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> Memory lane, Threads from the SR3-4 transition
Not of this Worl...
post Jun 25 2013, 05:54 AM
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Just thought I would share some references for what happened last time we went through an edition change (which was a much huger overhaul than what is going on from 4 to 5):

Disgust

The upside of SR4

Many thanks to Patrick Goodman

SR goes new WOD

SR4 FAQ #5

Playtester's view of SR4

Why all the hate?

SR4 a joke?

FAQ#4 what haven't they changeD?

Attributes are-a-changing

Change or Die

"The only way to know where you are going, is to know where you are and where you have been"
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Freya
post Jun 25 2013, 07:59 PM
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Thank you for this thread. As someone who wasn't here for the SR3-SR4 transition but has worked on SR5 a little, it's nice to have a reminder to keep it all in perspective.
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 26 2013, 12:25 AM
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Boy howdy. I was a naive dick back then....
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BishopMcQ
post Jun 26 2013, 12:32 AM
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He luckily didn't find the posts where I called out Kylleran and his crew. But, yeah, I think a bunch of us were not at our best in those days.

Here's another trip down memory lane. Bull's rules about Edition discussions:

Ok, since no one can seem to discuss the two at the same time without fighting, I'm laying down a couple rules regarding these. Break them at your own peril.

1) If a poster asks which version you like, you may give your opinions about why you like Version X. However, you may not disparage Version Y. So for example, you may state to your hearts content why you like Shadowrun 3, the virtues and merits of the dice pool system and intitiative and whatever. You may not bash, flame, put down, or be negative about Shadowrun 4. Simply state "I prefer Shadowrun 3 over Shadowrun 4, because 3 has these features I like." Period. No toeing the line. No backhanded insults. Nada. And the same applies to SR4 fans as well. No bashing the old system.

2) If specifically asked why you do not like or prefer System X, you may respond. However, keep it polite, keep it brief, do not use this as an oppurtunity to flame the folks that do play System X nor the folks who wrote it, playtested it, or may work on it in the future. Do not start a debate about X vs Y. State your case, and walk away.

3) There will be no more fighting, arguing, flaming, or whatever else about the two system. Period. This is your warning. The moderators have all given out warnings and one and two week bans to folks on both sides of this argument (And almost exclusivly because of this argument). We're sick of it. Play nice, or don't play at all.

Bull
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quentra
post Jun 26 2013, 02:23 AM
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I just wanted to say that re-reading these old threads gave me a nice kick in perspective. I started playing SR on the tail-end of SR3 and wasn't on DS until after Core came out, and I remember thinking how SR4 was an improvement over 3 in every conceivable way - but these old threads, and the people arguing for SR3 vs 4 remind me so much of the rationalisations I'm using for 4 vs 5, and well...I feel appropriately chastened. Since the SR5 previews came out, I went from 'awesome!' to 'meh!' but now...well, let's just say I'll actually hold judgement and give the new edition the chance it deserves.
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Umidori
post Jun 26 2013, 02:51 AM
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Thanks for this, NotW. Perspective is one of those things that once you lose sight of, you forget to look for.

I personally wasn't part of the Shadowrun community for anything prior to 4th, and I got in pretty late even there. It helps to be able to examine the "historical record" in a somewhat more organized and accessible way than to just try my luck crawling through the dark, unused portions of the forum that haven't been active in years. If nothing else, it has helped me to step back and try to stop being so worked about about a lot of my concerns regarding the new system.

------

On a different note, Patrick, I dunno why you're always so self-effacing, but you do good work and I appreciate your input and presence in the community and the game system. I don't always agree with you, and sometimes I wish I'd hear back from you more often on topics of personal interest to me, but I at least want you to know that I respect what you do and the pains you take to do it well.

Oh, and looking over the thread from eight years ago, I have to echo the sentiment that of all the folks involved in making more SR on these boards, you seem to be one of the more visible and approachable - at least from my limited point of view. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi
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Critias
post Jun 26 2013, 02:58 AM
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Man, fuck that Patrick Goodman guy.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 26 2013, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 25 2013, 08:58 PM) *
Man, fuck that Patrick Goodman guy.

I didn't get near as much of that as I probably had coming.
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Not of this Worl...
post Jun 26 2013, 03:43 AM
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What happened to that younger Critias guy anyways?

Some of the old threads I wanted unfortunately appear to have gotten toasted, I believe because they ended up getting locked. Believe it or not, but Dumpshock actually has changed a lot over the years. Normally I lurk here most of the year ever since getting burned during the last edition change. A lot of nasty things were said by fans of both editions. I'm still friends with some old forum posters from the board who don't read it any more because of how hostile things became at that time. I hope as the latest edition change comes up people won't go scorched earth again.

To my fellow posters, especially those like me who don't have the new book in hand:

* Be patient, a lot of things won't be bad as they seem because you haven't read them in perspective. Your ignorance has made you wrong.
* Be patient in your praise, some things that sound good as a concept won't be implemented in the ways you imagine. Don't be overly disappointed.

