Catalyst's garbage, Are there any SR books worth reading since "War!"? Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

Please don't lay words into my mouth. I said American Exceptionalism. This is a thing, just as patriotism is. Both get tiring for people outside of America very quickly.
I never implied nationalism, nor racism.

American exceprtionalism is nationalism repackaged. And hate of America gets very tiring for people in America very quickly.

[bannockburn]

From where do you even get that I'd hate America?
If you want to say that exceptionalism is a form of nationalism and discuss it further, this is not the place for it. Highly political topic and such.

What I personally do not like (and even there, hate would be a too strong word) is getting the stuff shoved into my face accompanied by bad writing.

Still, I bought the PDF, because in general I like mercenary info. Besides the FMC the only other disappointment were New Assets (because Ryan Mercury is - also - a boring mary sue). The rest were decent to cool. Which I also stated.
I can really excuse 2 bad things (and to be honest, the Assets article wasn't even as bad as the FMC one) when the 8 other things are at least tolerable. And they were more than tolerable.

[Kruger]

It sound what marines think of the marine corps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually, it sounds like they stole the Battle of Chosin Reservoir and moved it into Shadowrun. That battle was real, and the Marines really did end up in a fighting withdrawal where they inflicted ridiculous casualties on the Chinese forces pursuing them.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battle...0s/p/chosin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir


I haven't read the whole writeup, but that part doesn't sound like Mary Sues. It actually just sounds like lazy writing, lol. That's not somebody writing an inflated history of the Marine Corps, lol. That's somebody taking actual history and hoping nobody will notice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fatum]

Last I checked, "semper fi" was short for "Semper Fidelis", that is, "Always Loyal". To whom is a bunch of deserters, thieves and mercenaries loyal?
Just saying.

[DWC]

Last I checked, "semper fi" was short for "Semper Fidelis", that is, "Always Loyal". To whom is a bunch of deserters, thieves and mercenaries loyal?
Just saying.

That glorious bit of delusional hypocrisy is the inside joke at the core of the FMC. They, in their very existence, have taken a giant, steaming dump on the legacy of the old USMC.

[Fatum]

Heh... True... We do have some interesting "legends" in the Corps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No doubt every army unit has its own legendary exploits. I just can't really see the need to bring setting elements based on vastly exaggerating those into an established universe.

Maybe I am missing it but the PDF was 10 mercs. It was probably about the top 10 merc units in the world

Nope, it was about representing the spectrum of mercs on the market.

a world where merc untis play on the same field as special forces and standard military units.

Military units - yes. Special Forces - not really, minding that even the supposedly highly trained for mercs Free Marines are Professional Rating 3.

If the book was Special Forces I am sure each of the special forces untis would have write ups just as awesome or more awesome.

Yeah, you see, there's a certain difference here. Governments pay for the toys of the special forces, and they pick the creme de la creme of hundreds of thousands of recruits to get the very best, so it's small wonder that they're capable of wielding handfuls of elite fighters with the best equipment. On the other hand, merc units make do with what recruits they can find (that is, they don't get to choose or don't have recruit numbers as large to choose from), and pay for their toys out of their pay. Now, minding that only a handful of developed nations in the world can afford even a single carrier, please explain how a group of 150 to 3000 fighters can afford a fleet of three (their vessels are 884, 208 and 208 meters long, a real-life Nimitz class supercarrier is 332.8 meters long)?

Were te other merc untis descriptions like Met 10,000 yeah there are 10,000 of them but they suck.

{citation needed}
Especially minding the role MET played in the Euro Wars.

I more eye rolled at the idea of the UN having any say in anything in a Shadowrun setting.

Yeah, the UN apparently decides stuff now, despite all the previously established fluff stating that it's firmly in the pocket of the Corporate Court and more or less impotent.

[Fatum]

That glorious bit of delusional hypocrisy is the inside joke at the core of the FMC. They, in their very existence, have taken a giant, steaming dump on the legacy of the old USMC.

