Rules questions for 5th Options

[bonehead]

I still boggle at people declaring hackers not combat relevant. For frag's sake, they gave 'em all the offensive stuff Riggers used to do.

I think you've hit on what the actual problem was in SR4A: Deckers shouldn't have to rig to be relevant in combat.

[binarywraith]

I think you've hit on what the actual problem was in SR4A: Deckers shouldn't have to rig to be relevant in combat.

Why not?

Faces have to Sammy.

[Seerow]

Why not?

Faces have to Sammy.

Not true. They can also Mage. Shaman faces aren't exactly uncommon, and with the new Mystic Adept rules, it'll probably be even more common than before.

Either way, Face isn't a major character archetype. It isn't something defining about the character. You may choose to play a Face, but in terms of actual resource investment, it only takes a fraction of your resources. Compare the level of investment to casting, decking, rigging, or even mundane combat/infiltration, and being able to talk to people is relatively minor. It typically represents a relatively minimal resource investment to do.

You can argue that shouldn't be the case, and you should be able to invest more into being a Face in exchange for gaining an actual role in combat. If that is what you actually want, I want to ask one thing, can you name any example of a character in fiction that walks into a fight unarmed, with no magic, and just talks... and actually succeeds in combat? I can't think of one. In fact the closest thing I can think of is the D&D4e Warlord, and even there you typically had a weapon and knew how to use it. Also, even if that really was all you wanted to do, SR4 did have the Commanding Voice adept power which pretty much let you shout at people and cause mayhem in combat without touching a gun.

So please elaborate here, what is it you want? Do you actually want an expansion of the Face role, or are you just using the Face as a false equivalency to provide an excuse for Hackers not being able to do anything with their specialty in combat?

[binarywraith]

I'm trying to point out that SR4 hackers are essentially a pet class, to use distasteful MMO jargon. Doing dumb things to the setting in order to give them more direct combat options is silly.

We are talking about a team-based tabletop RPG. Not every character is going to, or should be equally useful in every situation. This is why direct combat isn't the only challenge in the GM's toolbox. Traps, security, and information gathering are arguably more important, and those are areas that a hacker is uniquely equipped to excel in.

[Umidori]

The problem as I see it is that instead of making Hacking itself more powerful, the new rules make everything else weaker by exposing them to unrealistic vulnerabilities. Thus, my proposed fix would be to instead just make Hacking stronger. You want to make hackers more combat proficient? Give them the tools to let them be, don't take tools away from others.

Instead of requiring gear to be wireless enabled to get bonuses that shouldn't in any way depend on wireless, give hackers a "hacking gun" - a small handheld device that operates off of their hacking skills instead of combat skills, and which affects electronics in close proximity.

Make it operate by way of some handy McGuffin - high intensity beams of focused energy; integral and irremoveable GOD mandated factory installed override chips which forcibly turn the wireless on when receiving the proper codes; a swarm of flying nanites that home in on the kind of electrical fields and radio waves generated by 'ware and gear and infest and compromise them; sticky or spike projectiles that tap into a person's PAN and act as a wireless access point for the hacker until removed (with great difficulty); some strange new quirk of Technomancy combined with developments in Manatech to create "Manatech-nomancy" devices which allow you to "magically" tap into an otherwise protected system at short range; whatever.

There are countless ways to come up with new tricks and tools for hackers, without stumbling over the issues of "punishing" other archtypes or ruining internal logical consistancy.

~Umi

[apple]

but in terms of actual resource investment, it only takes a fraction of your resources.

I disagree. Charisma, Edge, multiple social and knowledge skills, cyberware, bioware (depending on which chameleon option you use) - a social chameleon (as in: specialed set up and not only charisma 4 and con (seduction) 4+2) can take a significant amount of nuyen and Karma. Perhaps not as much nuyen as a dedicated rigger/sam, perhaps not as much Karma as a full mage, but if you want to specialise and really push the limit you will have to invest a significant amount of your game ressources.

SYL

[RHat]

I disagree. Charisma, Edge, multiple social and knowledge skills, cyberware, bioware (depending on which chameleon option you use) - a social chameleon (as in: specialed set up and not only charisma 4 and con (seduction) 4+2) can take a significant amount of nuyen and Karma. Perhaps not as much nuyen as a dedicated rigger/sam, perhaps not as much Karma as a full mage, but if you want to specialise and really push the limit you will have to invest a significant amount of your game ressources.

SYL

Charisma +4, Influence 4, Tailored Pheromones or Kinesics 3, and possible a quality or two. Done. The rest starts you into crossing over into other roles.

I'm trying to point out that SR4 hackers are essentially a pet class, to use distasteful MMO jargon. Doing dumb things to the setting in order to give them more direct combat options is silly.