For the freelancers. I wrote most of a book and submitted it to Fanpro.. only to be told that my hard work couldn't even be considered because it was no longer the correct edition. A few days later the announcement of 4th edition was made. Kind of a major disappointment because fiction wise it took a direction I didn't even want to write for. You hope the writing you've poured your soul into will be received one way, you're even prepared for the bad news of it being received in a bad way but when it gets rejected in a way you didn't expect you have to ... grieve. I mean that in all its stages and I see some of you going through it now. Even an experienced traveler gets serious culture shock when they don't expect it and I believe for writers it can be the same. You're used to feedback positive and negative, but an edition change presents a whole new level of it.

* it might feel like doomsday or the rapture right now but it isn't. People's opinions are going to change as above when they actually read the book. Try to enjoy this roller coaster ride for what it is right now.

I compulsively bought almost every book from 1st edition to 3rd at some point, but I won't spend a dollar on 4th edition. I'm THAT disgruntled old guy. For what it is worth I'll be pre-ordering 5th edition because you brought back enough of what makes it Shadowrun for this guy to give it a try. Until then everybody can we take a breath and sit nervously in our seats? Hope for the best and be gracious in disappointment.

Peace.
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Not of this Worl...
post Jun 26 2013, 04:39 AM
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The wireless memory hole:

Why go wireless?

More news of Origins

The wireless age

Arrrggg. Technomancers

Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging

Compromise

The discussions on bonuses for hacking cyberware are almost identical in my opinion.

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tasti man LH
post Jun 26 2013, 04:55 AM
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...and to think I'm in the awkward position of joining the SR fan community and getting caught right in the middle of the chaos of edition transitions.

The madness here both disturbs me yet highly amuses my more sadistic side of thinking.
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Critias
post Jun 26 2013, 04:56 AM
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QUOTE (Not of this World @ Jun 25 2013, 10:43 PM) *
What happened to that younger Critias guy anyways?

Eight or nine years of growing up, a marriage, etc? Y'know. Boring stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Bull
post Jun 26 2013, 05:06 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 25 2013, 11:56 PM) *
Eight or nine years of growing up, a marriage, etc? Y'know. Boring stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Man, you were a dick back then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

<grin>
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quentra
post Jun 26 2013, 05:14 AM
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Nah, Crit was just a bit more, erm...Direct. That's the word.
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Mach_Ten
post Jun 26 2013, 12:59 PM
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as someone that has in the last 6 months done the SR3->SR4(a)-> whatever happens next, Dance.

I can see a lot of similarites in the comments and questions, yet the majority of you are all still here ... still being dicks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) and still playing SRx.

So, .. Ummm ... what happened ? was it houserules or Errata or did devs back down and not implement some of the stuff that had you all throwing toys out the pram ?

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BishopMcQ
post Jun 26 2013, 02:05 PM
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For me, I got over it and started reading the new books. Change is inevitable, embrace it and accept it. I've seen employees making $80k plus start throwing some of the same hissy fits that we see in Edition changes, because a policy and software change means that they have to automate a report instead of spending 4 hours doing it by hand.

Anywhere there's a sweeping change, there will be people bucking against it because it means the end of all that is good and right in the world.
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ChromeZephyr
post Jun 26 2013, 02:35 PM
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Heh, I remember being irked at the change to initiative rules from 2nd to 3rd. If there had been DS back then I'd have been venting my teenage ire all over the place about how they nerfed the fuck out of street sams' initiative mods. "God dammit, I paid the essence for those Wired Reflexes, why is Mr. Mage over there getting a chance to power bolt me before I shoot him 6 times!??!"

...though I think I might have gotten into a row with a couple people on Shadowland about that exact thing a few years later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Patrick Goodman
post Jun 26 2013, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 25 2013, 09:51 PM) *
On a different note, Patrick, I dunno why you're always so self-effacing, but you do good work and I appreciate your input and presence in the community and the game system. I don't always agree with you, and sometimes I wish I'd hear back from you more often on topics of personal interest to me, but I at least want you to know that I respect what you do and the pains you take to do it well.

Self-effacing? I don't see it that way, but I suppose I am. I'm just a guy who tries to do a good job, and while I enjoy it when people like my stuff, I'm not the guy who wants the spotlight that much. I think I do pretty good work, too, but unless I'm trying to divert attention from another crisis or I'm just not feeling too good emotionally (bi-polar disorder sucks, I'll just tell you that flat-out), I'm not going to call attention to my own stuff too much. I'm a lousy self-promoter.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm sorry if I've not gotten back to you as often as you'd like, but it's one of those things. Some days I'm hunting, as one of the other freelancers put it, for the "Set DSF on fire" key on my keyboard. This place gets frustrating, and there are times that I just don't want to interact with anyone. And there's also the time crunch: Time here is time away from my day job, my writing, and my family (in reverse order of importance). I've been able to spend less time here defending my work on SR5 because I've been working on the initial errata document (and to my fellow freelancers, I say...someone else can do the fraggin' FAQ), or converting Martin de Vries to SR5 for the Storm Front update that's going to be happening soonish, or converting the characters from Another Rainy Night to SR5 for the sequel I'm working on (which will be dual-statted, FWIW, and that's going to be interesting), or, you know, actually writing the sequel.

So if I don't get back to you about something, it's almost certainly nothing personal. And again, thanks for the kind words; they mean a lot.
QUOTE
Oh, and looking over the thread from eight years ago, I have to echo the sentiment that of all the folks involved in making more SR on these boards, you seem to be one of the more visible and approachable - at least from my limited point of view.

I try to be a calming influence. Some days it's easier than others.
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