Rules questions for 5th Options

[RHat]

I think the logic he's going for is as follows:

P1: DNI is the method of activation involving the least action from the user.
P2: DNI access the a chem seal mandates that the chemseal be a part of your PAN.
C: Thus, having the chem seal be connected means that you can activate it and still easily be able to do other things.

Notably, if I'm reading the preview properly, a Free Action can be taken in an Action Phase where you would otherwise have no actions - for example, if you get 2 passes and a gas attack occurs in the third, if you have a connected chem seal you can still activate it. It would appear to be the difference between doing it with a thought or doing it with a physical action.

[apple]

we don't know, without the book in front of us, if there is now a reason for that. People are acting as if an in-game reason could not possibly exist, which simply isn't true.

But we know it already ... it was explained by JH in a blog post, both the intention and the implementation. Everything must be connected in order to be able to be hacked and since player characters does not want to be hacked and went offline (disabling wireless except for a very secure commlink and using cable/skinlink for the rest of the PAN, which defeats the purpose of wifi in the first place) they made everything online if they want to have the boni (ex chem seal, vision enhancement, wired reflexes + reaction enhancer).

@Aaron
Both ... it simply does not make sense. Because someone could of course argue, that there is DNI, cable and/or skinlink. Which apparently is sooooo much slower (when it comes to a data transmission range of ... 2 meters) that there is a notable difference in response time. Which is in the same area as "wear blinking pink clothes for a -3 to dodge/infiltration and a +3 for initiative".

SYL

[redwulfe]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards. Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it. It already doesn't make since cause elves don't exist. So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster. To be honest to me it is a very small problem, in a game I love to play. Every edition of any game has had stuff that made no since, this one is no different.

It becomes really hard to come on to the forums to talk to others about a game you enjoy, when most post are cynical arguments against that game. With that I would like to take back this thread to its original purpose to ask questions about 5th.

1. Could someone tell me if they removed the armor penalty from called shots?
2. Are the QuickStart hacking rules close to the book and if not, can someone elaborate on the differences?

[Sengir]

If DNI alone is sufficient for that purpose, DNI is also a possible hacking channel.

And why would that be? Because the signals passing through your neural system (which is all that DNI generates) are the same as Matrix signals and hackable? I don't think you would like the implications of that...

[Sengir]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards. Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it.

What I find odd is that these two points get regurgitated no matter how often they have been shot down.

[ShadowDragon8685]

What I find odd about this conversation is that people are trying to justify technology that is 60 years beyond us. 60 years in the past we would have had a hard time justifying today's technology in some regards.

Because cause and effect are violated by this nonsense, that's why.

Sixty years ago, if you had told someone that he would be able to place a telephone call from inside a moving vehicle, he would have said that was ridiculous, but then if you told him to just posit the fact that the nation becomes covered in radio repeaters that enable a small handheld device to reach anyone, he would likely have agreed it was possible. If you then told him it was possible for that same device to use its radio transmitter to open your garage door, or to use an infra-red light beam to control your television, he would likely say it seems far-fetched, but not technically impossible. (Also, if you were talking to the right person, you probably just sped up the invention of cellular telephones by thirty years.)

If you had told that same man that by choosing to use those features, however, you opened yourself up to the risk that malicious people would then be able to use your phone to make your car's tires deflate, he'd call bullshit, and at the very least demand to know why your car's tires are radio-controlled. Are you seeing the problem here?!

It does not make any kind of sense, it does not follow any kind of plausible cause-and-effect. There is literally no reason for Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers to be incompatable, unless you open yourself up to a hostile hacker shutting them off by connecting them to the Matrix. Why? What possible use do those things have for Matrix input?

None. Jack shit. Their entire goal in life is to speed up the rate at which signals inside your body travel from your brain to your extremities and the speed at which your brain processes the input coming from your senses, allowing you to react quicker. Would they benefit from being connected to each other, certainly, but they don't need to be exposed to the wireless world for that to happen. They can be connected internally, either through running some ultrafine superconductors (something that evidently exists in Shadowrun, whose existence I can accept on the face of it,) from your wired reflexes to your reaction enhancers, or by using the skinlink electrical field that we've already established has sufficient bandwidth for full DNI control over your smartgun.