Oh no. They're known as one of the most honorable, reliable, and capable units in the world, and they still adhere to the traditions and ideas of the old United States Marine Corps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) It's just that many marines were loyal to the corps’ ideals and their brother marines instead of the so-called leaders. Scores of
marines didn’t like the idea of a possible second civil war and fighting their marine brothers. To remain true to their principles, they decided to save their beloved corps by breaking away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[bannockburn]

Fatum: The 884m is a metric conversion issue. The America class is 800-ish feet long. The writer or editor 'just' used a wrong unit.

[hermit]

To remain true to their principles, they decided to save their beloved corps by breaking away

The FMC: like Matt Ward's Grey Knights, only a lot less cool.

[DWC]

If the FMC had slipped into the newly formed Sioux Nation or PCC and began insurgency building operations to start a guerrilla war to bring down the Ghost Dance terrorists and their fledgling governments to help restore the shattered US, I might buy the FMC as something other than lies told by three staff officers who knew they were too big a batch of screw ups to ever make flag. But they didn't. They stole from the people they'd sworn to protect to bankroll an business to make themselves wealthy.

I know Shadowrun embraces the concept of the Unreliable Narrator and I love it for that, but sometimes things do need to be put in perspective.

[kzt]

Fatum: The 884m is a metric conversion issue. The America class is 800-ish feet long. The writer or editor 'just' used a wrong unit.

It's that patented CGL layers of expert editing in action.

[Patrick Goodman]

I more eye rolled at the idea of the UN having any say in anything in a Shadowrun setting.

Yeah, the UN apparently decides stuff now, despite all the previously established fluff stating that it's firmly in the pocket of the Corporate Court and more or less impotent.

Some of that might be my fault, or was at least exacerbated by me when I started in on the Infected in earnest a few years ago. As I was doing my research, I kept finding references to the UN doing this and the UN doing that, and having certain resolutions that mattered (or at least seemed germane) to Infected rights, and especially Asamando. So I kind of rolled with those, since they were already kind of established. Probably the most egregious thing I used with the UN resolution that let them trot into Asamando and get their inspiection team eaten in "Sleeping With the Enemy" in Storm Front.

I probably should have done something differently, but it seemed to work for me at the time. I'm sorry if I wound up making things worse in terms of suspension of disbelief.

[Critias]

Then suddenly, Storm Front.
MET2000 and Tsunami cease to exist in the war about nothing, because of zombie dust. Completely. Despite the fact, that MET2000 has 40% of their numbers in permanent posting with the AGS Bundeswehr.

I've got no dog in the FMC fight, but I'm something of a MET2K fan -- where are you getting that they completely cease to exist? The impression I got from Storm Front, and in fact rereading it right now to make sure I didn't miss something (and I may have!), was that Tsunami and MET2K tore the crap out of each other, but while both are decimated neither are destroyed. Black Star was the unit that seemed to have gotten totally fucked out of existence, but I felt like the others were just torn up and going to have to lick their wounds for a bit.

Is there something somewhere else I'm missing? It's been kind of a busy couple of months, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was overlooking something, but now I'm all curious.

[hermit]

The passage is:

Both MET2000 and Tsunami fucked each other up something fierce in the war’s final days, so don’t expect them to be world players for a while. (...) Good luck with that.(...) Right now, the biggest player on the block is 10,000 Daggers

Which removes all non-American mercenaries save for the daggers (designated villains?) from the picture.

The next big unit to watch out for was a latecomer to the war party: the Free Marine Corps. Not only have they impressed the UN with their ability to keep peace in Bogotá, but how many other merc units have their own navy?

Apparently, R.J. Thomas knew shit about what he was writing, because the MET, among other things, has substantial naval forces, as does Tzunami - where were they, fighting it out in Bogotá's high sea harbour? why are they not mentioned? Did they really sink all their ships just like that? But hey, we got the Fucking Mary-Sues instead, who have the longest warship ever built, because the author doesn't know how metric units work.

[Nath]

The actual appraisal :

Storm Front, page 33-34
The Battle of Bogotá has also changed the mercenary world as well. Both MET2000 and Tsunami fucked each other up something fierce in the war’s final days, so don’t expect them to be world players for a while. Combat, Inc. was also royally fucked, and now has the added bonus of Aztlan bounties on their heads. Good luck with that. And as we all know, Black Star is completely gone. Right now, the biggest player on the block is 10,000 Daggers, which managed to stay out of most of the heavy fighting. So they’re sitting pretty at the moment. The next big unit to watch out for was a latecomer to the war party: the Free Marine Corps. Not only have they impressed the UN with their ability to keep peace in Bogotá, but how many other merc units have their own navy?

