Catalyst's garbage, Are there any SR books worth reading since "War!"? Options

[Critias]

You're pretty off in a lot of ways, Udoshi, though the sentiment is appreciated. The fact you think me, Patrick, and Ray were really put in charge of anything just goes to show that we clearly spend entirely too much time on these forums; we're, all of us, just freelancers.

I'm -- putting it generously, because there's still line developers and editors and the like -- nominally "in charge" of individual products that I pitch and write (like Elven Blood, Neat, Way of the Adept, Land of Promise, and other solo-author stuff), at most. And I'm "in charge" of my chapters in shared products, or my fiction contributions to the same (stuff like Attitude, Spy Games, Street Legends, Storm Front, where I wrote chunks). But we're all just contractors, dude. We pitch an idea, someone else likes it, and we get paid to write it (and then someone else edits it, proofs it, etc, and hopefully it all falls into place). Aside from that, we all take part in the behind-the-scenes brainstorming and knife-fighting over ideas, themes, and metaplots, and try to get our voices heard (same as everyone else does). For instance, there's stuff about SR5 I'm terribly proud of (despite not being the one contracted to write it, because I argued for it and folks bought my logic and made changes), there's stuff about SR5 I'm not crazy about (despite me arguing for it, but other arguments winning out and other ideas making sense to TPTB). It's all part of a process with lots of people providing input and ideas, not anything that you can point to one of us and say "this dude totally did all of X."

As far as any distancing ourselves is going on? It doesn't come from any sort of dislike of "the Old Guard" (Patrick and Bull are "Old Guard" themselves, for instance), most of it that I can think of comes from trying to tone down the overt transhumanism that was cropping up in many corners of inherited SR4, and much of it comes from those brainstorming sessions (and, believe it or not, not from Jason twirling his mustachios like a serial villain and plotting retcons from his secret lair beneath a volcano). The tech level was moving in some directions many of us weren't crazy about, the focus of the setting was shifting into places that many of us didn't want it to go, some folks had some metaplot ideas, or what-have-you, so we sat down and hammered out ways to try and move things in new directions.

I...okay, here. I'll use my recent shake-ups in the Tir as an example, since it's the, well, example I'm the most personally familiar with (and so that I'm not speaking for anyone else, or putting words in anyone's mouth). I don't know what "the Old Guard" had planned for the Tir. Read over Sixth World Almanac, and the couple of lines in System Failure, and reconcile them with Shadows of North America and the old Tir Tairngire sourcebook, and slap on a layer of Jet Set and Twilight Horizon, with a pinch of Runner Havens for flavor. Take all that, and look at it about a year ago real-time, and tell me (a) what was going on in the Tir, (b) what the writers meant to be going on in the Tir. You can't. There isn't enough information there to make a cohesive setting, and "the writers" are scattered across three generations of Shadowrun creation, some of them are dead, some of them aren't writing any more. We don't know where the old IEs are scattered off to, we don't know how much (or how little) they're still influencing the Tir, we don't know what Princes are still in power (except for two), we don't know what the country's like (except for how Horizon is spinning it, and how Horizon spun it in the past)...so sitting down, rolling up my sleeves, and trying to make my favorite corner of the Sixth World playable again, I couldn't do anything but "distance" the setting from the "Old Guard," y'know? I didn't have their notes, I couldn't read their minds, I didn't have any way to know what plans any of them had (if they even had any). I had to look at what was written in canon, and I had to work with that -- their writing, not their intent -- and try to make things work again. I didn't retcon anything, I didn't undo anything, but I clarified what I could, I introduced a whole new slew of Princes so folks could tell their political stories, I tried to find the sweet spot between the original TT's awesome flavor but Magical ElfyLand That's Better Than You, The Rinelle Are Blowing Shit Up For Very Good Reasons But We Don't Know All Of Them, and the more recent corporate-backed blandness but tourist-friendly veneer. It all had to happen. It all had to be there. It all had to make sense...but the end result, I felt, if anything, had to be closer to the original awesomesauce of the TT sourcebook, which was the oldest source material we had (yes), but also the most in-depth and awesome. And then folks got Land of Promise, the end result of me trying to make sense of all of that, get the information and fallout into one place, and make it a cool setting for shadowruns again.