Second off this is a game where magic and dragons exist it isn't our world so why do we try and justify it. It already doesn't make since cause elves don't exist.

Oh no, you did not just go there.

Just because something explicitly violates the laws of physics doesn't mean everything does. "Magic" is a great excuse - it's literally magic. The laws of physics as we understand them need not apply - but the laws of magic, which are predefined and only wiggle around slightly with each new iteration of the setting, do apply to magic. For instance, Magic cannot conjure physical mass from nothing, it cannot enable a physical object to teleport, it cannot allow one to travel through time - these are set precepts that everyone, from the humblest Magic 1 hedge wizard to the mightiest Great Dragon and Immortal Elf must abide by. And nothing in the magic rules changes how computer science works. Magic and electronics explicitly don't get along well. If I could waggle my fingers and chant some mumbo-jumbo and chuck a fireball in real life, that wouldn't mean that the entire nature of telecommunications just changed.

You don't get to play the "Magic exists so shut up" card, not in Shadowrun, not when there isn't an explicitly magical phenomena at work.

So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster. To be honest to me it is a very small problem, in a game I love to play. Every edition of any game has had stuff that made no since, this one is no different.

It's one thing to have rules oversights create situations that makes no sense, it's quite another to do something absolutely made of 100% bullshittium to incentivize people to open themselves up to Matrix attacks in ways that do not make sense, just because they've been telling hackers for an edition that they can hack people's cyberlimbs but literally nobody in the history of ever saw any reason to enable wireless on their augs.

This is very much in the realm of "accept a -3 penalty to infiltration/stealth/disguise for wearing a bright pink glowing and blinking outfit, get +3 initiative." It's the kind of straight-up MMORPG balance "logic" that we do not want in our table-top RPGs.

Hacking is not usually a combat skill. If the hacker wants to hack in combat, he picks up a gun and shoots someone. Or maybe, situation permitting, he hacks the other guys' drones and auto-turrets. If he's really desperate, he can try hacking the lights and environmental controls to impose a penalty on them. But he shouldn't get to hack their cyberlimbs, because what fucking moron would leave his cyberlimbs open to wireless attack?! No moron, that's who. Your cyberlimbs have no business being connected to the wireless Matrix, they perform no Matrix function, there is no reasonable, consistent explanation for why anyone who isn't a complete idiot would leave his cyberlimbs open to wireless attack! They perform a function, that being to manipulate objects, most likely better than your original meat-and-blood arm did. Nothing in their operation or job requirements necessitates wireless connectivity.

Neither does your chemsuit - and don't give me any bullshit about it sealing up based on what a remote sensor told it. The only way that makes sense is if you have the foresight to deploy sensors in advance, and if you're that reasonably worried about chemical attack, you don't leave the question up to chance, you just seal up from the get-go. If the sensor is on the suit itself, then there is literally no need for wireless connectivity, because the sensor can be hard-lined to the suit. And if there is no sensor, but it's all about you sending the DNI command to seal up, then there is literally no reason again, because it can either be skin-linked, or even hardlined into your datajack.

It becomes really hard to come on to the forums to talk to others about a game you enjoy, when most post are cynical arguments against that game. With that I would like to take back this thread to its original purpose to ask questions about 5th.

Welcome to Dumpshock, we're a bunch of cynical, analytical bastards who demand that our games follow some kind of consistency. Hope you enjoy your stay, and maybe, through osmosis, will pick up enough critical thinking to say for yourself "Hang on, that does not make sense!"

[apple]

So maybe corps and such have decided to put low powered tack nets in there reaction enhancer products and maybe from that they have chem seals with early detection and asist the user in sealing up faster.