We are talking about a team-based tabletop RPG. Not every character is going to, or should be equally useful in every situation. This is why direct combat isn't the only challenge in the GM's toolbox. Traps, security, and information gathering are arguably more important, and those are areas that a hacker is uniquely equipped to excel in.

This is true. It does not, however, mean that there are no circumstances where every character should be relevant.

I still boggle at people declaring hackers not combat relevant. For frag's sake, they gave 'em all the offensive stuff Riggers used to do. Drone riggers are absurdly effective in combat, simply because they can easily outnumber the enemy. Did that somehow change, or is this just the usual grognards declaring Hackers not 'combat effective' because they don't benefit as much from the sort of rules abusive twinking that Adepts do?

A hacker is not automatically a rigger - going for a full hacker/rigger is pretty much a full build, and in the case of technomancers that issue only gets worse. While it's an easy enough crossover, it is far from the only option and the design of the game needs to account for that.

[Tycho]

and? The Hacker needs only 5skills (Computer, Data Search, Hacking, Electronic Warfare, Cybercombat) and a bunch of cash.

[RHat]

A whole not of programs, Hardware, Software, a bunch of ware... While no character "type" consumes all of your resources, building a good hacker consumes a pretty large share.

[apple]

Charisma +4, Influence 4, Tailored Pheromones or Kinesics 3, and possible a quality or two. Done. The rest starts you into crossing over into other roles.

Your reduction of a face to "charisma und influence" is like "a sam only need agiliy and automatics). Charisma may be the main attribute and could be enough for an acceptable face (just like "I have agi 6 and automatics 4 and wired reflexes 1 and a smartlink" could be enough for a decent samura). The moment you push your role (that of a social chameleon) to the limit (as the hacker or the sam) you add voice modulators, perception ware, false fronts (or puzzle ware) , improved skills, enthralling performce, commanding voice (in the case of an adept of course only), knowledge skills, logic, DNA Masking/alteration, intuition (after all, high reaction, strength and body are expected from a samurai as well, not only agi for shooting) etc. A face is not only "he can talk", just as the samurai is not only "he can shoot". It is true, that a face can easier combined with other roles and archetypes - making a decent hacker-mage or to push a rigger/sam to the limit costs more nuyen and karma. But please, do not reduce a face to charisma + con - otherwise a sam will be reduced to agi + automatics + smartlink, a hacker to logic + hacking and a mage to magic + spellcasting + stunbolt.

SYL

[Shemhazai]

I think I read that essence will factor into social interactions.

I like the idea of a face that is also a good infiltrator (sometimes able to con her way out of situations when seen). So infiltration, running, jumping, climbing, etc. could be useful. Also, I like the idea of being a good investigator, so knowledge skills and of course contacts would be helpful. Even the ability to work undercover would be fun, maybe even needing unarmed combat when discovered. I think a wide range of attributes and skills could help a well-rounded, face character.

[RHat]

But much of that also helps you cross into, say, infiltration. That is more my point. Simply put, the Face represents a smaller share of your overall resources,

[apple]

"smaller sahre of overall resources" sounds way better and different to "it only takes a fraction of your resources."

SYL

[Glyph]

I guess the question should become, why should a hacker take so much in skills and resources? Instead of giving them all these requirements, making them a "core class", and contriving these stupid ways they can be useful in combat, why not just have a hacking skill that, like the infiltration skill, many characters will take?

Or, if you want to keep them as a "pet class", then instead of Ghost In The Shell-type hacking, have them stick to their main roles - scouring the matrix for information or leads, breaking into secure data storage, subverting security systems, drones, and tacnets, and keeping their team connected but not vulnerable. Hackers have a ton of useful stuff to do! The don't need this nonsense of turning people's wired reflexes off, making their guns eject their clips, and such. If they want to get involved in combat, nothing is stopping them; it isn't too difficult to make a hacker/sammie.

[phlapjack77]

If they want to get involved in combat, nothing is stopping them; it isn't too difficult to make a hacker/sammie.

+1. SR is supposed to be a classless system, yet these new rules are pushing it into a much more class-like direction. There are archtypes, but they aren't supposed to be classes. Yet now "the hacker" needs combat abilities, just like "the mage" and "the fighter sammie" have combat abilities. There's isn't anything stopping any character from picking up several ways to be relevant in combat (except for the magic/mundane divide I suppose), but these new wireless-hacking rules have the feel of giving the "hacker" a new class-feature thing to do in combat.

