SR5 magic Options

[Shinobi Killfist]

4 damage unsoakable is fine compared to 12 damage reduceable by body and armor to 0

It is probably 3 damage and it can get dropped to 0 on a lucky resist almost more easily than the 12 getting dropped to 0 since rolling high on 3-4 dice happens a lot more often than rolling stupid high on 16 dice. And taking 4 passes to beat someone to death with a spell when others will have a solid chance of one shotting them is not that awesome, especially when you have a decent chnace of taking drain for the glory of doing crap damage.

Seriously its 9P for the ruger, now add in ex exploive ammo and a called shot, its base damage will probably be 15P on a single net hit maybe more. Yeah they get 2 stats to dodge it, then 2 stats to soak, but a half assed build for combat will get a net hit outside of really bad rolls, and soacking 15dv has a decent chnace of meaning dead.

[j2klbs]

I've thought of a few points that have not been raised in this thread in comparing indirect vs. direct spells.

1. Cover. Direct spells presumably ignore cover. Therefore, they are much more effective when your opponent is hunkered down.

2. Full Defense. The new "interrupt action" mechanic really changes the way the game is played from earlier editions. Now a character targeted by an indirect spell (or gun) can take -10 initiative and add their Willpower to their dice pool for the rest of the combat turn. I am specifically planning on building a Willpower 7 dwarf street sam specifically for this tactic. This coupled with Edge allows someone to shrug off most damage from guns and indirect spells. Yet direct spells are unavoidable with this full defense tactic.

3. Edge. (examples assume 4 in stats). When you really need to kill someone fast, you burn edge to re-roll die pools. Since direct spells only target one stat whereas indirect targets two, the magician is at a much bigger advantage in an "edge" battle. For example, magician throwing, say, 15 dice (not too hard to get to) would have 5 hits before edge, then edge to re-roll 10 misses to net another 3.3 hits for a total of 8.3 hits. Joe Sixpack rolls his 4 Willpower and gets 1.3 hits. It's not even really worth it for him to burn an edge just to re-roll 2-3 dice. Since he gets more dice vs. indirect spells, it is more of a wash. If they want to Full Defense, the problem becomes more pronounced for the magician. Same mage burns edge and rolls 8.3 hits with an indirect spell. Target goes "full defense", he gets 12 dice, rolls 4 hits, burns edge, for another 2.6 hits (total 6.6). Magician nets 1.6 hits. Assuming force 6 spell, he does 7.6 damage which is then reduced by Bod+Armor (with AP of 6 for force of spell). Assuming 4 Bod and 12 armor, target rolls 10 dice reducing damage by 3.3 (which he could also edge if he wanted for another 2.2 hits). He takes 4.3 hits (or 3.1 with another point of edge). So, in this example, direct spells are twice as effective as indirect spells (8.3 vs. 4.3/3.1) and this example does not factor in any other modifiers like cover that would apply to indirect.

In summary, I think some of the contributors to this thread have over simplified and downplayed the effectiveness of direct spells. Direct spells will be relatively more effective when dealing with modifiers (e.g. cover), use of edge and the "full defense" interrupt. I am not advocating that direct spells trump indirect. I'm merely suggesting that there is a right time and place for each type of spell. This post was not intended to cover all scenarios (e.g. using edge for rule of 6, etc.), but instead to point out a few tactics and scenarios that have been overlooked.

Regards,
~j2klbs

[j2klbs]

Ooops. Math is wrong. If target of indirect spell burns second edge point, he would only take 2.1 (not 3.1) damage. Granted, target of direct could edge rule of six to reduce damage by 3.1 instead of 1.3 thereby reducing damage from direct attack to 5.2.

Still, when both sides burning edge, direct spells are more effective than indirect (5.2 vs. 1.3).

My examples assume 4 in all attributes. Your mileage may vary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

~j2klbs

[Mäx]

Also remember that new to SR5 is Reckless Spellcasting, which would allow you to cast a spell in a Simple Action but with more Drain. So if you wanted to do the good 'ol Double-Tap while dealing with more Drain, there's that.

Only one attack per IP no matter what kind of action it takes.

[CrystalBlue]

I don't know about most people here that are complaining about indirect damage spells being nerfed, but when you play with mages that consistently walk combat encounters by themselves without taking more then 1 point of drain, all thanks to stunbolts and stunballs, I'm glad that these spells have been balanced. And yes, I think that this is a good balance. Consistent damage every round for a mage that doesn't take up that much drain, compared to a gun that may or may not hit their target? Let's put this in very practical terms and maybe it'll make a bit more sense to people.