1) Please answer the question why the early detection system cannot use cable, DNI or skinlink to transmit the information. Or do you mean that there are external sensors, which can only be accessed by wifi to get their information? If yes, do you imply that I loose my online chem seal bonus if there are no such sensors, despite being online?
2) Please answer the question why I have to buy a reaction enhancer cyberware and not a simple tacnet programmm for my commlink to get the boni?
3) Do you imply that if I buy I high powered tacnet, I would not have to buy a reaction enhancer and still get +3 to my reaction attribute?
4) Please wear blinking pink clothes for +3 to initiative and -3 to dodge/infiltration. Make sense? No? Well, it´s magic.

As it was explained above: it´s called internal logic. If your attempts to explain something simply does not hold up to the next question or lead to a whole new area of questions, effects and problems, then perhaps your attempt to explain something is not very good.

SYL

[Patrick Goodman]

*pulls out a tape measure and walks around, taking notes*

They're all the same length, boys. Put 'em back in your pants, please.

[Shemhazai]

Would they benefit from being connected to each other, certainly, but they don't need to be exposed to the wireless world for that to happen. They can be connected internally, either through running some ultrafine superconductors (something that evidently exists in Shadowrun, whose existence I can accept on the face of it,) from your wired reflexes to your reaction enhancers, or by using the skinlink electrical field that we've already established has sufficient bandwidth for full DNI control over your smartgun.

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

Why would wireless do that? If your body could not do that on its own, you would not be able to walk. *shrug*

[apple]

I don't think a purely wired network can do that.

And why not?

SYL

[binarywraith]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

They've done that, explicitly, since Shadowtech at the very least.

Via DNI.

It's the whole basis for how Move By Wire works, for drek's sake.

[Tanegar]

<brilliance>

Please accept this point of Karma in recognition of the foregoing.

[apple]

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL

[cryptoknight]

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL

What's the online bonus for having an online Katana ?

What's the online bonus for having online sushi?

What's the online bonus for having online water?

[Epicedion]

You've done a great analysis, but there's always something that fiction writers can add that we haven't thought of. Isn't it possible that for wired reflexes and reaction enhancers to work together (and stack bonuses), one system would need to communicate to the other real-time location/movement/direction data of various body parts? I don't think a purely wired network can do that. Using wireless enables your systems to know the relative locations and current movement of your hands, feet, elbows, knees, and so forth.

I've thought of other issues, too, but I want to read the book first.

The issue with that is that older versions of wired reflexes and reaction enhancers didn't need this. Since they keep advancing the timeline, this means that new tech needs to perform as well or better with respect to the old tech, or there needs to be some additional complication that forces technology down the new path and causes everyone to adopt it.

They've apparently taken that 'additional complication' track with the return of Decking -- something happened and now the only viable solution is cyberdecks. I haven't seen an answer for the wired-to-wireless tech question, the in-universe reasoning for shifting the processing burden to the PAN without drastically improving everything's function from the common baseline. What I mean by that is that gear provides some bonus, and for the sake of game balance those bonuses can't drastically change. I'm presuming here that online Wired Reflexes (or however) will be about the bonus you'd expect from being familiar with Wired Reflexes (or however) over the editions, and that the offline version is going to be underpowered in some way, since to flip that and make offline the common baseline and online improved somehow would probably wreck game balance.

This is why earlier I suggested, without knowing anything about the justification behind all this, that hackers could have some new technology which allows them to invade the DNI without needing it to be hooked up to a broadcast node. The protections against this could be to make the technology really dumb (offline) and therefore less effective than gear of yore, or online everything to get the benefit of the anti-hacking suite that protects the rest of your PAN.

I don't know if this is the case. If offline is weak compared to the baseline, and online is at the baseline, then I'd really like to see something like this. Rather than just a drastic shift in the way Shadowrun technology supposedly works (hey, two years ago no one needed this, right?) for no discernable lore reason.

[KarmaInferno]

That's the point - we don't know, without the book in front of us, if there is now a reason for that. People are acting as if an in-game reason could not possibly exist, which simply isn't true.

