SR5 Preview #4, Parts of the combat chapter Options

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Skill Groups at '5' out of Chargen. That is interesting. On the surface, that appears to significantly up the ante on Skills 'A' and Skills 'B'.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Black Swan]

A few interesting things:
The average troll is now slower than the average dwarf.

ahhhh . . . .a return to sensibilities.

[Shinobi Killfist]

What else are you going to base it on, charisma? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Strength. You kow those muscle things that propel you can be conisdered strength.

[Black Swan]

Not sure if I like the interrupt actions . . . .

[binarywraith]

Strength. You kow those muscle things that propel you can be conisdered strength.

I consider it an even split. Strength might be useful for sheer power measurement, but being able to actually run in a controlled manner so you aren't falling on your ass every three steps and can actually corner faster than a bus on ice is Agility's province.

[Black Swan]

I consider it an even split. Strength might be useful for sheer power measurement, but being able to actually run in a controlled manner so you aren't falling on your ass every three steps and can actually corner faster than a bus on ice is Agility's province.

Being a runner myself, I will tell you that strength has little to nothing to do with running. I am quite weak physically, and I can easily outrun my muscular taller friend. I can outrun him and out endure him, as I have focused on cardio.

[Seerow]

Strength. You kow those muscle things that propel you can be conisdered strength.

Or, y'know, just keep base movement static with the ability to modify run speed via athletic skill. Worked just fine.

[Black Swan]

Being a runner myself, I will tell you that strength has little to nothing to do with running. I am quite weak physically, and I can easily outrun my muscular taller friend. I can outrun him and out endure him, as I have focused on cardio.

Don't get me wrong, a very weak person couldn't run very fast either, but a point is very quickly surpassed when muscles are more of a bane then a boon.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Being a runner myself, I will tell you that strength has little to nothing to do with running. I am quite weak physically, and I can easily outrun my muscular taller friend. I can outrun him and out endure him, as I have focused on cardio.

Being a runner myself I can tell you strength has everything to do with running. You are fully propelled by strength. There is more to being strong than being a weight lifter. Runners, and well all track and field types of ridiculously strong legs. Strength should have covered all explosive movement based skills, agility should have covered all fine control and hand eye coordination type skills. There are only 8 stats, there is no need to overly narrowly define a couple of them and overly broadly define others, spread the love. It makes just as much sense and it actually helps balance things.

But yeah Seerow this s one they could have just kept a flat number by race. And I wish they had gone back to movement per pass instead of turn. I think it is lame and an unnecessary extra step to divide in up over passes.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Don't get me wrong, a very weak person couldn't run very fast either, but a point is very quickly surpassed when muscles are more of a bane then a boon.

While that is true, that is more a flaw of the 8 stat system where something like strength can and should cover a wide range of ideas.

[Black Swan]

Being a runner myself I can tell you strength has everything to do with running. You are fully propelled by strength. There is more to being strong than being a weight lifter. Runners, and well all track and field types of ridiculously strong legs.

No they don't. They have ridiculously toned leg muscles. They have strength in their legs, but most certainly not ridiculously strong legs. I can sprint faster than anyone in my running group, and they all can leg press more than I can. Once the muscles in your legs become too large they become an impediment to your running capabilities. And since the Strength attribute symbolizes raw muscle not toned muscle, the Strength attribute would not benefit the run.

EDIT: Core strength is important, but the Strength Attribute is based on raw unbridled Strength; not core strength.

[Black Swan]

I wish they had abandoned the old SR version of Delayed Actions, and incorporated the Delayed Action vs. Readied Action.

[Black Swan]

They probably should have had the "Armour Penetration" explanation appear before the notes on Stun damage due to weapon damage being less than AP-modified rating.

[DMiller]

In SR4 the Running skill is Strength based. In all the SR editions before SR4 base movement was not based on Strength, but the Running skill (or specialization) would augment movement rate. If they keep the Running skill Strength based in SR5, then the whole movement thing works. Agility will be your base movement and Strength will augment it.