When you're a gun bunny, you have an insane amount of dice to throw at a problem. You'll have a heavy pistol, maybe two, and you'll be rolling a ton of dice. A DP of around 20 for a specialized, tricked out adept or street sam is still a possibility. A damage value of 15+ can still be thrown around at that point and makes the gun much deadlier then it was in 4th. But that's what a gun bunny does. They throw around little packets of death. That's their job, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Now, you take a mage. If we're trying to be as comparative as possible, let's go with a combat mage and say that they're specializing in doing damage with their magic. In that case, they may take direct combat spells for the use of convenience and utility, but if they want to get the job done with as much flare and focus as possible, they'll be loading up an indirect spell and firing it at the nearest thing that can be roasted. And, again, you'd have a mage throwing nearly 12 dice at this problem. Maybe more for edge. With an AP of -6 for a force 6 indirect, that's shredding nearly any armor the person has. So long as they're draining properly, I'd take the few points of drain to down a troll with an indirect combat spell.

So, why would I take a direct combat spell? It's already been stated. Cover, range, dodging capability of the target, being discreet (if magic is still the same, they have to be noticing me casting that spell since isn't not obvious), and consistency. I would gladly have that over more damage in some situations.

[DWC]

One big point is that it's ~4 damage that's unsoakable by just about anyone but another mage. That means the giant wired and armored troll is just as susceptible to it as Joe Security. How many pistol shots do you need to bring down the troll?

One shot. You shoot the decker, and then you brick his cyberware.

[Shinobi Killfist]

One shot. You shoot the decker, and then you brick his cyberware.

Or just one shot, called shot wiith ex-explosive ammo and while he may roll 24 dice to soak he still drops dead or close to it from your 18 or 19 DV. And that is from pistols, what happens on runs where you are going in prepared and not random street fights where you only have a concealable gun> Then its base 11DV and that troll is probably soaking 21+DV. Direct damage spells may be unresistable, though it really isn't getting 3-4 hits on 3-4 dice is far from unheard of but sure it is much more sure to get something, it just does not have the options avialable to it that guns do. You don't have called shots, specialty ammo, burst fire etc. I don't care that street sam of doom will outdo the mage, I do care that pretty much every one will be better off with a pistol than the mage wil be with direct damage spells.

[Epicedion]

Or just one shot, called shot wiith ex-explosive ammo and while he may roll 24 dice to soak he still drops dead or close to it from your 18 or 19 DV. And that is from pistols, what happens on runs where you are going in prepared and not random street fights where you only have a concealable gun> Then its base 11DV and that troll is probably soaking 21+DV. Direct damage spells may be unresistable, though it really isn't getting 3-4 hits on 3-4 dice is far from unheard of but sure it is much more sure to get something, it just does not have the options avialable to it that guns do. You don't have called shots, specialty ammo, burst fire etc. I don't care that street sam of doom will outdo the mage, I do care that pretty much every one will be better off with a pistol than the mage wil be with direct damage spells.

And the guy with Wired Reflexes 3 with Reaction of 9 and Intuition of 6 and Gymnastics of 6 behind heavy cover rolling 25 dodge dice still only has Willpower 3 to resist.

[Shinobi Killfist]

And the guy with Wired Reflexes 3 with Reaction of 9 and Intuition of 6 and Gymnastics of 6 behind heavy cover rolling 25 dodge dice still only has Willpower 3 to resist.

Given that visibility effects magic, cover probably does as well since well it always has, so while we throw out extreme exmaples like reaction 9, intuition 6 behind heavy cover the mage will be facing willpower 6, counterspelling 6 with heavy cover and miss just as often.

[Epicedion]

Given that visibility effects magic, cover probably does as well since well it always has, so while we throw out extreme exmaples like reaction 9, intuition 6 behind heavy cover the mage will be facing willpower 6, counterspelling 6 with heavy cover and miss just as often.

That's an extreme example?

Also I haven't seen any word on cover affecting direct spells yet.

[Shinobi Killfist]

That's an extreme example?

Also I haven't seen any word on cover affecting direct spells yet.

Yeah 2 capped stats behind heavy cover is pretty extreme and probably happens about as often as magical support and one maxed stat wit the same cover.

[Epicedion]

Yeah 2 capped stats behind heavy cover is pretty extreme and probably happens about as often as magical support and one maxed stat wit the same cover.

So I guess a Troll with Body + Armor of 30 would be a little too extreme, too, then?

