SR5 Preview #5: Magic Options

[Seerow]

I stated it before, Seerow: I'm not discussing with you anymore because I don't see you as a worthwhile contributor to anything that affects me even tangentially, as proven by you totally missing the point (again).

No, your point is that you don't mind ruling things on the fly. My point is that your on the fly rulings contradict with what anyone else might expect. You can't say "Default to common sense" when common sense can get you drastically different answers.

[Moirdryd]

Okay, we're off topic here.

Wjhat else have we gleaned from the Magic Preview vs the knowledge held by those who have the book from origins? I;m still curious on the other differences brought back in to the two Traditions and also why you wouldnt play a Mystic Adept (as I;ve seen almost nothing that means you wouldn't outside of Initiation limits...whch are not all that).

[Sendaz]

No Astral Projection for the Mystic Adept, though you can buy the Astral Perception bit.

Not a major setback as perception least lets you still use Assensing and in a pinch you could find a willing Spirit who could invoke Astral Gateway I suppose.

Really wish they had provided some more spells in the previews as curious to see changes to spell descriptions if any and more on the other elemental effects like those from Street Magic.

Maybe someone with the Book could tease out a few of the spells, especially anything new or changed.

[Moirdryd]

Yeah, I spotted those ones, but that still makes a Mystic adept almost a no braner (astral projection beng all you lose really)

[Sendaz]

Pretty much.. no major drawback except where to keep all that mojo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Moirdryd]

Well hot damn! I can see that getting lmited at my table from the outset.

[Bull]

Just as a note, the bit with Mystic Adept power point costs at Chargen may be a typo and is getting looked at. But otherwise, yes, they use their full magic rating for stuff.

[Grinder]

It's not lazy game design, it's practical game design. Because we can't list every single exception. We give you an outline as to what does and doesn't count, and say "use your common sense".

I'm not sure if I like that approach at all - it's a safe way to FAQs and erratas (and we all know how well that works).

[Bull]

I'm not sure if I like that approach at all - it's a safe way to FAQs and erratas (and we all know how well that works).

Maybe. But as I said, there are a million exceptions.

Does casting an Illusion Spell count? What if it's purely defensive (Covering a hole in a wall that you're hiding behind?) WHat if it's offensive (Making the target thing he's about to be attacked by a troll with an axe, or covering a hole in the floor he's about to step in?)

HE grenades are offensive, but smoke grenades are defensive. And what if the enemy just happens to be allergic to that particular chemical your smoke uses, and it could kill him?

Using ice sheet to knock down my enemies vs using Ice Sheet to provide a slick surface for me to easily slide down to escape combat.

We wanted there to be versatility. one of the points of removing the "double tap" for guns was to loosen up combat a little and make it less about "i fire, now you fire, now I fire" and make it more strategic. Because now you can fire, but you can also do something ELSE. Being creative, maneuvering, taking defensive actions. We want players to be able to do that. And a blanket "Only one spell" or classifying all grenades as "Offensive" stifles that ability greatly.

Say what you want, but for every thing I can think of as "purely defensive" I'm sure someone could find an offensive action to use it with. And vice-versa for everything offensive, there are only a couple actions I can think of that I can't imagine some kind of rare, one in a million defensive opportunity to use it for.

Sometimes, you have to rely on players good sense and the GMs ability to make rulings. That's just the way it goes.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So its official then, mystic adepts=no brainer.

[Redjack]

Because now you can fire, but you can also do something ELSE. Being creative, maneuvering, taking defensive actions. We want players to be able to do that. And a blanket "Only one spell" or classifying all grenades as "Offensive" stifles that ability greatly.

Not to poke the Bull with a stick, but I could always (and many times did) do other things before... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Well it all depends on your character concept and what you want to do.

The gunslinger adept will be no slouch mixing adept magics with gun bunny goodness.

Depending on how much they expand on the metaplanes you might want a full mage to go tripping the astral.

But yeah, for an all around good base to start off from with great growth potential mystic adepts do seem the new shiny.

[Moirdryd]

It looks that way Shinobi. But of course there are limits that have been mentioned and in a long game they'll probabley rack up. A mystic Adept will be wanting those Metamagics for example but to do so will be not improving adept abilities, also any magic loss is massively bad for the Mysad, I'm also guessing the karma cost for Powerpoints at chargen will bite due to lacking qualities. However, Bull has said some of that's being looked at for Errata anyway. (I'm likely to rule away Mysads from my game when I start a sr5 campaign or reduce their starting stuff).

[Bull]

Not to poke the Bull with a stick, but I could always (and many times did) do other things before... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, yes. But now you're kinda forced to do so. It also brings the power of guns down a little bit. They're a bit less of the "no brainer" option.

However, Bull has said some of that's being looked at for Errata anyway. (I'm likely to rule away Mysads from my game when I start a sr5 campaign or reduce their starting stuff).

Yeah. 2 Karma per point at Chargen is extremely cheap, and I'm fairly certain it was supposed to be more expensive by a fair bit at one point during playtest. I'm guessing a typo slipped in to the basic rules, and since it was just a single number, no one caught it, and whoever did the examples and made the archetypes assumed it was the correct number and used it.