As we all know Real World has absolutely nothing to do with Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

No they don't. They have ridiculously toned leg muscles. They have strength in their legs, but most certainly not ridiculously strong legs. I can sprint faster than anyone in my running group, and they all can leg press more than I can. Once the muscles in your legs become too large they become an impediment to your running capabilities. And since the Strength attribute symbolizes raw muscle not toned muscle, the Strength attribute would not benefit the run.

EDIT: Core strength is important, but the Strength Attribute is based on raw unbridled Strength; not core strength.

Um bunk the strength attributes is based on all aspects of strength. Narrowing it down to one type of strength is a horrible idea in a 8 stat system, its why you get super stats because bad design narrows certain attributes down to a ridiculous level while broadening others to similar degrees.

[Epicedion]

In SR4 the Running skill is Strength based. In all the SR editions before SR4 base movement was not based on Strength, but the Running skill (or specialization) would augment movement rate. If they keep the Running skill Strength based in SR5, then the whole movement thing works. Agility will be your base movement and Strength will augment it.

As we all know Real World has absolutely nothing to do with Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Shouldn't it really be a Body skill, since Body is generally your physical acumen and endurance? It's sort of a difficult thing having Strength, Body, Agility, and (part of) Reaction covering all your physical attributes, since some tasks can conceivably be a little bit of everything.

Giving Running to Strength is a little weird, though.

Anyway, what the hell is up with the "can fire a weapon in SA, SS, BF, or FA modes as a simple action but cannot take another attack action" wording? Followed by complex actions of "fire FA" as a complex action and "fire long burst or semi-auto burst" as a complex action. This seems a weird way of dividing things up.

I'm not keen on the return of taking Stun damage if modified armor outweighs the modified damage. It lends itself to the SR4 problems of "why not just gear for stun" and the phenomenon of armor-stripping so you can take physical damage and not pass out.

Interrupt actions are probably a good thing. It lets you throw yourself into defensive mode even if you lose the initiative roll, which is a nice common sense rule (you don't suddenly stop being on the defense just because 3 seconds have passed, but you shouldn't be rewarded with free defense for a sucky initiative roll by having it carry over to the next turn until your initiative). It also lets you "spend" initiative on temporary defensive actions, which is just a good cinematic effect for combat (the samurai is forced to parry each blow from the horde of chain-wielding gangers, hoping that one will slip up and give him the opportunity to strike). This is actually pretty neat.

Speaking of Initiative, getting rid of the SR4 Initiative system was probably the best possible thing. It looks like there'll be an overall increase in characters getting 2 IPs (R + I + 1d6 should lead to a fair number of 11+ results for most runners and threats), with 3 IPs being achievable by augmented folks without special Initiative-increasing gear. Presumably Wired Reflexes will go back to a +Reaction +Initiative-dice bit of gear. A cap of 5d6 here (so it appears) means that you could conceivably, with heavy augmentation, take part in up 5 Initiative Passes.

Something about damaging weapons with Matrix Actions. What?

[Glyph]

Interesting. Initiative boosts are still meaningful, but not as much so - initiative passes go per 10 points of your score, and augmentations still seem to give the usual +1 Reaction/+1d6 Initiative. Dice pools may be smaller, but more of those dice will hit; things that used to be normal defense subtract from your initiative score now. Bad for melee combat defense, good for ranged combat defense (where you didn't have such options before). The reference to gymnastics skill has me wondering - have they gotten rid of the dodge skill altogether? I guess that's one way of resolving the "why take dodge when you can take gymnastics" argument...

The gunslinger adept is functional, but the background has a bit too much hyperbole in it compared to the stats. The gymnastics skill might confirm the dodge skill not dodging the bullet for the new edition change. Adepts have powers that increase accuracy (I wonder if they still have powers that increase the skill, or whether this replaces those). Code of honor resembles the codes of conduct from Runner's Companion, but is a (negative, I assume) quality now. Commlinks are greatly simplified it seems; just one overall rating.

[Epicedion]

Guesses:

"Semi-Auto Burst" is basically the idea that a SA weapon can fire two (several?) shots as a complex action (instead of two shots as two separate simple actions). I'm guessing they're going to apply Burst mechanics to a Semi-Auto Burst such that it increases the DV at the cost of Recoil instead of being resolved as two completely separate shots. This would be a nice simplification (you can only shoot one person once with one gun in a single IP) while also adding utility for people who use two guns (lets you shoot a target twice for real, or two separate targets maybe).

