the quality of the barrier.

The elemental effect is no different than the normal 'physical barrier' spell. It's just physical barrier plus with an added elemental effect.

So raising it does not automatically impose a blind fire penalty. Again note the end of the barrier rules... for intentionally firing through barriers. 'unless the barrier is transparent'. A wall of ice... like glass... a wall of smoke... not so much, wall of flame you can see through fire (especially with flare guard). A non-elemental physical barrier specifically is translucent only granting a small vision penalty.

The last part for firing through barriers. The bullets are not only 2 DV each. That's for intentionally attacking the barrier to hole it in the "Destroying Barriers" section of the rules. Immediately after the ...unless the barrier is transparent in the 'Shooting Through Barriers' section which precedes it. "If the weapons modified Damage Value does not exceed the barriers Armor rating (modified by the weapons AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier and the attack automatically fails".

That means an ares predator with 2 net hits... as a modified damage value of 5base + 2net ==7 damage. Again an armor 8 or more barrier the attack fails. 8 - AP1 == 7 which ties... but does not beat the armor. So you need to cast the spell with 8 successes to stop this pistol attack from piercing it... which automatically collapses the barrier spell.

Yes physical barrier spells suck for stopping bullets... though they're great for interfering with melee and a few other utility functions.

Also do not forget that in such a calculation, Burst Fire/FA Fire does not add to the Calculation for shooting through... You compare prior to the Burst/FA modifier, just like you would with any other Barrier/Armor.

[Makki]

I'd say Elemental Wall beats barrier due to transmissivity. Barrier you can see through and the visibility modifier is very small. Wall is opaque and makes the enemy shoot with Int instead of Agi and -6!