EDIT - too slow

[Critias]

I read the "Good luck with that" as specifically to Combat, Inc, who not only got chewed up but are specifically listed as having bounties out on them.

But...anyways, whatever. *shrug* To me, it reads like Tsunami and MET2K are roughed up, but hardly destroyed. They're just not gonna be top-tier world-shaking merc units until they've had some time to recruit and retrain. If other folks read it like "zomg they're totally destroyed," I guess that's fair, but it's just not how it struck me, when I was reading over it. I just don't see where the "cease to exist, completely" came from.

[bannockburn]

Sorry. I overexaggerated that from my memory about this factoid. You're in fact mostly right, Critias. Let me eat some of my words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

After actual research: here's the quote:

Both MET2000 and Tsunami fucked each other up something fierce in the war’s final days, so don’t expect them to be world players for a while. Combat, Inc. was also royally fucked, and now has the added bonus of Aztlan bounties on their heads.

So, to put it in a better and more correct perspective: An army with 200k+ troops and several branches is not a world player anymore because they lost a war about nothing, where they lost an unspecified number of personnel. Going from the information on MET2000 in Fronteinsatz (German version of War!), they have five full battle groups. Two are for home protection, stationed with the Bundeswehr in the AGS. One is for Africa, another one for the Americas and another one for the rest of Europe, with Asia being under firm control of Tsunami (who aren't world players anymore as well) in regards to merc contracts.
Even assuming they'd send over a second battle group to Bogotá, this would pretty much mean a loss of about 80.000 personnel, plus heavy armaments and gear (further assuming an even split of personnel between the armies). I'm estimating conservatively here.

Furthermore, I totally forgot about Combat Inc., who are also out for the count because ... Aztlan put a bounty out? World wide? What?

Let's think about this for a moment. MET2000 is down to 120.000 troops. They need to lick their wounds, sure.
Then we get this gem:

The next big unit to watch out for was a latecomer to the war party: the Free Marine Corps. Not only have they impressed the UN with their ability to keep peace in Bogotá, but how many other merc units have their own navy?

Answer to that question: MET2000, for one thing. D'uh. Three of them, in fact.
Even going with the flow and allowing for the stupidly inflated numbers after the sudden windfalls and heightened recruitment drives, we have a unit at 3000+ troops competing with elite mercenaries like 10.000 Daggers (who managed to keep mostly intact) as well as the remains of the other big three.
The description in Storm Front further states that the FMC didn't even need to fight a lot. They just went in, and "quickly dispatched any hostilities encountered", and "[b]efore the FMC arrived, the fighting at Bogotá suddenly stopped". They then handily intercepted and took remaining fleeing Amazonian units into custody. Again, no mentioning of those units even trying to put up resistance.

That's fanboyism right there, and it really rubs me the wrong way, considering that the author apparently didn't know enough about the background of those big units (they are A corps in their own right, too!) to spell 'MET200K' (sic) right.

This whole thing begs the question: Who is gonna be a world player if highly trained numbers and versatility aren't enough anymore, even after heavy losses?


And I was probably ninja'ed thrice while writing that diatribe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fatum]

So, to put it in a better and more correct perspective: An army with 200k+ troops and several branches is not a world player anymore because they lost a war about nothing, where they lost an unspecified number of personnel. Going from the information on MET2000 in Fronteinsatz (German version of War!), they have five full battle groups. Two are for home protection, stationed with the Bundeswehr in the AGS. One is for Africa, another one for the Americas and another one for the rest of Europe, with Asia being under firm control of Tsunami (who aren't world players anymore as well) in regards to merc contracts.

Since I'm not willing to buy War! even with Pegasus corrections, could you please briefly sum up the part on their European deployment beyond Germany? I'm mostly asking for alt.War, so Eastern Europe and especially Poland, Ukraine, Transcaucasia and Russia interest me the most.

[Nath]

But hey, we got the Fucking Mary-Sues instead, who have the longest warship ever built, because the author doesn't know how metric units work.