Maybe Nigel's spinning in his grave, I don't know. Maybe Tzeentch and the other SR3 Tir guys love it, or hate it, or haven't been bothered to read it, I don't know. I haven't even heard much from the other SR4 guys who wrote a few of those books that had info in them. I know what reviewers have told me and fans have told me, not what the Old Guard, the New Guard, or the Imperial Guard have said. I don't know what the Old Guard had planned, I know what my pitch was, and my project spec was, and I went to work and did the best I could to hammer things into shape and make it a country folks could play the game in again.

The same holds true for the follow-up politics in Storm Front (which I'm too much of a canon whore to put into Dirty Tricks, because we have the canon Tir election schedule and DT was being published too early to fit in the timeline, so I put it off until SF), and for the adventures set in the Tir in Elven Blood, and for me bringing Dodger back into the spotlight a bit, and for the gangs I've written about in my adventures, the criminal syndicates and locations I crib from Seattle sourcebooks to use in Neat, the espionage hotspots and organizations I wrote about in Spy Games, and on and on and on. We look at what's there in canon, we try to figure out what would be awesome to have happen next, and we write it. Sometimes that means a radical evolution of momentum we already saw, sometimes that means hitting the brakes on a metaplot a little bit, sometimes it means a crazy left turn, sometimes it just means a casual name-drop to add some flavor.

And -- believe it or not -- that's what we're all out to do. We don't have secret transcripts of Jordan Weisman and Nigel Findley planning things out decades in advance. We don't have a master plan left to us by the primogeniture, guiding the metaplot into the 2090s. We have a love of the game, a desire to keep writing, a hunger to let fans enjoy our work or play our adventures, and enough free time and masochism to waste our time doing this. We're not purposefully distancing ourselves from the Old Guard, because we don't know what the hell the Old Guard wanted.

You do not really expect that your beloved writers will say something openly against JH?

SYL

All snark aside, how many employees do you know who'll post on forums dedicated to their products, and cheerfully jump into a dogpile about their boss? And how many of them do you think would do so while planning to keep their jobs? In any industry, speaking about any employer, how many rational adults do you expect to post "herp derp my boss is an idiot and I hate him, LOLOLOLOL," really?

There's a difference between being critical of a process, and insulting your boss. You guys can expect some of us to do the former -- and we have, because trust me no one hates editorial mistakes more than the writers who have their name attached to a product -- but demanding we do the latter for your amusement, and acting like some precious point is being made if we refuse, is as inane as it is immature.

[Redjack]

So, back to my stuff is garbage.

Did they mis-edit your name out of War!? I looked and didn't see it.

An anticipated new edition sold out its very limited printing at a major gaming convention, when there is no actual release date for open sales?

Shocking.

This.

Am I understanding that there is no release date for SR5 and that Gen Con will only have SR5 games? What was played at Origins, a pre-release version?

[CanRay]

Did they mis-edit your name out of War!? I looked and didn't see it.

No, but all my stuff did come out after "Bogota!".

[Wakshaani]

I'll freely admit to being the weakest of the new writers. Shadowrun's the first thing that I've ever done professionally and, while I've followed the game since the launch in '89, I'm a fan first and foremost. You want to call me out on my stuff, I have no issue with it (I may, however, offer counterpoints to aspects.) Every book I work on helps me learn new aspects of writing and I'm still getting my feet wet, what, a year into this? Year and a half now.

You can pick on my stuff all day, I don't mind. Helps me improve as long as it's constructive. For instance, "Everything you touch is crap and I hate it", not so handy, but "This part about blah condtradicts blah. Was that intentional?" can be a big help.

Either way, I'm still going to come on here and talk to people, same as I did before being allowed to freelance. I love Shadowrun. I love talking about it and I love the fans ... Hell, I *am* a fan. Wouldn't be here if I wasn't. When something in a book lands wrong, I'm as ticked off about it as you are and, believe me, I'm crazy talkative whenever Shadowrun topics come up in writer emails and whatnot. I've bent ears and had my ears bent and things change because of it.