I do, in fact, have the book in front of me.

Been going through it the past few days. Most wireless boni do not justify their existance in-game.




-k

[Sunshine]

The phrase you're looking for is "internal logic," not "realism." Magic does not break the internal logic of the game; always-online cyberware does.

...because you say so, hmm? Lets try to have this discussion offline, will ya?

I get why and what some are upset about and I think it is everybodies good right to change the game into his or her favorite toy.

If you want to play by the rules and you do not want your character to need online cyberware, don't get any. I still do not know the reasoning behind the wifi/ matrix enabled stuff but I expect it to be something different than "everything has a price". Maybe its some kind of SOTA thing or whatnot. I could speculate for hours (and to some extend I have).

Here are some of my speculations:

If you had told me 15 Years ago that I would have to be always on to play practically a single player pc game I'd have called BS. Why would anybody in their right mind do that? Competition would make fun of them and thank them for the business. Week after week I see how it is MORE complicated to work arround online/ internet/ wifi connection. Why should I expect it is less so in 60+ years when the bord computer of my car is cross referencing my tire pressure with weather information and road conditions to correct for optimal pressure in relation to speed/saftey factoring in other registered cars in my vincinity. Sure I can turn that off, but I'd loose a lot of comfort/security. There is your risk reward example.

I'll try an example with the reaction enhancer/ wired reflexes setup. The metahuman body is a complex system that due to some reasons does not react well to overstress. As to this the testoterol and cortisol levels may not reach certain heights or lows. The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

If in a make believe game you lack the imagination to make believe I'll say you made a choice or you are not trying hard enough. I want to believe.

What´s the online bonus for having an online cyberlimb?
What´s the online bonus for having an online smartlink?
What´s the online bonus for having an online medkit?
What´s the online bonus for having an online skillwire?

SYL


What's the online bonus for having an online Katana ?

What's the online bonus for having online sushi?

What's the online bonus for having online water?

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!), online sushi - now I can order that from the comfort of my home directly correlated with my NatVat CyberDiet calculator for perfect nutrition choices, water - pollution is rampant - nanosecond uppdates to my chemfilter waterpurification unit (works perfectly with my CyberDiet for a monthly fee of 15Y/ month).
Now make something up for online shoelaces... ..or just don't bother trying if you do not want to, you are after all a free person.

love,
Sunshine

[binarywraith]

This is why earlier I suggested, without knowing anything about the justification behind all this, that hackers could have some new technology which allows them to invade the DNI without needing it to be hooked up to a broadcast node. The protections against this could be to make the technology really dumb (offline) and therefore less effective than gear of yore, or online everything to get the benefit of the anti-hacking suite that protects the rest of your PAN.

I can only speak for myself here, but that right there would be enough to make me burn all bridges with this edition, because it is just plain stupid.

If a hacker can invade DNI without it needing to be online, there's no reason to play anything that isn't magically active, because you can literally be brainhacked. That is a thing that is so wildly stupid that I almost feel like I need to go place bets that someone'll actually print it.

[Epicedion]

If you had told me 15 Years ago that I would have to be always on to play practically a single player pc game I'd have called BS. Why would anybody in their right mind do that? Competition would make fun of them and thank them for the business.

This is pretty much what's happening with the 'always online' single-player games.

I'll try an example with the reaction enhancer/ wired reflexes setup. The metahuman body is a complex system that due to some reasons does not react well to overstress. As to this the testoterol and cortisol levels may not reach certain heights or lows. The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

Except that these things have been working for decades in-game. They've made the explicit choice to continue the existing lore, so they're a little late to the party to write in stuff like this.

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!), online sushi - now I can order that from the comfort of my home directly correlated with my NatVat CyberDiet calculator for perfect nutrition choices, water - pollution is rampant - nanosecond uppdates to my chemfilter waterpurification unit (works perfectly with my CyberDiet for a monthly fee of 15Y/ month).
Now make something up for online shoelaces... ..or just don't bother trying if you do not want to, you are after all a free person.