[Shinobi Killfist]

So I guess a Troll with Body + Armor of 30 would be a little too extreme, too, then?

Well since trolls are about as rare as mages so it is kind of exrtreme on its own, without knowing the limit of the +armor gear its hard to say how viable 30+dice to defense is without it being extreme for a troll. But most trolls will have 6-10 body, an armor jacket adds 12, a helmet another 3 anything past that is probably much rarer than magical support. And even with 30 resist dice that drops the damage down by 10DV which a pistol with a called shot will exceed and still trump average spell damage.

Your examples are like boss fight characters and then direct damage spells roughly average out with pistols. Most enocunters a pistol is a much better choice even for the mage.

[Epicedion]

Well since trolls are about as rare as mages so it is kind of exrtreme on its own, without knowing the limit of the +armor gear its hard to say how viable 30+dice to defense is without it being extreme for a troll. But most trolls will have 6-10 body, an armor jacket adds 12, a helmet another 3 anything past that is probably much rarer than magical support. And even with 30 resist dice that drops the damage down by 10DV which a pistol with a called shot will exceed and still trump average spell damage.

Your examples are like boss fight characters and then direct damage spells roughly average out with pistols. Most enocunters a pistol is a much better choice even for the mage.

Shadowrun doesn't have boss fight characters.

How about this, then.

Street Samurai (PC-level) with Reaction 8, Intuition 5, Gymnastics 5, Body 5, and 15 armor. And WP 4.

Shooting him with say a Predator (DV 8 AP-1?), with Agility 6, Pistols 6 and a Smartlink (+2 dice).

On the face of things, the Samurai is about at odds to dodge the pistol shot, presuming he doesn't actually spend anything extra on dodging. That'll be a 50% damage reduction on average.

So the pistol shot will hit with probably fewer than 3 net hits. Let's say 3. That's 11 damage. 19 dice for reducing it (armor + body - AP). About 6 hits. So 5 damage from a pistol shot.

So the Street Samurai will take an average of about 2.5 damage per IP from the Predator. Standing in the open, straight dice versus dice.

On the other hand, let's say the mage is rolling 12 dice for his Manabolt (6 attribute + 6 skill) and doesn't even have any cool magic gear like a smartlink. Same rules, 12 dice versus 4 dice. That's about 4 hits to about 1 hit on average.

So the Street Samurai takes about 3 damage per IP from the Manabolt. Dice versus dice.

Then take into account that the mage never has range modifiers and spells have a concealability rating of infinity, the Manabolt is slightly better than the pistol.

[Bigity]

Slightly better.

Slight.



It should be much, much better. Otherwise, mages aren't all that 1) scary, and 2) in demand - at least for combat

[Epicedion]

Slightly better.

Slight.



It should be much, much better. Otherwise, mages aren't all that 1) scary, and 2) in demand - at least for combat

Well maybe the mage should throw a Force 6 Flamethrower at someone, then. Decent damage and now they're on fire. That's kind of scary.

EDIT:

Or they could just be invisible and setting you on fire.

Or Influencing you to shoot your teammate in the back of the head.

Or summoning a water elemental that then drowns you.

Totally not scary.

[Cochise]

Otherwise, mages aren't all that 1) scary, and 2) in demand - at least for combat

~hmm~ So "scariness" is limited to the capability of killing with a stare? And it's totally unscary that this dude might make you see / hear things that don't exist? Nor is it scary that he has means of telling you exactly how you feel or what your health condition is?

Sorry, but there's more than enough reason to be afraid of mages besides doing massive physical damage just with a stare. All in all I'd even say that people would fear getting ignited with an (indirect) fire spell more than being killed by a manabolt.

As for mages not being in demand for direct combat? In context of previos editions I would have said, that a lowered demand for direct combat prowess with low drain magic was more than called for, since mages do have other areas to shine in and still can play the magic bomb (at higher, potentially self destructing drain levels) ... Unfortuantely CGL decided that hackers as similarly shining characters in other areas needed more direct combat prowess with their main field, so "nerfing" mages in that regard somewhat contradicts the notion.

[Sendaz]

~hmm~ So "scariness" is limited to the capability of killing with a stare? And it's totally unscary that this dude might make you see / hear things that don't exist? Nor is it scary that he has means of telling you exactly how you feel or what your health condition is?

Sorry, but there's more than enough reason to be afraid of mages besides doing massive physical damage just with a stare. All in all I'd even say that people would fear getting ignited with an (indirect) fire spell more than being killed by a manabolt.