Ultimately, this is a collabrative effort by those who are given the trust to oversee a franchise. We're farming, making sure to plant seeds and reap what grows. Maybe you don't like the corn I do, I dunno, but I'm going to do what I can to help out.

Yeah, War! has issues. It was a few years ago in a rather bad situation. Everybody had to scramble to pick up the pieces and work with what they had.

SR5?

Blank slate.

New storylines are getting started, old stories getting wrapped up, really old stuff is being revisited, and the table's being set with severa new dishes.

I just hope you'll be willing to sample a few instead of focusing on the underdone burger you got a few years back.

[apple]

All snark aside, how many employees do you know who'll post on forums dedicated to their products, and cheerfully jump into a dogpile about their boss?

None - usually it´s in their working contract and it´s part of basic law that an employee have to show official/public loyality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

For the record: I did not asked anyone to say anything negative about their superiors.

SYL

[binarywraith]

I'll freely admit to being the weakest of the new writers. Shadowrun's the first thing that I've ever done professionally and, while I've followed the game since the launch in '89, I'm a fan first and foremost. You want to call me out on my stuff, I have no issue with it (I may, however, offer counterpoints to aspects.) Every book I work on helps me learn new aspects of writing and I'm still getting my feet wet, what, a year into this? Year and a half now.

You can pick on my stuff all day, I don't mind. Helps me improve as long as it's constructive. For instance, "Everything you touch is crap and I hate it", not so handy, but "This part about blah condtradicts blah. Was that intentional?" can be a big help.

Either way, I'm still going to come on here and talk to people, same as I did before being allowed to freelance. I love Shadowrun. I love talking about it and I love the fans ... Hell, I *am* a fan. Wouldn't be here if I wasn't. When something in a book lands wrong, I'm as ticked off about it as you are and, believe me, I'm crazy talkative whenever Shadowrun topics come up in writer emails and whatnot. I've bent ears and had my ears bent and things change because of it.

Ultimately, this is a collabrative effort by those who are given the trust to oversee a franchise. We're farming, making sure to plant seeds and reap what grows. Maybe you don't like the corn I do, I dunno, but I'm going to do what I can to help out.

Yeah, War! has issues. It was a few years ago in a rather bad situation. Everybody had to scramble to pick up the pieces and work with what they had.

SR5?

Blank slate.

New storylines are getting started, old stories getting wrapped up, really old stuff is being revisited, and the table's being set with severa new dishes.

I just hope you'll be willing to sample a few instead of focusing on the underdone burger you got a few years back.

You know, I'd love to be talking about what I'm reading in SR5 right now.

But despite it being out in hardcopy for a few people, we still don't have a release date.

[Patrick Goodman]

The other impression I got was that Jason Hardy has a giant hate boner for the Old Guard of shadowrun writers as well as the things they made, and wanted to distance the new products from the old stuff as much as possible. (A root cause for not wanting to deal with errata, bogota not being its own setting splatbook like runner havens, the direction of plot with stormfront, etc.)

Am I close at all? I'm just kind of talking out of my ass here.

"I love the old school feel of this piece. It's good that you try to connect with that. Keep that up." Those are words that Jason spoke to me before I started working on SR5. So no, I don't think Jason's got a "giant hate boner" for old-school SR or the writers thereof.

This is not to say that Jason and I agree on everything; we don't. We've have some grand old fights, some in private, some in the field of battle with all the other freelancers present. Some of those have been about "old school" means of doing things, some have not; some I've lost, some I've won. There are a lot of decisions he's made that I don't think were the right ones. There are more than a few of those in the new edition.

Did Jason want to distance himself from previous line developers? Sure he did. So did Rob Boyle when he took over from Mike Mulvihill (and I'd argue that Rob did more violence to the storyline and setting in his tenure than Jason has done in his). Mike Mulvihill did the same thing when he took over from Carl Sargent. It's not new. Be glad they weren't stupid enough to hire me to be LD when Rob left.

