SR5 magic Options

[Seerow]

Because Slippery Slope. Shadowrunners do not commonly carry tank cannons about, or even have access to them. However, shadowrunners DO quite commonly carry a shotgun or an assault rifle at minimum when expecting combat. The ONLY advantage of a pistol is concealability, otherwise one of the standard rules of gunfighting stands: "If you can choose what kind of gun to bring to a fight, bring a long gun. If possible, bring a friend with a long gun."

Frankly I would consider a direct spell to be equivalent to a holdout pistol. You want to compare to a larger gun, or grenades, or other such, then you compare to elemental manipulations which are still heavy hitters.

Fact is, Direct Spells were overpowered because they were incredibly hard to resist for the vast majority of people. Toning them down by reducing base damage was a good move, and the people complaining about it remind me of toddlers crying as their favorite toy gets taken away.

[Starmage21]

Frankly I would consider a direct spell to be equivalent to a holdout pistol. You want to compare to a larger gun, or grenades, or other such, then you compare to elemental manipulations which are still heavy hitters.

Fact is, Direct Spells were overpowered because they were incredibly hard to resist for the vast majority of people. Toning them down by reducing base damage was a good move, and the people complaining about it remind me of toddlers crying as their favorite toy gets taken away.

Such derision is the mark of supreme intelligence, I'm sure.
/sarcasm

[Sendaz]

Shadowrunners do not commonly carry tank cannons about,

Bull The Ork Decker may have argued that statement once upon a time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


But yeah, I was fond of shotguns even as a mage or decker as a backup.

[Epicedion]

Because Slippery Slope. Shadowrunners do not commonly carry tank cannons about, or even have access to them. However, shadowrunners DO quite commonly carry a shotgun or an assault rifle at minimum when expecting combat. The ONLY advantage of a pistol is concealability, otherwise one of the standard rules of gunfighting stands: "If you can choose what kind of gun to bring to a fight, bring a long gun. If possible, bring a friend with a long gun."

And mages don't commonly toss fireballs either, which is why I asked the question: what role should the direct combat spell really have? Should it be a swiss army knife of damage dealing and applicable as the best solution in all situations, or should it be more specifically a sort of light and easy weapon that you use when the fireball is a little too much or too flashy?

The problem in previous editions was that the indirect spells were incredibly difficult to use, had heavy drain, and didn't do nearly as much damage as a decent direct spell. Magic didn't really comport to a power-versus-risk curve, which was why everyone just Stunbolted everything.

The way this is set up, your direct spells are pretty easy, virtually guaranteed to have some effect, and probably won't give you any drain. If you really want to boil someone's brain in their skull you tag them with an overcast lightning bolt. It's your assault rifle rather than your light pistol.

[DireRadiant]

Such derision is the mark of supreme intelligence, I'm sure.
/sarcasm

This is an example of a post that should not have been made.
It's a personal attack.
It's against the Terms of Service.
There is no other redeeming content or contribution to this discussion.

[apple]

Toning them down by reducing base damage was a good move

Direct Damage spells were not "toned down". The devs went from one side of the extreme to the other, from perceived "overpowered-ness" to "me, holdout, I´ll take the assautl rifle"

SYL

[Jizmack]

Maybe the point of this reduction in combat spell effectiveness is to make magic primarily an ability to alter reality, mind-rape people, mutate things, etc. As oppose to just an alternative method of shooting.

[Bigity]

That would be just as lame, frankly.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think one of the intents was to make it so people would use other spells equally and not just have the go to stun ball. I thnk the direct damage spells beng hold out replacements put them in the area of never pick up never use. The problem is mages aren't in a position ware its the holdout or nothing because that is all they could pack, they still have thier full spell list and needing to take 4ish shots to take someone out when you have more effective options either in spells or gear means it just wont be used. They needed to be weakened but I doubt they are balanced with the other spells.

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno, my mage was powerbolting plenty of NPCs into oblivion at Origins.

Then again. Well. Powergamer.




-k

[Sendaz]

I dunno, my mage was powerbolting plenty of NPCs into oblivion at Origins.

Then again. Well. Powergamer.

-k

Expand on this please?

Loaded up with foci or specializing in combat spells?

Also what sort of targets?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, I can see it 6 magic+6 spell casting hell maybe 7 magic +2 specialization, +2 totem, a focus maybe force 2-3 and you get 20ish dice. It is a pretty maxed out build but 7ish hits 6 damage on average is not bad, though to do that its at least force 7 or 5 drain so you will prbably eating drain.

[Starmage21]

This is an example of a post that should not have been made.
It's a personal attack.
It's against the Terms of Service.
There is no other redeeming content or contribution to this discussion.

Indeed. I apologize for responding to a troll with a troll. I should not have stooped to such a level.

Well, I can see it 6 magic+6 spell casting hell maybe 7 magic +2 specialization, +2 totem, a focus maybe force 2-3 and you get 20ish dice. It is a pretty maxed out build but 7ish hits 6 damage on average is not bad, though to do that its at least force 7 or 5 drain so you will prbably eating drain.