"Long Burst fire as a complex action" is basically a burst double tap (combined effect of two simple action bursts like you'd do in SR3 or 4), again as a DV increase and only against a single target, instead of resolved as separate burst attacks.

"Full Auto as a simple action" is basically like a Long Burst, but the effective benefit of using a Full Auto weapon over a Burst weapon.

"Full Auto as a complex action" is basically a maxed out full auto attack (10 bullets).

I'm sort of with this, if I'm accurate on the details here. It'd certainly simplify combat rolls to a single attack/defense set of rolls per character turn (action phase), rather than forcing shot/burst 1 attack defense damage, shot/burst 2 attack defense damage, which does get rather tedious.

Also, there was very little point to using two weapons in previous editions, and it looks like they've been working on making that viable for ranged and melee combat.

Aside from that, I'd really hope that there's an effective mechanic for suppressing fire and/or area fire, as I've always felt that SR was lacking in that particular tactical regard.

[Shemhazai]

Edit: Fixed one-off counting mistake. Thanks Jareth Valor for pointing it out!

Ini 18 + 5D6 = 18 + 30 = 48 max = 5 action phases

The average roll for 5D6 is 17.5. So max human Initiative gives an average of 35.5. A lucky roll can give five actions, and an unlucky one can give three. Maybe if racial maxes change, exceptional attribute could make six actions theoretically possible.

As a side note, I didn't see anything in the physical or stun damage descriptions that described the character falling unconscious.

[Jareth Valar]

Ini 18 + 5D6 = 18 + 30 = 48 max = 4 action phases

The average roll for 5D6 is 17.5. So max human Initiative gives an average of 35.5. A lucky roll can give four actions, and unlucky one can give two. Maybe if racial maxes change, exceptional attribute could make five actions theoretically possible.

As a side note, I didn't see anything in the physical or stun damage descriptions that described the character falling unconscious.

Max of 5. 48,38,28,18,8

[Samoth]

No they don't. They have ridiculously toned leg muscles. They have strength in their legs, but most certainly not ridiculously strong legs. I can sprint faster than anyone in my running group, and they all can leg press more than I can. Once the muscles in your legs become too large they become an impediment to your running capabilities. And since the Strength attribute symbolizes raw muscle not toned muscle, the Strength attribute would not benefit the run.

EDIT: Core strength is important, but the Strength Attribute is based on raw unbridled Strength; not core strength.

This is straight up incorrect broscience.

On topic, can one of the devs please explain why you can throw two high explosive grenades in one combat action, but you can not punch one person twice?

[Shemhazai]

This is straight up incorrect broscience.

On topic, can one of the devs please explain why you can throw two high explosive grenades in one combat action, but you can not punch one person twice?

I think you can if you expend the Multiple Attacks free action.

Edit: I could be wrong. The rules talk about multiple targets, not the same target twice. I would allow it.

[Sengir]

I'm sort of with this, if I'm accurate on the details here. It'd certainly simplify combat rolls to a single attack/defense set of rolls per character turn (action phase), rather than forcing shot/burst 1 attack defense damage, shot/burst 2 attack defense damage, which does get rather tedious.

While that is a good point, it would have been better presented by leaving SA fire as it is and then adding an "SA burst" option to the complex actions. The new version first offers SA single shots and tells you that one shot prohibits further attacks, then two pages later comes the SA burst, which again references a rule 30 pages down the road in case you want to fire at two targets...

[Mäx]

Big kudos to who ever got "Fire Bow" added to simple actions list and "Nock 1 Arrow" added to realoding methods list (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Edit:But a big what the heck on Predator V having base accuracy of 5, same as Super Warhawk.

Also did i understand the new encumbrance rules correctly and now there's no limit on how a heavy an armor(single piece) one can wear?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ugh. Damaging weapons through matrix combat? I'll stick with mechanical parts, have been working for a couple hundred years and are pretty accurate without any electronics.

Oh wait. I bet this is a spot where you get a bonus because your gear is wifi.



Not happy.

Indeed... *Shakes Head*