How is SR5 supposed to be more deadly? Options

[Major Doom]

Reading preview #4's combat chapter and focusing on just your typical fisticuffs or busting a clip into someone's ass scenarios, with the Inherent Limit or Accuracy limiting the number of hits you can achieve, in addition, every two Stun boxes counting as only one Physical box when the Stun track is full, I noticed that new SR5 will be less lethal than 4E. Personally I was hoping it would be a bit more like Call of Cthulhu, where combat is really deadly. Or will there be a separate section in the new core book that will cover adding extra lethality to the game?

[Stahlseele]

higher damage, no more Armor Stacking.

[Draco18s]

Couple things:
Accuracy is not going to clip that many hits off a roll. Typical rolls (using an appropriate gun) will average right around the hit cap. So this is effectively a null-change with regards to DV (provided your sniper isn't using a sawed off buckshot hillbilly cannon, of course).
Less-lethal guns becoming....less lethal? Le gasp. You're trying to complain that you can't kill people as easily with stick and shock, gel rounds, and flash bangs. Seriously.


Those two things aside:
Either the deadliness is staying the same or there are other changes that will make it go up. Like...

Armor stacking. Can't do it in 5E. No more trolltanks.

[phlapjack77]

Armor stacking. Can't do it in 5E. No more trolltanks.

I've heard this a few times. But armor doesn't stack in SR4 either, right? I mean, there were splatbooks that came out with extra gear that had weird interactions, but the basic SR4(A) book didn't have armor stacking either.

[Sendaz]

No no..


they meant the SR5 book is gonna be deadlier.

At 480+ pages that hardback is gonna be lethal if someone swings it at you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Abschalten]

No no..


they meant the SR5 book is gonna be deadlier.

At 480+ pages that hardback is gonna be lethal if someone swings it at you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Ahahahahaha! Haha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Sorry, I had to come out of lurking just to show my approval of this comment. It amused the hell out of me.

[cryptoknight]

I will say lugging it onto an airplane so I could read it while I flew out to an assignment this week, as I ran through airport temrinals and up and down escalators and stair cases, in addition to dragging a suitcase and a bag with a 17" laptop in it made me think I might have a heart attack after a while... does that make it more lethal?

[Medicineman]

@Major Doom
get a grenade or two (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with an explosive Dance
Medicineman

[CanRay]

Accuracy is not going to clip that many hits off a roll.

I've heard that the term is now "Magazine".

[Stahlseele]

I've heard that the term is now "Magazine".

5 bucks into the bad pun jar please! *groans*

[Epicedion]

Reading preview #4's combat chapter and focusing on just your typical fisticuffs or busting a clip into someone's ass scenarios, with the Inherent Limit or Accuracy limiting the number of hits you can achieve, in addition, every two Stun boxes counting as only one Physical box when the Stun track is full, I noticed that new SR5 will be less lethal than 4E. Personally I was hoping it would be a bit more like Call of Cthulhu, where combat is really deadly. Or will there be a separate section in the new core book that will cover adding extra lethality to the game?

I think the idea is that an average heavy pistol shot or a double tap from a light pistol is going to be incapacitating or fatal to an unarmored target.

Since "armor 12" appears to be the new "armor 6" you can expect most people to clip 4-5 damage off any attack, meaning it's going to take about 2-3 heavy pistol shots to take someone down. Or (probably) one Short Burst from an assault rifle. This seems about right for Shadowrun.

[X-Kalibur]

I think the idea is that an average heavy pistol shot or a double tap from a light pistol is going to be incapacitating or fatal to an unarmored target.

Since "armor 12" appears to be the new "armor 6" you can expect most people to clip 4-5 damage off any attack, meaning it's going to take about 2-3 heavy pistol shots to take someone down. Or (probably) one Short Burst from an assault rifle. This seems about right for Shadowrun.

Especially given that an armor vest today can stop what we'd consider a heavy pistol round pretty easily, but it's gonna sting like a bitch. (Which I'm assuming will still translate to stun damage?)

[Umidori]

Yeah, modern body armor bruises something fierce. Stopping that much force is going to hurt one way or another. But better a bruised ribcage than a punctured lung and drowning in your own blood.

~Umi

[Draco18s]

Yeah, modern body armor bruises something fierce. Stopping that much force is going to hurt one way or another. But better a bruised ribcage than a punctured lung and drowning in your own blood.

As they say, better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[Sendaz]

Ahahahahaha! Haha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Sorry, I had to come out of lurking just to show my approval of this comment. It amused the hell out of me.

We try (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Shadowrun 5th Edition Origins Special Print

[Exotic Weapon Skill: Tome, Acc 1, DV 2P (if used edgewise, 1S if striking with the flat side), AP 0]
Can be used as a Shield [Armor +1]


Weapon: Shadowrun 5th Edition Hardcover

[Exotic Weapon Skill: Tome, Acc 2, DV 3P (if used edgewise, 3S if striking with the flat side), AP -1 (Edgewise only, AP 0 if using flat side)]
Can be used as a Shield [Armor +3]
Wireless Bonus: +1 Acc (if you had the appropriate connections which are still 60years off (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

[Werewindlefr]

Now, an assault rifle will reliably kill an unarmored person if you shoot that person in the foot.