Again, the problem is that these are technologies that apparently didn't need this previously. If they want to toss in a major shift in how their technology works, there has to be an accompanying plausible explanation for that shift that answers the question "so why don't we just use the older technology that worked just fine without these penalties?"

[binarywraith]

This is pretty much what's happening with the 'always online' single-player games.

Yeah, note that Sony's spent the last week making Microsoft look like idiots over this very issue, and winning a lot of goodwill from their potential customers in the process.

Again, the problem is that these are technologies that apparently didn't need this previously. If they want to toss in a major shift in how their technology works, there has to be an accompanying plausible explanation for that shift that answers the question "so why don't we just use the older technology that worked just fine without these penalties?"

Hell, there should be in game people running around with the old 'ware still in them. Half or more of the Shadowtalkers got into the business back in the '50's at this point, and most of their 'ware is from that decade.

[apple]

I still do not know the reasoning behind the wifi/ matrix enabled stuff but I expect it to be something different than "everything has a price".

The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"

That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".

My request, that faces can do something in combat (like cursing for killing) was unfortunately ignored.

Maybe its some kind of SOTA thing

No.

The factors that need to be processed for a reaction enhancer and a wired reflex system to work in perfect unison (aka grant bonuses) in that specific person without causing spasms, cardiac problems, etc. are far to numerous or changing too fast to be patched into just one database chip. Turn off the online connection (and thus the auxillary processing power) and turn on both and we have a reason for cyberware drain resistance tests.

So you are implying that the firmware of my cyberware does not run on the cyberware but on an external servers (please check for matrix noise) and it is faster then cable/skinlink/DNI the two thing internally? Why cant I have this external processing power on my skinlinked commlink?

Again: a possible explanation should not lead to new questions or problems.

h. I want to believe.

I want to make sense.

From top to bottom - Doubles as are input device, updates for weapon mods, patches to *whatever kind of program code error thrown on whatever kind of hardwere you migt be using*, nanosecond updates to diagnostic libraries for the autodoc, patches and tweaks on resilence implementation with that particular skillsoft, got nothing right now - why use blades in the future? (ahh, because they are offline!),

None of it makes it necessary or believable that you have to be online in the very moment you want to use the skill or weapon. Pathing etc is usually done before you want to use something. You reload a weapon before combat, not start with an empty magazine.

SYL

[Sengir]

The issue with that is that older versions of wired reflexes and reaction enhancers didn't need this.

Retconns in the details of how something works are nothing new (see the death of Program Carriers) and IMO are acceptable, provided the new details are actually better, or at least does not dumber than before. "The fastest connection between two points is not a straight line but a detour through a worldwide datanet" would _slightly_ fail that test.

[Epicedion]

The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"

That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".

My request, that faces can do something in combat (like cursing for killing) was unfortunately ignored.

I understand there's a metagame reason, and I may even agree with some of it, but I'd like to see that it's not all metagame handwaving.

So you are implying that the firmware of my cyberware does not run on the cyberware but on an external servers (please check for matrix noise) and it is faster then cable/skinlink/DNI the two thing internally? Why cant I have this external processing power on my skinlinked commlink?

Again: a possible explanation should not lead to new questions or problems.

And then what happens to you when you step into a jammed, shielded, or otherwise blacked out area? Does all your gear cease functioning correctly?

"Sorry, dude, there's a rating 8 jamming field here, your eyes and ears no longer work."

[Seerow]

I can only speak for myself here, but that right there would be enough to make me burn all bridges with this edition, because it is just plain stupid.

If a hacker can invade DNI without it needing to be online, there's no reason to play anything that isn't magically active, because you can literally be brainhacked. That is a thing that is so wildly stupid that I almost feel like I need to go place bets that someone'll actually print it.

You can already get literally brainhacked by a mage.

Why is it different when a dedicated tech guy can do it? Especially when you consider that kind of actual technology isn't too far off from existing in real life?