This is actually not certain, since War! stated the Shibanokuji-class aircraft carrier built by Yamatetsu Naval Technologies "dwarfs even the largest cargo vessel". Considering the largest existing cargo vessel IRL nearly are 400 meters long, I wouldn't expect them to be dwarfed by anything under at least 600 or 700 meters minimum. And that would assume SR largest cargo ship are only as large as those who already exists nowadays. Because another author didn't know much about military or merchant vessels size.

[bannockburn]

Nath: Their ship is an old America-Class amphibious assault carrier (like the RL one, only overhauled). It is clearly an issue with metric units (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, and the Shibanokuji is 330m long.

[Critias]

Sorry. I overexaggerated that from my memory about this factoid. You're in fact mostly right, Critias. Let me eat some of my words (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

NP. Like I said, I wasn't arguing, so much as going "Wait, what? Where was that?!" and making sure I was caught up. I'm not taking sides or bickering or anything, just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.

[bannockburn]

No, it's alright, really.
After all, if I'm wrong somewhere, I like to be called out on it. No better way to improve. I also considered it a polite question and it certainly was a valid point, as I was clearly too lazy to look it up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nath]

Oh, and the Shibanokuji is 330m long.

In which book is there ore information on the Shibanokuji class? I don't remember seeing any.

EDIT - ah, found it, the table in War!.

[bannockburn]

In WAR!, table on p. 174, row 9, column 2

[hermit]

Since I'm not willing to buy War! even with Pegasus corrections, could you please briefly sum up the part on their European deployment beyond Germany? I'm mostly asking for alt.War, so Eastern Europe and especially Poland, Ukraine, Transcaucasia and Russia interest me the most.

MET 2000's ground forces ("Abteilung Heer") is made up of six divisions. 1st Division is permanently tasked with guarding the SOX containment zone. 2nd and 5th Division deploy internationally as the market demands, usually in smaller task forces set up as is needed. 3rd division is reserve and contains soldiers in training, on leave or otherwise unavailable. 4th Division is permanently stationed on the Balkans as part of the European Crisis Group. MCOM in Hannover also has division strength, but is largely C&C, aside from forces tasked to defend the AGS capital. Other sources claim "significant deployment" in Austria's Carinthian badlands, probably by 2nd or 5th division.

MET2000 opeates two full battlefleets of naval forces, currently deployed in three task forces: One before South America (Task Fleet Manaus), one in the Mediterranean (Task Fleet Adria), and one in the North- and Baltic seas (Task Fleet Pitcairn).

MET2000's air forces have their headquarters at former US base Ramstein, which also coordinates aispace control over the SOXcontainment zone. Secondary bases of MET2000's air forces include Sarajevo, Hannover, and "Amazonia".

MET 2000 operates their own special forces command - MET2000 Special Operations Division MSOD. Headquartered in Hannover, it coordinates international deployment of MET2000's special forces, recruites new talent and organises tight cooperation between MET2000 grunts, MSOD and Argus, the MET2000 intelligence company. Units are:
- Recon Infiltration Commando RICO is a unit of elite cyberninjas, tasked with behind-enemy-lines scouting as well as long-term infiltration of "enemies". They also do assassinations and are generally rather mysterious and probably relevant to Pegasus' plans in SR5.
- Tactical Assault Group TAG are heavy hitters, classical Delta style toopers who are called when ordinary troops cannot handle something. TAG like to blow up stuff behind enemy lines and train SWATs of various corps and the German police on the side.
- CBRNe Ops are the MET's specialists for radiological, chemical and biological warfare - an NBC squad for hire, since terrorists armed with NBC weapons are so common in SR. They know how to contain those agents and, since half of Germany is toxic sludge, are excellently trained.

They also have several subsidiaries, including their own supply chain, in cooperation with other megas, and are an A-rated international corporation themselves. Abteilung Heer alone fields around 100.000 soldiers, and the other branches probably make up for another 100.000. Even if they lost an entire Task Fleet (somehow) and an two divisions (somehow), they'd still be far, far bigger than even the souped-up FMC.

MET 2000 isn't Blackwater. They're Belltower. Only a lot more competent (really, Belltower goons are awfully stupid).