How to protect your devices from Hackers in 5th Edition, Or how I learned to worrying and love the GOD. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just remove wireless from your devices and laugh as the Hacker once again only has the Tacnet and communications to play with, which is powerful in and of itself. That will likely be the end result of the Hacking Ware effect, anyways, and completely removes the forced nature of the change in 5th Edition. Your character builds will be different, but likely still effective, and it bypasses the idiocy of having your Initiative Boosts/Logic Enhancers being Wireless for no good reason.

[Aaron]

That doesn't really do much when they don't need a mark to dataspike you.

It's tough to one-shot a device without a mark or three, so there's that.

[DireRadiant]

That doesn't really do much when they don't need a mark to dataspike you.

That's only one technique you've used to overcome my Defense Option 6 of 20.

For every defense there is an offense and vice versa, more options means you get more fun.

The fact you know an offensive counter to a defense doesn't make the defense invalid. No more then my argument makes your counter argument invalid. Without two sides and options you don't even have a game.

[Mäx]

Interestingly enough, in the real world of security engineering (See also the definitive book on the subject, Ross Anderson's Security Engineering: A Guide to Building Dependable Distributed Systems), the question is never if your system will be vulnerable/insecure, but the degree by which risk will exceed benefit. This is perhaps best illustrated by the following maxim: Secure Systems are unusable. Usable Systems are insecure.

Therefore, everything you personally use is, by definition, insecure.

Sorry but no, if i pull out the Ethernet cable out from the back of my computer it becomes 100% unhackable from afar and it still works just as well as it did before except i cant surf the net with it.

[Serbitar]

Read the SGP in my sig. Old but still true.

[Serbitar]

Sorry but no, if i pull out the Ethernet cable out from the back of my computer it becomes 100% unhackable from afar and it still works just as well as it did before except i cant surf the net with it.

Which equals unusable today.

[Mäx]

Which equals unusable today.

Not really no.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not really no.

Agreeed... Just becasue my computer is not connected to the Internet, it is not rendered useless. In fact I can do everything (except browse the Internet, which is not a necessity) on my computer without EVER having to connect to the internet at all, if I like.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Sorry but no, if i pull out the Ethernet cable out from the back of my computer it becomes 100% unhackable from afar and it still works just as well as it did before except i cant surf the net with it.

Incorrect. By disconnecting your ethernet capable, you have just inflicted a denial of service attack on yourself -- You've lost all networked capabilities. You've lost network shared resources, distributed computing, as well as a number of local programs that require online authentication prior to launching.

Critical Failure: You failed to secure the availability of your system.

Infact, you probably just executed that denial of service attack on yourself BETTER than a hacker could.

How does that make you feel? Sheepish?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Incorrect. By disconnecting your ethernet capable, you have just inflicted a denial of service attack on yourself -- You've lost all networked capabilities. You've lost network shared resources, distributed computing, as well as a number of local programs that require online authentication prior to launching.

Critical Failure: You failed to secure the availability of your system.

Infact, you probably just executed that denial of service attack on yourself BETTER than a hacker could.

How does that make you feel? Sheepish?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

That only works if you actually need the Internet to function. I have absolutely no program that NEEDS Internet connections (save Internet Explorer) to make my machine function. My system is completely available to perform the functions I consistently perform. Internet is a Choice, not a Requirement, and my machine works perfectly well without it. So well, in fact that I am no fear of Hacker/Malware attacks whatsoever. *shrug*

[Draco18s]

That only works if you actually need the Internet to function. I have absolutely no program that NEEDS Internet connections (save Internet Explorer) to make my machine function. My system is completely available to perform the functions I consistently perform. Internet is a Choice, not a Requirement, and my machine works perfectly well without it. So well, in fact that I am no fear of Hacker/Malware attacks whatsoever. *shrug*

*cough*
If that's the direction real world software is taking today...