I don't know what the deal with errata is; that's one of the big areas of disagreement I have with him.

So I'm not really sure how close to right you are with your assessment, but I don't agree with it entirely.

You do not really expect that your beloved writers will say something openly against JH?

Why not? It wouldn't be the first time, and it likely won't be the last.

The fact you think me, Patrick, and Ray were really put in charge of anything just goes to show that we clearly spend entirely too much time on these forums....

That ain't no lie.

...much of it comes from those brainstorming sessions (and, believe it or not, not from Jason twirling his mustachios like a serial villain and plotting retcons from his secret lair beneath a volcano).

Though it would be all sorts of cool if there was a secret lair beneath a volcano. I'd be down with that.

I...okay, here. I'll use my recent shake-ups in the Tir as an example, since it's the, well, example I'm the most personally familiar with (and so that I'm not speaking for anyone else, or putting words in anyone's mouth). I don't know what "the Old Guard" had planned for the Tir.

While many of the specific references are obviously different, this is the same basic thought process behind what I'm trying to do with the Infected. Only more drawn out, because I have to do a lot of it over fiction, and I've not yet successfully pitched an Infected book, like Rusty did with Land of Promise.

But the thought processes are a lot alike. A lot alike.

[CanRay]

But despite it being out in hardcopy for a few people, we still don't have a release date.

There's a reason for that.

[binarywraith]

There's a reason for that.

I'm sure there is. It may even be a good reason, beyond being unsure if they can actually meet it. That does not mean it isn't both annoying and offputting.

[KarmaInferno]

As I understand it, the Origins run was from a print-on-demand service that was contracted to do this small rush edition when it became apparant the regular publishing run was not going to make it by the convention.


-k

[Belker]

It's pretty clear that what was just released at Origins was the complete SR5 core rules. From following the various CGL Twitter and Facebook posts, as well as side comments on the SR4 forums, I suspect what happened is that they ran into production delays getting such a large and complex (pull-out artwork being the complex part) hardback produced in time, and at appropriate level of physical quality. So the rules are clearly done. It's the physical book that isn't ready.

Jason Hardy is on record (see the video interview posted a week or so back) as saying that they won't announce the release until the product is in CGLs hands. That's a pretty conservative stance but having seen so many overly-optimistic release dates blow past in the nearly 40 years I've been a gamer, I won't fault them for that.

[Fatum]

It's pretty clear that what was just released at Origins was the complete SR5 core rules. From following the various CGL Twitter and Facebook posts, as well as side comments on the SR4 forums, I suspect what happened is that they ran into production delays getting such a large and complex (pull-out artwork being the complex part) hardback produced in time, and at appropriate level of physical quality. So the rules are clearly done. It's the physical book that isn't ready.

I am not quite sure why would that stop anyone from announcing a pdf release date.

[Belker]

I am not quite sure why would that stop anyone from announcing a pdf release date.

To not piss off the physical retail channel? Which, contrary to the belief of some, is still a viable and significant part of the RPG market?

[kzt]

Well, when FanPro released the SR4 limited edition they had a series of publishing nightmares trying to get the books to Gencon and ended up with a very limited number showing up. Luckily I had a vendor pass that show....

So I'm glad that CGL has taken aggressive steps to avoid that disaster.

[Critias]

I'm sure there is. It may even be a good reason, beyond being unsure if they can actually meet it. That does not mean it isn't both annoying and offputting.

And do you think it would be more or less annoying or offputting for them to announce a release date, and then not meet it because of issues with printing, customs, shipping, distribution, etc?

[Kruger]

So, back to my stuff is garbage.

Thanks.

You're probably in the wrong line of work if you can't take criticism, lol.

[Jaid]

You're probably in the wrong line of work if you can't take criticism, lol.

"cri·tique
/kriˈtēk/
Noun
A detailed analysis and assessment of something, esp. a literary, philosophical, or political theory.
Verb
Evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way: "the authors critique the methods used in research"."