As for mages not being in demand for direct combat? In context of previos editions I would have said, that a lowered demand for direct combat prowess with low drain magic was more than called for, since mages do have other areas to shine in and still can play the magic bomb (at higher, potentially self destructing drain levels) ... Unfortuantely CGL decided that hackers as similarly shining characters in other areas needed more direct combat prowess with their main field, so "nerfing" mages in that regard somewhat contradicts the notion.

Which is why the Mages Guild will be working on that EMP Bomb spell and just fry all those hackable toys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yes lightning does some of this, but still.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Epicedion]

I would say that the damage potential for direct combat spells tends to cap out a little low even if the sustained damage output is okay. Even with 30 dice you'd be somewhat unlikely to actually kill someone with a single manabolt (and then to do that you'd need to be okay with casting at a minimum of about Force 10 to even consider trying). I'd honestly expect some mechanism for boosting these spells a bit, but maybe something that's not immediately accessible to a new character -- something from Enchantment, or perhaps fetish or focus related. Or even a perk of Initiation.

[apple]

So the Street Samurai will take an average of about 2.5 damage per IP from the Predator. Standing in the open, straight dice versus dice.

And now the same with a (silenced) assault rifle.

SYL

[Shinobi Killfist]

Shadowrun doesn't have boss fight characters.

How about this, then.

Street Samurai (PC-level) with Reaction 8, Intuition 5, Gymnastics 5, Body 5, and 15 armor. And WP 4.

Shooting him with say a Predator (DV 8 AP-1?), with Agility 6, Pistols 6 and a Smartlink (+2 dice).

On the face of things, the Samurai is about at odds to dodge the pistol shot, presuming he doesn't actually spend anything extra on dodging. That'll be a 50% damage reduction on average.

So the pistol shot will hit with probably fewer than 3 net hits. Let's say 3. That's 11 damage. 19 dice for reducing it (armor + body - AP). About 6 hits. So 5 damage from a pistol shot.

So the Street Samurai will take an average of about 2.5 damage per IP from the Predator. Standing in the open, straight dice versus dice.

On the other hand, let's say the mage is rolling 12 dice for his Manabolt (6 attribute + 6 skill) and doesn't even have any cool magic gear like a smartlink. Same rules, 12 dice versus 4 dice. That's about 4 hits to about 1 hit on average.

So the Street Samurai takes about 3 damage per IP from the Manabolt. Dice versus dice.

Then take into account that the mage never has range modifiers and spells have a concealability rating of infinity, the Manabolt is slightly better than the pistol.

Yeah a simple normal shot from a ares predator does about the same damage as a direct damage spell. Add in ammo, called shots, bursts and the versatility of guns will make them the better choice by far. not facing the 13 dice dodge street sam, oh you go for a called shot, facing the 13 dice dodge guy, you use a burst to reduce the dodge pool etc. And even relatively low force spells like a force 5 manbolt comes with the risk of drain which now can't be first aided away. And this is compared to a pistol which is far from the limit of gun options.

This isn't about mages in general, their versatility still makes them useful and deadly. And maybe these alchemical things will make a difference. But in most cases a non-ridic mage will be better off investing in automatics skill and going to town with machine pistols, assault rifles etc than casting direct damage spells, hell learn increase agility before manabolt.

[tasti man LH]

Also remember that Increase Attribute and Decrease Attribute suddenly became a lot more important, since those will affect limits.

It's one thing if the mage fries you with mana; quite another thing if they make it difficult for you to do your job.

[Epicedion]

And now the same with a (silenced) assault rifle.

SYL

Depends on how they work.

Why not compare manabolt to a tank cannon? What's the expectation for the spell, here? That it's always supposed to be the best choice for the job, no matter the job?

[apple]

No, that it should have a place in the universe. And a small DoT is not really what I would have expeceted, compared to the other damage values, both magic and non magic.

SYL

[Starmage21]

Depends on how they work.

Why not compare manabolt to a tank cannon? What's the expectation for the spell, here? That it's always supposed to be the best choice for the job, no matter the job?

Because Slippery Slope. Shadowrunners do not commonly carry tank cannons about, or even have access to them. However, shadowrunners DO quite commonly carry a shotgun or an assault rifle at minimum when expecting combat. The ONLY advantage of a pistol is concealability, otherwise one of the standard rules of gunfighting stands: "If you can choose what kind of gun to bring to a fight, bring a long gun. If possible, bring a friend with a long gun."