[Shinobi Killfist]

+1. SR is supposed to be a classless system, yet these new rules are pushing it into a much more class-like direction. There are archtypes, but they aren't supposed to be classes. Yet now "the hacker" needs combat abilities, just like "the mage" and "the fighter sammie" have combat abilities. There's isn't anything stopping any character from picking up several ways to be relevant in combat (except for the magic/mundane divide I suppose), but these new wireless-hacking rules have the feel of giving the "hacker" a new class-feature thing to do in combat.

I'm not seeing it like that. Don't get me wrong I think wireless cyber is lame, but I don't see it as an attack on the classless system. I kind of suspect the hacker is mostly going to apply minor penaties, so the Sam shooting them will be a more effective choice and quite frankly the decker hacking a drone and shooting them or just shooting them with his own gun might be the better choice. So yeah its a combat option, but I doubt it will make the decker some universal one skill set almost a class character.

[RHat]

I guess the question should become, why should a hacker take so much in skills and resources? Instead of giving them all these requirements, making them a "core class", and contriving these stupid ways they can be useful in combat, why not just have a hacking skill that, like the infiltration skill, many characters will take?

Or, if you want to keep them as a "pet class", then instead of Ghost In The Shell-type hacking, have them stick to their main roles - scouring the matrix for information or leads, breaking into secure data storage, subverting security systems, drones, and tacnets, and keeping their team connected but not vulnerable. Hackers have a ton of useful stuff to do! The don't need this nonsense of turning people's wired reflexes off, making their guns eject their clips, and such. If they want to get involved in combat, nothing is stopping them; it isn't too difficult to make a hacker/sammie.

You miss a few design concerns by a wide margin.

On the first point, that's a problematic suggestion because a focused hacker is a valid concept that the system needs to support. For some extremely valid hacker concepts, both normal combat and rigging are completely inappropriate.

Further, there is the idea that the system is not supporting a concept if that concept cannot impact general-case combat - it is true that no character is going to be involved in every challenge, but it is also true that some challenges necessitate that every character be able to be involved.

[Epicedion]

You miss a few design concerns by a wide margin.

On the first point, that's a problematic suggestion because a focused hacker is a valid concept that the system needs to support. For some extremely valid hacker concepts, both normal combat and rigging are completely inappropriate.

Further, there is the idea that the system is not supporting a concept if that concept cannot impact general-case combat - it is true that no character is going to be involved in every challenge, but it is also true that some challenges necessitate that every character be able to be involved.

Why does every character need to fit some combat-effective archetype?

[Umidori]

They don't. Full stop.

That said, I agree that hackers are too costly. If you specialize in a non-combat role, you should still be able to at least be useful in combat. Comparison to Faces is apt - no one expects a Face to end a firefight with a winning smile. The difference is that you can build an effective face and still have character resources left over to spend in other areas, including combat skills if you so choose. Not so with hackers, unless they go full hog on Rigging.

~Umi

[Shinobi Killfist]

Why does every character need to fit some combat-effective archetype?

Because combat is one of those situations that everyone needs to be able to participate in effectively. I'm not saying I agree with him, but that is what he said. Some apsects of the game are things he thinks everyone needs to be involved in. I'm nost sure why a focussed decker needs to be a viable concept but a focussed face doesn't, or why it breaks that focus to be a half assed shot, or hell just rely on a drones piloting skills and have it shoot and drive for you, or why he not only needs to partiicpate in combat but through directly hacking cyber. And honestly while it is currently expensive to be a decker, our team has seen combat deckers, rigger deckers, a combat medic decker etc. It has neve consumed all of there resources and usually not that much more than a faces.

[Epicedion]

Because combat is one of those situations that everyone needs to be able to participate in effectively. I'm not saying I agree with him, but that is what he said. Some apsects of the game are things he thinks everyone needs to be involved in. I'm nost sure why a focussed decker needs to be a viable concept but a focussed face doesn't, or why it breaks that focus to be a half assed shot, or hell just rely on a drones piloting skills and have it shoot and drive for you, or why he not only needs to partiicpate in combat but through directly hacking cyber. And honestly while it is currently expensive to be a decker, our team has seen combat deckers, rigger deckers, a combat medic decker etc. It has neve consumed all of there resources and usually not that much more than a faces.

Ugh.

All it takes for someone to be useful in a fight is a few points in a gun skill and a good sense of cover management.

[binarywraith]

Let's address this directly. For all that it's being touted as making hackers combat effective, how exactly does all of this help a hacker in, say one of the most common combat moments in all of Shadowrun.


Decker A is walking down the street, minding his own business, on his way to bible study class. Two Halloweeners, having decided that he looks like he'll make fun noises when they kick his spleen in, step out of the alleyway, armed with a length of chain and an 18" black rubber dildo, resepectively.