"crit·i·cism
/ˈkritəˌsizəm/
Noun

The expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes: "he ignored the criticisms of his friends".
The analysis and judgment of a literary or artistic work: "methods of criticism supported by literary theories"."

"this is garbage" is not criticism. "X contradicts Y" or "i couldn't relate to that character because ________" or "this is too powerful/weak because _______" are kinds of criticism people should be able to take. i'll even accept "you need to work on your spelling" or "your writing is unclear, and i spent a lot of time confused", because while they're a bit vague and generalized, at least it tells a person what general area they need to improve (although i consider specifics or at least generalizations with specific examples to be much more useful, given that presumably the person already failed to notice any possible problems once and could easily do so again).

"this is garbage" is completely and utterly useless. it's not criticism. it's just an insult. it doesn't accomplish anything, or help anyone improve. it isn't detailed, isn't an analysis or assessment of anything, and does not have any information whatsoever on what the problem is. if you're going to try and claim that someone needs to be able to take criticism, maybe you should start by actually providing criticism instead of just insulting someone else's work.

[binarywraith]

And do you think it would be more or less annoying or offputting for them to announce a release date, and then not meet it because of issues with printing, customs, shipping, distribution, etc?

So long as the people who are really fiending for it could still get the PDF? Not having the hardback in hand would get a shrug and a 'I'll get it when I get it' from me.

[SirBedevere]

So far I have bought three 4E PDFs (I haven't bought any hardcopy books); Sim Dreams & Nightmares, Safehouses and Parageology and I have enjoyed all of them, and found them value for money. I particularly enjoyed Can-Ray's homage to 2XS in Sim Dreams (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Even though I don't play 4E I have found these PDFs useful sources to mine for my own games. No glaring errors or typos leaped to my attention but I must confess that I don't take much notice of the current metaplot as my own game diverged from canon some time ago.

I was put off by War! but I decided to take a chance on Safehouses and I'm glad I did. I have several more PDFs on my wish-list and I will continue to buy items that I think will improve my game. I do find reviews and feedback from posters helpful in making my choices.

[Udoshi]

You're pretty off in a lot of ways, Udoshi, though the sentiment is appreciated. The fact you think me, Patrick, and Ray were really put in charge of anything just goes to show that we clearly spend entirely too much time on these forums; we're, all of us, just freelancers.

Well, you're pretty much the only three who post here regularly, making you the defacto company faces in this place.

Or at least, the most memorable ones.

Hmn. That's given me a lot to think about. Still processing it.

Did Jason want to distance himself from previous line developers? Sure he did. So did Rob Boyle when he took over from Mike Mulvihill (and I'd argue that Rob did more violence to the storyline and setting in his tenure than Jason has done in his). Mike Mulvihill did the same thing when he took over from Carl Sargent. It's not new. Be glad they weren't stupid enough to hire me to be LD when Rob left.

I don't know what the deal with errata is; that's one of the big areas of disagreement I have with him.

This struck out in my mind, though. That's more or less what i was trying to say, but you phrased it WAY better, and significantly more politely than I did.

What IS with the errata, by the way? One of the aforementioned inbox pm's was discussing the augmentation errata. Apparently he was going to try to get around to it by the end of the year(last year, which obviously didn't happen), or in time for the reprint.

[Kruger]

"this is garbage" is completely and utterly useless. it's not criticism. it's just an insult. it doesn't accomplish anything, or help anyone improve. it isn't detailed, isn't an analysis or assessment of anything, and does not have any information whatsoever on what the problem is. if you're going to try and claim that someone needs to be able to take criticism, maybe you should start by actually providing criticism instead of just insulting someone else's work.

This isn't your undergraduate writing classes, where it's a safe environment for growing your skills. This is the world of retail transactions, where somebody has paid money for a product. Welcome to the real world life of people who get paid money for words. It's not always nice, because one side has an expectation for the return value of their currency.

You missed your own quoted text:

"crit·i·cism
/ˈkritəˌsizəm/
Noun

The expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes


That's it. I said nothing about it being constructive criticism, because, well, I've been in the real world and been paid money for words, lol.

