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> Cyclops and ghouls..
Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 25 2004, 10:07 PM
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Ok Being a Cylcops gives you +2Tn's to range attacks due lack of depth perception.

Ghouls being dual natured and blind (+6 Tn's for solely physical based sight) have Astral Peception. Which being a "Psychic" Sense doesn't require eyes....


Thus a Ghoul Cyclops shouldn't get the +2Tn's for range combat Vs a living target cos they can use Astral Perception to "See" the target.

Right or Wrong?



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BitBasher
post Apr 25 2004, 10:16 PM
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At least in my opinion, wrong. The Ghoul Cyclops still sees in monoscopic, regardless. I dont believe astral sight or normal sight would change that.

By canon though theres IIRC no guarantee there can be a ghoul cyclops, as the HMHVV may kill it as it does some metatypes.
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 25 2004, 10:34 PM
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Right, I'd say. Astral is /purely psychic/. You can have eighteen eyes, one eye, no eyes, or two eyes, and astral would be the same.
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mfb
post Apr 25 2004, 10:56 PM
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yeah. it's kinda crazy to say that astral percep can overcome having no eyes, but not overcome having one eye. astral perception isn't based on eyes at all, ergo the cyclops' +2 TN doesn't apply.
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Dissonance
post Apr 25 2004, 10:56 PM
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Performing physical actions while using astral perception imposes a +2 TN. Not to mention background count also adds as a vision penalty.

At least that's what our GM says.
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Backgammon
post Apr 25 2004, 11:00 PM
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Exactly. They don't get the +2 for having only one eye, but they get the +2 due to astral perception, plus normal astral modifiers.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 25 2004, 11:05 PM
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The +2 is for "purely mundane tasks" and does not apply to creatures that have been dual natured for any significant amount of time. Shooting a gun would be a purely mundane task, but once adjusted to astral sight, the blind dual natured cyclops would no longer face that penalty.
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 25 2004, 11:06 PM
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You'd think that...unless you were aware of the fact that dual-natured beings don't suffer the +2 astral-sight mod. Heh.

Otherwise, materialized spirits, dragons, and a bunch of critters would be a /lot/ easier to kill ;).
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Ancient History
post Apr 25 2004, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE
By canon though theres IIRC no guarantee there can be a ghoul cyclops, as the HMHVV may kill it as it does some metatypes.


The various Krieger strains of HMHVV appear to be universal among all metatypes. I think it safe to say that a Cyclopian Ghoul could exist.

QUOTE
yeah. it's kinda crazy to say that astral percep can overcome having no eyes, but not overcome having one eye. astral perception isn't based on eyes at all, ergo the cyclops' +2 TN doesn't apply.


Astral perception (in this case, being Dual-natured) is independant of the existence and functionality of eyes, except as a psychic crutch. That is, if you close your eyes on the physical plane, you can still see on the astral. If you're blind ont he physical plane, then you can still see on the astral. If you lose your eyes on the physical plane, you might not be able to see on the astral (because you attribute your "astral sight" with your eyes; it's a totally psychological block that can be overcome. Theoretically, someone blind on the astral could still hear, or pick up other astral impressions that are not interpreted sight-wise.)

QUOTE
You'd think that...unless you were aware of the fact that dual-natured beings don't suffer the +2 astral-sight mod. Heh.

Otherwise, materialized spirits, dragons, and a bunch of critters would be a /lot/ easier to kill


In this specific instance, referring to the 3rd edition SRCompanion, notice that each ghoul suffers the Blind flaw. Flip to the Blind flaw. Notice that it is reduced for magicians "who can use astral perception as a form of sight." Since this bypasses the fact that ghoul eyes are worth shit, I personally would rule that the Cyclopian Ghoul would only have the +2 modifier for interacting with something only on the physical plane (unless they get cybereyes).

Still, reading has got to be a bitch, since you can't do that on the astral.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 25 2004, 11:33 PM
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But all living things have auras no? thus when attacking (in any physical way) a living thing that modifier wouldn't apply? (+2Tn's for using astral)
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 25 2004, 11:40 PM
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You're confused. This is how it works.

When viewing the astral, everything is kind of...muddied, and you get somewhat disoriented. Therefore, when trying to do a "physical" act while perceiving astrally, you get +2 TN. Therefore, shooting, fighting, searching, et cetera, all +2, but casting a spell or something like that has no mod. This is how it is for mages or physads with Astral Perception...when AP is on, they're dual-natured.

HOWEVER! A PERMANENTLY dual-natured being (dragons, materialized spirits, barghests, GHOULS) does not receive this +2 mod.

Grok?
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Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 26 2004, 12:44 AM
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So my Ghoul hunting Ghoul Cyclops with autoshotgun is a go then? :P
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 26 2004, 12:52 AM
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The bit you're missing from what Ancient is saying, Kak, is that while dual-natured individuals don't suffer the usual +2 penalty for veiwing both worlds, that "lack of a penalty" comes from the assumption that they can see perfectly fine on both worlds.

But since cyclops suffer from depth-perception problems on the physical, they'll still suffer a +2 target number penalty on any action dependant on physical sight.
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TheScamp
post Apr 26 2004, 12:54 AM
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Ask your GM.
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 01:14 AM
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Lime--how can you have a physical-sight modifier if you can't see physically?
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 26 2004, 01:16 AM
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I'm not saying it's my opinion, it just looked like you weren't quite getting what he was getting at. :)
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Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 26 2004, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (TheScamp)
Ask your GM.

I meant rules wise.

Would i Suffer the afforementioned penelties to hit while shooting at a living target, using soley Astral Perception?
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 02:27 AM
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No.

But if your character were a cyclops mage or adept with Astral Perception, and used that, you wouldn't have the one-eye mod, but you would have the astral mod.
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BitBasher
post Apr 26 2004, 02:31 AM
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technically by the rules it says you get a +2 to all ranged tests, and it does not specify the type of tests ot conditions, it is simply all ranged tests. Therefore if you are performing a ranged test by the letter of the rules, regardless of the type or details yes, you suffer the penalty.

A GM may make an exception to those rules as written provided he feels differently
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 02:55 AM
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That would contradict other rules, though. In terms of contradictions, always side with the logical rule...
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 26 2004, 02:57 AM
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What rule does that contradict? Dual-natured beings simply don't suffer a penalty -- a penalty derived from something completely unrelated -- for using astral perception. A cyclop's +2 TN penalty is completely different from blindness or astral perception.
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Kakkaraun
post Apr 26 2004, 03:00 AM
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The rules say that astral sight is wholly psychic and no physical-sight modifiers apply.

Dur.
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BitBasher
post Apr 26 2004, 03:05 AM
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Are you still planning on making a ranged combat test? Cause if so the word "All" us unambiguous from my previous quote.
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TheScamp
post Apr 26 2004, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE
The rules say that astral sight is wholly psychic and no physical-sight modifiers apply.


Ah, but Cyclops have the modifier because they "lack depth perception." Perhaps their brains are incapable of discerning the nuances of depth that a brain designed for and used to binocular vision would have. In which case, it wouldn't matter where the information was coming from.
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BitBasher
post Apr 26 2004, 03:08 AM
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QUOTE
The rules say that astral sight is wholly psychic and no physical-sight modifiers apply.
page number please? because that is patently false. Smoke and fog affect astral visibility, and they are phsical fight modifiers, so are opaque walls and so on. More appropriately Not all phsical sight modifiers apply.
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