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

That only works if you actually need the Internet to function. I have absolutely no program that NEEDS Internet connections (save Internet Explorer) to make my machine function. My system is completely available to perform the functions I consistently perform. Internet is a Choice, not a Requirement, and my machine works perfectly well without it. So well, in fact that I am no fear of Hacker/Malware attacks whatsoever. *shrug*

Based on your dumpshock activity, I would suggest that perhaps you may need to rethink your dependency on network access as part of the routine operation of your system. ;b

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Based on your dumpshock activity, I would suggest that perhaps you may need to rethink your dependency on network access as part of the routine operation of your system. ;b

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Again, Dumpshock is not a Necessity, it is a choice (and about the only online activity that I persue consistently). I have gone many months (in the past) without attaching to the Internet, and I have no programs that require it to function. And in fact have multiple PC"s at home that DO NOT RESIDE ON THE NETWORK at all. Therefore, how can you ever touch those PC's remotely? Those PC's are not denied service in any way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kruger]

*cough*
If that's the direction real world software is taking today...

Photoshop really isn't a very good example of a program people would be supremely worried about security on. Cloud based applications are awesome. For some things.

This is really the problem. Some people have a disconnect between the ideas of what can be done, and what would or should. Unfortunately, that group of disconnected people appear to have included all the decision makers at Catalyst too.

Based on your dumpshock activity, I would suggest that perhaps you may need to rethink your dependency on network access as part of the routine operation of your system. ;b

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I joke about people who can't imagine life without the Internet as being the ones who won't survive catastrophes, lol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I was traveling all weekend up in the country for a wedding in a hick town, and most of the time I was offline. And yet I still managed to complete all of the stuff I was working on.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p312/ke...n-Fellows-2.gif
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Daedelus]

Agreeed... Just becasue my computer is not connected to the Internet, it is not rendered useless. In fact I can do everything (except browse the Internet, which is not a necessity) on my computer without EVER having to connect to the internet at all, if I like.

You just described the whole matrix bonus concept. Without matrix you can do most of what you want, with matrix you can do a bit more. You have commented on the "stupidity" of certain concepts that I find elegant and ingenious. The hacker run you predict will not come to pass due to simple economy of actions. It will take a minimum of three passes to shut down that cyberarm. As far as bricking it...we cannot estimate that yet because we have not seen the rules. It can get really frustrating listening to those of you that equate opinion to fact.

[Draco18s]

Photoshop really isn't a very good example of a program people would be supremely worried about security on. Cloud based applications are awesome. For some things.

I was simply pointing out an application that cannot be run without an internet connection.

And the fact that it's cloudbased is why my company will never upgrade past CS6.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You just described the whole matrix bonus concept. Without matrix you can do most of what you want, with matrix you can do a bit more. You have commented on the "stupidity" of certain concepts that I find elegant and ingenious. The hacker run you predict will not come to pass due to simple economy of actions. It will take a minimum of three passes to shut down that cyberarm. As far as bricking it...we cannot estimate that yet because we have not seen the rules. It can get really frustrating listening to those of you that equate opinion to fact.

Online does not add any functionality to my day to day life, though. It only adds enjoyment. There is a BiG Difference here. I can do ALL of what I NEED without ever touching the Internet. The problem is that they moved Basic Functionality from Need to Want, with no thought to the rationale for it.

Apparently Cyberlimbs cannot be hacked (can't remember who pointed that out). They have no online bonuses. And that is where the stupidity exists. If Limbs have no need for bonuses, why do Reaction Enhancers? They added this so that Hackers have something to do. The brutal fact, however, is that Hackers had More than Enough to do in SR4. They "Fixed" the wrong thing. And that is the complaint.

[Kruger]

You just described the whole matrix bonus concept. Without matrix you can do most of what you want, with matrix you can do a bit more.

It's this kind of "incomplete" thinking that got a game mechanic like that written in the first place.