[Blade]

I haven't read all books that came out after War!, but from what I've seen in those I've read I'd say that:
- Not all writers write bad things
- Some writers write mostly bad things
- Some writers write mostly good things

The problem is that there seemed to be no filtering. There didn't even seem to be any attempt at getting everything together. I don't know if it's true, but to me it felt as if JH just published everything the writers threw at him, without giving any direction nor checking what he got.

This was made even worse by the fact that it looked like there were many different visions of the world of Shadowrun among the writers. And it seemed that for many writers, it was just our world with cyber and magic. There were also some problems with Mary Sues and plot points that transpired some writer's personal obsession more than anything else.

[Jaid]

This isn't your undergraduate writing classes, where it's a safe environment for growing your skills. This is the world of retail transactions, where somebody has paid money for a product. Welcome to the real world life of people who get paid money for words. It's not always nice, because one side has an expectation for the return value of their currency.

You missed your own quoted text:

"crit·i·cism
/ˈkritəˌsizəm/
Noun

The expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes


That's it. I said nothing about it being constructive criticism, because, well, I've been in the real world and been paid money for words, lol.

i must have missed the part where being in the real world makes it acceptable to be a jackass to everyone and they should just suck it up and deal with it. oh wait, that isn't a thing... "this is the real world" is not, in fact, an acceptable reason to be offensive just because you feel like it.

and no, i didn't miss my own quoted text. "this is garbage" is not a perceived fault or mistake. it's just an insult. it doesn't say a damned thing about the material you're supposedly criticizing. it doesn't tell anyone anything useful about it. having read that, i don't have the slightest idea what the perceived faults or mistakes are.

just insulting someone else's work is useless. it doesn't help anyone, except to pad the ego of the person who decided to insult someone else from behind the cover of internet anonymity and then tried to pretend like it's the fault of the person who got insulted for being offended. it is a disgusting behaviour, and no, it isn't the duty of the author to lie down and take their beating when you decide to insult them.

you, nor anyone else, has any form of *right* to insult others. if you want to provide legitimate criticism, wherein you provide useful feedback that can actually help, fine. if you just want to insult someone because you get your jollies out of making others feel bad, then quite frankly, as far as i'm concerned *you* can suck it up and deal with it when other people point out *your* flaws, and stop taking *their* criticism so poorly.

[Kruger]

Hey Slappy, before you get too much steam built up in your Self Righteous Train, I didn't insult anyone. I don't know a single thing about SR4 products because I thought the entire SR4 transition was awful and never bought into it after purchasing the core book. So I don't even have the ability to pass judgment on any of the material anyone in this thread has written because I haven't read it.

And I'm not saying it is, or isn't, mean. Or it is or isn't wrong. It's just the way it is.

I was just saying that anyone who writes professionally is in the wrong business if they can't take criticism. They're selling a product to customers. And customers are quite often jerks. But, then again, they did pay money for the product, and they have a right to expect a certain level of quality. When you sell something, you accept that burden.

Otherwise, stick to writing fan fiction for your friends. This is business.


That, and well, you're just flat out, 100% wrong about "this is garbage" not "an expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes". In fact, that seems to fit the definition almost perfectly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[thorya]

Hey Slappy, before you get too much steam built up in your Self Righteous Train, I didn't insult anyone. I don't know a single thing about SR4 products because I thought the entire SR4 transition was awful and never bought into it after purchasing the core book. So I don't even have the ability to pass judgment on any of the material anyone in this thread has written because I haven't read it.

And I'm not saying it is, or isn't, mean. Or it is or isn't wrong. It's just the way it is.

I was just saying that anyone who writes professionally is in the wrong business if they can't take criticism. They're selling a product to customers. And customers are quite often jerks. But, then again, they did pay money for the product, and they have a right to expect a certain level of quality. When you sell something, you accept that burden.

Otherwise, stick to writing fan fiction for your friends. This is business.


That, and well, you're just flat out, 100% wrong about "this is garbage" not "an expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes". In fact, that seems to fit the definition almost perfectly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

This post is garbage.

See what I did there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)