Exceptional Attribute for Fatum Options

[Bull]

To answer your question from the Errata thread (and to keep it clear so Patrick doesn't freak out anymore):

The Exceptional Attribute quality is how you get to be the charismatic troll, or the agile dwarf. It allows you to possess one attribute at a level one point above the metatype maximum limit. For example, an ork character with the Exceptional Attribute quality for Strength could take his Strength attribute up to 10 before augmentations are applied, instead of the normal limit of 9. Exceptional Attribute also applies toward Special Attributes such as Magic and Resonance. Edge cannot affected by the Exceptional Attribute (Edge is raised by another quality called Lucky). A character may only take Exceptional Attribute once, and only with the gamemaster’s approval.

There ya go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Is there an order of operation for building your character. Basically do qualities come after you spend your attributes from the priority system needing karma to boost them, or can you save a point from earlier in character creation from the allotment you gained with the priority system points.

[Epicedion]

Is there an order of operation for building your character. Basically do qualities come after you spend your attributes from the priority system needing karma to boost them, or can you save a point from earlier in character creation from the allotment you gained with the priority system points.

One of the examples in the character generation preview says something like "Billy Joe Bob plans to take Exceptional Attribute and has permission from the GM so puts X points into Attribute and starts it 1 higher than the normal max."

[Fatum]

To answer your question from the Errata thread (and to keep it clear so Patrick doesn't freak out anymore):
There ya go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Note that there's not a word indicating that it can raise Magic and Resonance above the usual limit of 6+init grade, since it's not a metatype maximum.

[DireRadiant]

What does this sentence mean? "Exceptional Attribute also applies toward Special Attributes such as Magic and Resonance." Especially after this one? "It allows you to possess one attribute at a level one point above the metatype maximum limit. "

[Fatum]

Minding that Magic and Resonance have no metatype maximums...

[Bull]

*facepalm*

Really? We're at that point now?

[Falconer]

I think it's more people don't get allowing this for Magic/resonance as they have no limit based on metatype.

Their limit is open-ended and only based on initiate grade and essence... so allowing exceptional attribute as well is a bit abusive. Especially for say a mystic adept who can come out the gate with effectively Magic 14 in earlier edition terms... (7mag, 7pp. and no initiations even yet).

There's a bit of ignorance here as well... karma to spend in chargen does that mean possibly 1 or 2 initiations right out the gate... in which case you're now looking at people potentially coming out of chargen with a magic score of 8 or 9! Really the higher you can push those attributes in chargen the more karma you can save later!

[Shinobi Killfist]

Depending on the cost I am not sure I am that impressed with exceptional attribute for magic etc. Since a mage/adept/technomancer can improve those on his/her own you lose a lot of the oomph of it being exceptional. It might save some karma after char gen, but whether its enough to give up on other char gen bargains is hard to say.

[Redjack]

*facepalm*

Really? We're at that point now?

Gotta back Bull here. I am the first guy to pick at rules with vague wording, but this one is really pretty clear to me.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, but it's probably an easy fix to clarify.

Just note it down for the second printing. There's no point in arguing about it.


-k

[Fatum]

Gotta back Bull here. I am the first guy to pick at rules with vague wording, but this one is really pretty clear to me.

Okay, let me try to walk you through my reasoning one more time. There exist two types of limits on the attribute maximum values: metatype limits for the "ordinary" ones, and a special limit on special attributes like Magic and Resonance, 6+init grade.
The quality states that it allows the attributes to be increased past metatype maximum, thus removing one type of limits from the equation. It says exactly nothing about removing the other type, and while you could argue that it's obvious from the rule's intent, I feel that this ruling is not as clear as it might be.
It is not really an error, but it's a wording rather removed from clarity.

[Irion]

I think it's more people don't get allowing this for Magic/resonance as they have no limit based on metatype.

Their limit is open-ended and only based on initiate grade and essence... so allowing exceptional attribute as well is a bit abusive. Especially for say a mystic adept who can come out the gate with effectively Magic 14 in earlier edition terms... (7mag, 7pp. and no initiations even yet).

There's a bit of ignorance here as well... karma to spend in chargen does that mean possibly 1 or 2 initiations right out the gate... in which case you're now looking at people potentially coming out of chargen with a magic score of 8 or 9! Really the higher you can push those attributes in chargen the more karma you can save later!

What in the name of the lord are you talking about? Who in his right might would take exceptional attribute, when he could just use initiation. It makes no sense.

[RHat]

... Why are we assuming Initiation is a valid chargen option?

[Critias]

What in the name of the lord are you talking about? Who in his right might would take exceptional attribute, when he could just use initiation. It makes no sense.

Folks who are obsessed with having their starting character be as specialized and badass as the rules allow, instead of worrying about long-term growth and character development. Which is...uhh...by all accounts, a not-insubstantial portion of the player base, I'd say.