If Mr Gun-Fu Shadowrunner invests similarly into guns, I'd expect that he'd be quite dangerous and only be good with guns, whereas the mage has the added versatility of other known spells. Still, what concerns me is that you have a situation where the mage's combat spells are not considered worthwhile because they arent as dangerous as a medium investment in guns and a medium investment in magic, which is exactly what examples we have. Brick the Troll is an edge case, which is just as bad an example of how magic should work as the tank cannon presented earlier.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, I can see it 6 magic+6 spell casting hell maybe 7 magic +2 specialization, +2 totem, a focus maybe force 2-3 and you get 20ish dice. It is a pretty maxed out build but 7ish hits 6 damage on average is not bad, though to do that its at least force 7 or 5 drain so you will prbably eating drain.

Pretty close.

I also discovered the wonder of Reagents.

Instead of the determining the Limit on a spell by it's Force, using Reagents sets the Limit of a spell to the number of units of Reagent you spend in the casting. Reagents can be purchased at 20 nuyen per unit.

Not something you want to use on every spell, but if you have the cash keeping some on hand at all times is very handy.

Reagents can be used for other magical activities as well, with varying effects.


-k

[tasti man LH]

Hmm, so reagents now have more uses besides enchanting?

Interesting. Would certainly motivate Awakened characters to do more talislegging for themselves.

[Sendaz]

Interesting. Would certainly motivate Awakened characters to do more talislegging for themselves.

Given how the dragons are becoming more proactive, taking action themselves or hiring their own teams for reprisals against anyone dealing in talislegging trade for dragon bits this should be interesting.

Me? I am going to be looking for more mineral and botanical based items, or at least non-sapient based if it has to be animal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[DMiller]

Just a quick note to keep in mind... The term "reagent" may have been redefined, or at least reused to mean more than one thing (which does happen from time to time).

[sk8bcn]

Indeed. I apologize for responding to a troll with a troll. I should not have stooped to such a level.

Wow, you totally understood the idea of no personnal attack...

[Bull]

Wow, you totally understood the idea of no personnal attack...

Shhh. Don't respond to these things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kyrel]

That would be just as lame, frankly.

That would be a question of the eye of the beholder. To me it would be quite perfect really, because IMO the Mage shouldn't be an easily concealed heavy weapon. Rather the Mage should fulfill some other role in the squad, than simply dealing damage.

And for the record, I'm perfectly on board with stunbolts doing net hits in damage. They were ridiculously overpowered as they were, and the other Direct spells weren't much different. Maybe they've gone overboard with the nerfing, but let's see when we have the full rules. Personally though, I would have just changed the Drain values to equal the Indirect spells (or a bit higher), making both types of damage spells viable, depending on the particular effect you were looking to achieve.

[Epicedion]

If you're looking to house-rule something that hasn't come out yet, you could make a "Deadlier Spells" variant and add Force/2 to the damage dealt for direct spells.

Or better yet, add the spell's Drain value (but 0 and below = 0) to the damage dealt, so Stunbolts would have to be cast at higher Force than Manabolts to get the benefit. That way a Force 10 overcast would dump something like 7 damage + net hits (and an asston of Physical Drain) out of a manabolt.

EDIT: The second one, adding Drain to damage for direct spells, would sort of mirror SR3's method of picking the Damage Level (light, moderate, serious, deadly) with Drain being set by the damage level of the spell (and Drain TN set by the Force).

[Starmage21]

That would be a question of the eye of the beholder. To me it would be quite perfect really, because IMO the Mage shouldn't be an easily concealed heavy weapon. Rather the Mage should fulfill some other role in the squad, than simply dealing damage.

And for the record, I'm perfectly on board with stunbolts doing net hits in damage. They were ridiculously overpowered as they were, and the other Direct spells weren't much different. Maybe they've gone overboard with the nerfing, but let's see when we have the full rules. Personally though, I would have just changed the Drain values to equal the Indirect spells (or a bit higher), making both types of damage spells viable, depending on the particular effect you were looking to achieve.

As much as there is to discuss about the rules for these particular spells, regardless of any personal opinion, the best thing that can be done is to wait for the playtest result comparisons to intended results. If the developers want combat spells to be pretty much a last resort, then they will be. I'll be bringing a long gun myself.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As much as there is to discuss about the rules for these particular spells, regardless of any personal opinion, the best thing that can be done is to wait for the playtest result comparisons to intended results. If the developers want combat spells to be pretty much a last resort, then they will be. I'll be bringing a long gun myself.

My current Mage uses an Ares Viper Slivergun or Shotgun for his damage output, even in SR4A. Hard to beat.

[Bigity]

That would be a question of the eye of the beholder. To me it would be quite perfect really, because IMO the Mage shouldn't be an easily concealed heavy weapon. Rather the Mage should fulfill some other role in the squad, than simply dealing damage.

And for the record, I'm perfectly on board with stunbolts doing net hits in damage. They were ridiculously overpowered as they were, and the other Direct spells weren't much different. Maybe they've gone overboard with the nerfing, but let's see when we have the full rules. Personally though, I would have just changed the Drain values to equal the Indirect spells (or a bit higher), making both types of damage spells viable, depending on the particular effect you were looking to achieve.

SR is a classless game - or at least enough so you don't need to prevent magicians from being able to kick some butt. But as has been said, only some game time in the new rules will see if its prevented or not.

[Kyrel]

SR is a classless game - or at least enough so you don't need to prevent magicians from being able to kick some butt. But as has been said, only some game time in the new rules will see if its prevented or not.

I agree with regards to SR being a classless game, but you still tend to have "specialties" within a given group, i.e. Matrix specialist, even if everyone can have a comlink and some programs and Agents. But anyway, as said elsewhere, let's see how things stack up once we see the full rules.