How does poor littler Decker A preserve his physical integrity and ocular virginity?


I'll give you a hint, it involves either fast talking, fast running, or fast shooting. None of which all the hacking prowess in the world is going to help with.

This whole boondoggle is just forcing more vulnerability onto every other character in the game, and it isn't even fulfilling the stated purpose because it only makes hackers more combat viable in edge cases where they're fighting someone heavily cybered or who is using advanced weaponry. Mages, adepts, spirits, critters, and regular old dudes with bats all get to bend him over and use him as an umbrella stand.

[TeOdio]

Why does every character need to fit some combat-effective archetype?

Simple. I've run hundreds of hours of Shadowrun and a LOT of combat. If I don't want a player sitting around like bump on a log I feel they SHOULD be a part of the combat / action scenes. Even simple one or 2 round combat scenes can chew up a lot of time when there are multiple passes and multiple attacks being staged every pass. Players know it too, so most of the hackers I've run always had a bit of Street Sam in them or drones to fight conventionally. I am quite curious to see how Matrix / tech attacks might work (and I'm sure there is a defense against them) just to make things different. I've always wanted to see the three layers of Shadowrun jibe together better in action scenes but it never played out that way because Hacking needed too much prep to be successful in a combat situation. I don't know if it will be like I hope, but I am pretty geeked thinking about Sammies shooting it out with sec guards while mages duke it out with spirits and the Security spider is counterhacking the decker's tech attacks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Troyminator]

And yet.... I feel punished.

And not in a good way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Let's address this directly. For all that it's being touted as making hackers combat effective, how exactly does all of this help a hacker in, say one of the most common combat moments in all of Shadowrun.

Decker A is walking down the street, minding his own business, on his way to bible study class. Two Halloweeners, having decided that he looks like he'll make fun noises when they kick his spleen in, step out of the alleyway, armed with a length of chain and an 18" black rubber dildo, resepectively.

How does poor littler Decker A preserve his physical integrity and ocular virginity?

I'll give you a hint, it involves either fast talking, fast running, or fast shooting. None of which all the hacking prowess in the world is going to help with.

This whole boondoggle is just forcing more vulnerability onto every other character in the game, and it isn't even fulfilling the stated purpose because it only makes hackers more combat viable in edge cases where they're fighting someone heavily cybered or who is using advanced weaponry. Mages, adepts, spirits, critters, and regular old dudes with bats all get to bend him over and use him as an umbrella stand.

A couple of ways he can preserve his physical integrity, ocular virginity, and general dignity.
1: The Decker's trog heavy pal the Halloweeners didn't see because he's wearing active camoflauge and covered by a high-Force Concealment decloaks behind them like a Klingon Bird-of-Prey and attempts to disprove the physical concept that two objects cannot occupy the same point in space-time with their heads.
2: The gun bunny on his arm (because sexy gun bunnies dig scrawny hackers, right?) drops two machine pistols into her hands and lights them up, then collects the 18" black rubber dildo as loot for later.
3: His pal the mage waves his hand, says "these are not the hackers you're looking for," and the Halloweeners go looking for their nightly skullfucktoy elsewhere.
3a. His pal the mage whips up a fireball and incinerates the Halloweeners.
4: The hacker drops a collapsable baton into his palm, activates his wired reflexes, and warps the baton around their skulls.
5: The hacker drops an Ares Predator into his palm, activates his wired reflexes and smartgunlink, and smokes both of the bastards.
6: The hacker sends a wireless command to his overwatch gun blimp, which deploys a semiautomatic sniper rifle and smokes both of the Halloweeners before they even know they've been targeted.
7: The hacker drops a pair of SMG ball-drones to the ground which deploy landing legs, acquire the Halloweeners as targets, and smoke them.
8: The hacker hacks GridGuide to reroute a passing motor vehicle through the Halloweeners at full speed.
9: The hacker fires up his wired reflexes and uses his extra speed, agility, and processing time to leg it faster than they can chase him.
10: The hacker fires up his pheremones and convinces the halloweeners to go fuck someone else's skull.
11: The hacker offers to pay them off and successfully convinces them that they can't just beat him up and take the bribe anyway.
12: The hacker calls Lone Star/Knight Errant, and happens to be in an area where they can and will actually arrive in time to do jack shit. (Or at all.)

In only one of these options is the hacker even hacking at all. That's about the only way I can imagine for Mr. Hacker to combat hack his way out of that situation. Everything else is based on having buddies, being clever, being prepared, or just plain out having invested in other skills/abilities/equipment.

Because combat hacking your way out of getting skullfucked by a couple of Halloweeners is dumb, and it only gets dumber from there, unless you happen to be fighting drones.