The rules don't say it's a great idea for a Techno or a Mage to go for that Resonance or Magic of 7 right outta the gate, but they explicitly allow it now, so folks who are that worried about it can do so, and start with a leg up on whoever they figure the competition is.

[Irion]

@Critias
So like I pay for stuff I would get for free later to start with a guy who has one more die in magic tests but can't even wipe his own butt....
Oh, yeah that again....I have to admit I never got that...

@RHat
I am not.

[RHat]

@RHat
I am not.

Than it should be obvious that the purpose is to start with 7 Magic/Resonance, which does more than simply offer an additional die.

[Irion]

Right, I forgot about the pay only one point at chargen for darn expensive attributes afterwards...

[pbangarth]

I rarely stick my toe in waters such as these. And I may rue doing so now. But ....

For Exceptional Attribute, the rules for which refer to metatype limits, isn't it good enough to note that the metatype limit for Magic and Resonance starts the same for all metatypes.

And then go have a beer?

[RHat]

Right, I forgot about the pay only one point at chargen for darn expensive attributes afterwards...

The access to Force 7/14 casting and summoning is no small thing, either, nor the extra power point and higher power rank limits. Then there's the probable effect on Alchemy...

[Elfenlied]

Right, I forgot about the pay only one point at chargen for darn expensive attributes afterwards...

So they haven't gotten rid of asymmetrical character creation/advancement rules? After all the Charlie Foxtrott that was BP vs Karma?

[Critias]

So they haven't gotten rid of asymmetrical character creation/advancement rules? After all the Charlie Foxtrott that was BP vs Karma?

A goodly chunk of the chargen chapter has been available for a couple weeks now, and there've been several in-depth conversations about it. I'll let you find those threads, but in the meantime here's the link to the preview in question in case you'd like to take a look.

[Stahlseele]

So they haven't gotten rid of asymmetrical character creation/advancement rules? After all the Charlie Foxtrott that was BP vs Karma?

looks like it, no.

my take on this:
ok, so you pay for exceptional attribute in char gen and start with magic 7 or just softmax it to 6 instead of 5.
then you play and get the needed karma for your first initiation.

or you don't get exceptional attribute in char gen and start with magic 6 or just softmax it to 5.
then you play and get the needed karma for your first initiation.
which is the exact same ammount. because if i remember correctly, the initiation cost is based on the initiation rank, not on the magic attribute.
so you have one point less magic and the same initiation.
raising the magic attribute from the 7 to 8 will be, of course, more expensive than from 6 to 7, but the initiation itself stays the same.

and technically, that it's more expensive to go from 7 to 8 than to go from 6 to 7 won't even matter, because you don't need to pay for the rise from 6 to 7 with karma anymore.

[Sengir]

Right, I forgot about the pay only one point at chargen for darn expensive attributes afterwards...

Magic/Resonance are not bought with regular "Attribute Points", their starting value is decided by priority and then you can dump some Karma into them. So MAG 7 requires priority A in Magic, then X Karma for Exceptional Attribute, and then 35 Karma (assuming they stick with the old costs) for the actual raise. Ouch.


But now I also have something to nag about: Why is Lucky still around? It used to be that Exceptional Attribute covered the regular ones, special stuff required special measures. Now EA covers two of the three special attributes, just Edge still requires its own quality.

PS: Also, no initiations on chargen: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...09175#msg209175

[Shemhazai]

Magic/Resonance are not bought with regular "Attribute Points", their starting value is decided by priority and then you can dump some Karma into them. So MAG 7 requires priority A in Magic, then X Karma for Exceptional Attribute, and then 35 Karma (assuming they stick with the old costs) for the actual raise. Ouch.


But now I also have something to nag about: Why is Lucky still around? It used to be that Exceptional Attribute covered the regular ones, special stuff required special measures. Now EA covers two of the three special attributes, just Edge still requires its own quality.

PS: Also, no initiations on chargen: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...09175#msg209175

You can use a point from your metatype priority to get the extra magic point.

I thought about the Lucky quality being together with Exceptional Attribute. Maybe they just liked the name. In Preview 3, it looks like Exceptional Attribute costs 14 Karma.

So for 14 Karma plus possibly one point of edge (if you don't have enough points to max it) You can start off with 7 Magic. Assuming you're going to Initiate anyway, then that's a Karma savings of 21 minus the cost to get your Edge back to where it would be, assuming Magic will cost 5 x new rating to increase to 5. But those savings come from the special Karma that you can use to get other qualities.

Having a higher limit on the number of successes on spells, assuming you have the dice pool to actually get those successes, is just a fast track to heavy drain now. I would rather be better at soaking drain. Or Lucky with a maxed out Edge. Now that Augmented Max is completely different in this version (Current Attribute + 4), getting Exceptional Attribute seems barely worth it. Can anybody give a good use for it? I know that Mystic Adepts might be able to use it, assuming they take a negative quality to be able to pay for all the Power Points (14 for Exceptional Attribute + 14 for 7 Power Points = 28, and the cost of Power Points at chargen is almost surely going to increase).