What if his only need for his computer was to type up a report and print it? At no point does he require wireless connectivity to do that. What if he's just playing the campaign of Rome: Total War? Or if he's watching Norwegian Midget Porn that he downloaded several days ago? At what point would connectivity enhance any of those activities?

That's what people are getting at. There are just so many actions for which having external connectivity has no practical benefit, nor any material benefit. If I want to browse the Interwebs to get more Norwegian Midget Porn, I have to be online. If I've already got those little bastards downloaded, I'm set for a (short) while.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's this kind of "incomplete" thinking that got a game mechanic like that written in the first place.

What if his only need for his computer was to type up a report and print it? At no point does he require wireless connectivity to do that. What if he's just playing the campaign of Rome: Total War? Or if he's watching Norwegian Midget Porn that he downloaded several days ago? At what point would connectivity enhance any of those activities?

That's what people are getting at. There are just so many actions for which having external connectivity has no practical benefit, nor any material benefit. If I want to browse the Interwebs to get more Norwegian Midget Porn, I have to be online. If I've already got those little bastards downloaded, I'm set for a (short) while.

Norwegian Midget Porn? Is that a Thing? *shudders* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kruger]

No idea. Probably. Rule 34 and all.

[Draco18s]

Norwegian Midget Porn? Is that a Thing? *shudders* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Meh. If it isn't, it should be. I've seen just about everything else.

[Ephiral]

Sorry but no, if i pull out the Ethernet cable out from the back of my computer it becomes 100% unhackable from afar and it still works just as well as it did before except i cant surf the net with it.

Emphasis mine. So your machine is perfectly secure over the network, and perfectly unusable over the network. It remains usable locally, and insecure locally. How does this contradict "secure systems are unusable, usable systems are insecure", exactly?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Again, Dumpshock is not a Necessity, it is a choice (and about the only online activity that I persue consistently). I have gone many months (in the past) without attaching to the Internet, and I have no programs that require it to function. And in fact have multiple PC"s at home that DO NOT RESIDE ON THE NETWORK at all. Therefore, how can you ever touch those PC's remotely? Those PC's are not denied service in any way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So then you're describing a system whose dependencies do not include network activity. Therefore, a network is not a practical attack vector and the risk associated with a networked attack is minimal. It sounds like, in the context that you're describing, to perform a network attack a malicious individual would have to first inject network connectivity to your device, and then execute their network attack.

In that sort of a scenario, you're likely more concerned about physical access to your device, than networked access.

That's fine. That doesn't change the fact that your system is still vulnerable. It just has different dependencies and vulnerabilities to different threat vectors.

Personally? I find that the benefits of online connectivity outweigh the risks associated with online connectivity because I use systems where, practically speaking, online connectivity is a dependency. All of this, in no way, invalidates that usable systems are, by their nature, insecure in one way or another.

Full stop. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Kruger]

So then you're describing a system whose dependencies do not include network activity.

Strangely enough, exactly like Wired Reflexes would be.

[Daedelus]

It's this kind of "incomplete" thinking that got a game mechanic like that written in the first place.

What if his only need for his computer was to type up a report and print it? At no point does he require wireless connectivity to do that. What if he's just playing the campaign of Rome: Total War? Or if he's watching Norwegian Midget Porn that he downloaded several days ago? At what point would connectivity enhance any of those activities?

That's what people are getting at. There are just so many actions for which having external connectivity has no practical benefit, nor any material benefit. If I want to browse the Interwebs to get more Norwegian Midget Porn, I have to be online. If I've already got those little bastards downloaded, I'm set for a (short) while.

It sounds as if some of those items are not given bonuses. Some. that are questionable, are. We have a small sample to work from and cannot make any legitimate statistical analysis yet. I was speaking of the concept not the implementation. None of us can speak with any degree of expertise, to the implementation because we have not seen it yet. Well most of us anyway. I have not and I won't make any leap to judgment one way or the other until I have done my own homework. I'm not sure everyone here can say the same.