So it's being looked at to see if 2 points is too broken to leave as is, and to see what we should revert it to if that's the case. I know I know where I'd like to see it go, but that's not my call to make nor is it my place to say or speculate at this time.

Bull

[Shinobi Killfist]

It looks that way Shinobi. But of course there are limits that have been mentioned and in a long game they'll probabley rack up. A mystic Adept will be wanting those Metamagics for example but to do so will be not improving adept abilities, also any magic loss is massively bad for the Mysad, I'm also guessing the karma cost for Powerpoints at chargen will bite due to lacking qualities. However, Bull has said some of that's being looked at for Errata anyway. (I'm likely to rule away Mysads from my game when I start a sr5 campaign or reduce their starting stuff).

I want my limit to be I have too much shit to spend my resources on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But yeah unless there is a BIG limit that we don't know about they are banned from my games.

[Shinobi Killfist]

So it's being looked at to see if 2 points is too broken to leave as is, and to see what we should revert it to if that's the case. I know I know where I'd like to see it go, but that's not my call to make nor is it my place to say or speculate at this time.

Bull

Even at 5 points per PP its broken, hell at 10 per PP its probably still broken. Full magic and full adept in one package wont be made up for by 50 karma.

[Epicedion]

Even at 5 points per PP its broken, hell at 10 per PP its probably still broken. Full magic and full adept in one package wont be made up for by 50 karma.

Yeah, this is a little nuts.

[Seerow]

Even at 5 points per PP its broken, hell at 10 per PP its probably still broken. Full magic and full adept in one package wont be made up for by 50 karma.

Yeah, I was kind of expecting some big limit to be in the magic section. Something like mystic adepts give up PP to learn spells, or have a much stricter restriction on spells known/spirits summoned, or something along those lines. Something where they give up some of the raw versatility of the full mage in exchange for getting the extra flexibility from adept powers.

I guess a higher karma cost can balance it, because that's karma that could be going into extra spells, more initiations/magic, or whatever else, but yeah at 2 karma it's definitely a no-brainer.

[Bull]

Even at 5 points per PP its broken, hell at 10 per PP its probably still broken. Full magic and full adept in one package wont be made up for by 50 karma.

Well, I don;t disagree, but I was overridden. Apparently too many folks thought they were too crippled under SR4, even though I personally thought that was the first time they weren't utterly broken. But not my call.

Honestly though, even at 2 PP each they're not entirely horrible, UNLESS you're building a massively synergistic Adept/Spellcasting build. Just to play around I built a Mystic Adept that was an old school Phsyical Mage... PhysAd powers boosting him physically, plus decent spellcasting, and the points just were spread too thin and he was mediocre at best across the board. Not terrible, but not great.

But you go with a Mystic Adept Shaman Face, and you can really get abusive.

[Epicedion]

Well it's sort of like letting magicians take nearly free cyberware or permanently sustained spells. Even if you never ever ever improve your mystic adept abilities, you're still at a sizable advantage from it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I actually liked them in 4e. If you focused on magic like 5/1 magic/adept you were a rock solid mage with a trick or 2. If you went the oposite you were a solid adept with the potnetial of a weak spirits and spells for utility. Now you are just better than a mage, and just better than a adept. Yeah resources are tight, but its bad ass. I kind of look at it this way. If I was playing a mage and you gave me the option to dump 50 karma in after the game start and get 6 PPs to play with I'd do it in a heartbeat. Helll just go 6 in combat sense and 6 in mystic armor and its a bad ass add to your character, you don't need to work that into your character build very hard.

[Epicedion]

This would be a fair alternative:

Assign the Mystic Adept two separate Magic stats -- one for magical skills/spells, and one for adept powers.

Done.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If it were 2 seperate magic stats it would be slower advancement at least. Not as slow as 4e, but not as fast a normal mage or adept in 5e. Maybe start them at 3/3, it could be boosted with special stats, karma etc. Probbaly not to the full 6/6. And post char gen they would slow down. Since i knew it wasn't that way what I hoped for is more like Seerow pointed out.

[RHat]

Even at 5 points per PP its broken, hell at 10 per PP its probably still broken. Full magic and full adept in one package wont be made up for by 50 karma.

Every point of Karma is a point not spent on foci, spells, qualities, skills, attributes... If that cost is high enough, for example, that for standard chargen you have to dip well into your Negative Quality allocation to get all 6 points, that's more balanced than you think. A martial artist combat mystad cannot then be a full martial arts adept and a full combat mage, because either of those other two will have qualities, skills, attributes, and more giving them help in their area that the mystad does not have. It might have been better to give them fewer starting spells than full mages, as well, but that cannot be known without testing and I suspect that they tested that (it seems a little obvious to me, after all).

[Glyph]

From the preview:

You must declare the Force at which to cast the spell.
The Force acts as a limit on the spell. Higher Force
spells are more powerful, but cause more Drain. You
can cast a spell at a Force up to twice your Magic rating.
If the number of hits (not net hits) you get after applying
the limit exceeds your Magic rating, the spell’s Drain is
Physical instead of Stun damage.

Now, does this only apply to overcasting? I'm asking because if uncapping your hits will turn the Drain to physical damage (keeping in mind that Drain is higher is SR5 and can't be healed with first aid or magic), then using Edge suddenly becomes a lot riskier for mages.