[CanRay]

Now, an assault rifle will reliably kill an unarmored person if you shoot that person in the foot.

Wound Shock is a B****.

[Werewindlefr]

Wound Shock is a B****.

I didn't say it was a bad/unrealistic thing, although I do think it is a tad too strong.
That said, works for me: bullets in the foot strike me as a rare border case anyway. (Besides, I was going to houserule a moderate increase in condition monitors anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ).

[Sendaz]

Now, an assault rifle will reliably kill an unarmored person if you shoot that person in the foot.

But that is a problem you will find in many game systems, not just SR.

Unless you want to implement a hit location/damage system like BTRC used, but then you can get bogged down in tracking it all, but it can make for more realistic effects.

You may just want a simple house rule for weird shots like that if over half the max health is lost at one time on a limb shot then you lost that limb and half that damage (so say you normally have 11 boxes, you took 7 damage after armor/resists specifically to your foot for some reason, that foot got blown to heck and is gone and you actually lost 4 health (3 points going to blowing the meat to mist) so your down to 7 health (11-4) and minus one foot and probably suffering ongoing bleeding. Consult your local street doc for a replacement and look out for the sick **** who goes around shooting people in the foot.

Normal uncalled shots are just handled normally.

End of the day you want to be able to play and enjoy it in whatever way best suits you.

[Werewindlefr]

But that is a problem you will find in many game systems, not just SR.

Again, didn't say it was a problem. I'm answering the question that's in the topic's title: is SR5 more lethal? And the answer is yes, because an average wageslave with body 3 and nor armor has a ~3% chance of surviving an Ares Alpha round that hits with 1 success (and 25% chance of surviving being shot with an AK-97), which is a lot more lethal than SR4.

That said, I *do* think it's slightly more lethal than I would like (my knowledge of gun is very poor compared to most people on this forum, but I had the idea that gunshot wounds, even from assault rifles, were often-ish survivable if they didn't hit vital organs), so I made the Condition Monitors have 9+Body (9+Willpower) boxes respectively (which also solve the body dump stat problem, and still makes Ares Alpha wounds lethal ~30% of the time in the same circumstances).

[Sendaz]

Again, didn't say it was a problem. I'm answering the question that's in the topic's title: is SR5 more lethal? And the answer is yes, because an average wageslave with body 3 and nor armor has a ~3% chance of surviving an Ares Alpha round that hits with 1 success (and 10% chance of surviving being shot with an AK-97), which is a lot more lethal than SR4.

That said, I *do* think it's slightly more lethal than I would like (my knowledge of gun is very poor compared to most people on this forum, but I had the idea that gunshot wounds, even from assault rifles, were often-ish survivable if they didn't hit vital organs), so I made the Condition Monitors have 9+Body (9+Willpower) boxes respectively (which also solve the body dump stat problem, and still makes Ares Alpha wounds lethal ~30% of the time in the same circumstances).

Ah, it was the specific reference to being shot in the foot that threw me. Yeah the increased damage definitely means unhappy times for the wageslaves being used for target practice.

What? How did you THINK that Sammy got his 5 in Automatics plus specializing?

Hint: You do NOT want to fail your quarterly performance evaluations at Ares (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Medicineman]

Now, an assault rifle will reliably kill an unarmored person if you shoot that person in the foot.

HOW can You shoot someone in the Foot by RAW ??
I doubt that there is a Hit Location in SR5

with a doubtful Dance
Medicineman

[RHat]

HOW can You shoot someone in the Foot by RAW ??
I doubt that there is a Hit Location in SR5

with a doubtful Dance
Medicineman

Called Shot for Special Effect?

[Medicineman]

Called Shot for Special Effect?

OK
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But the special effect can't be :

kill an unarmored person

He who dances Barefoot
Medicineman

[Garvel]

Yeah the increased damage definitely means unhappy times for the wageslaves being used for target practice.

At least they got 6 dice for passive doging now. (If they the Reation + Intution for dodging ranged combat from the quickstartrules is correct, that is)

If an avarage guy with a weapon skill of 1 and smartgun pistol/rifle trys to shoot an other average guy that has absolutly no combat training, from 4 meters distance with no other modifiers applying, he will have an hard time hitting him. Its 4 dice vs 6 dice and the shooter with 4 dice needs a net hit. Thats a 21% chance of hittig the target. If the shooter had a weapon skill of 3 he had 38% chance of hitting the target. Still very low for a trained shooter that trys to hit an completely untrained average guy with a smartgun rifle from 4 meters away. And that is for passiv dodging!
There is a reason why you dodge raged combat only with one attribute in SR 4. In SR 5 everybody is Neo.
----> less lethal