The Matrix Bonuses in all their terrible glory., And how to get fucking rid of them. Options

[ShadowDragon8685]

I do not have a copy of SR5 yet. However, someone on Dumpshock was kind enough to link to This post on Shadowrun4.com wherein KarmaInferno discloses all the horribleness in its terrible glory.

Here is that list in its unadulterated state of poo, by the way. I've omitted the "No wireless bonus" entries, which is ironic as many of them were things that bloody well could have done with wireless boni. (Seriously, dafuq were they smoking? Your goddamned cyberblades need internet access to snap out, but your commlink, something which is by design intended to handle large amounts of data, can't get a boost by cloud computing? Come on guys, there are glaucoma patients and traumatized war veterans who desperately need whatever it is you smoked!)

[ Spoiler ]

THE GRAND LIST OF WIRELESS BONUSES

- Melee Weapons

Forearm Snap-Blades: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.

Survival Knife: AR-display GPS functions, can be used to make comm-calls.

Extendable Baton: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.

Stun Baton: Slowly recharge via induction.

Telescoping Staff: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.

Monofilament Whip: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action, retract instead of entangling on a glitch, +2 Accuracy

Shock Gloves: Slowly recharge via induction.


- Firearms

Defiance EX Shocker: Successful hit transmits target's health status.

Yamaha Pulsar: Successful hit transmits target's health status.

Fichetti Tiffani Needler: Change color of gun as a Simple Action. (Apparantly you can't change the color without it)

Fichetti Pain Inducer: Slowly recharge via induction.

Parashield Dart Pistol & Rifle: Dart reports back to shooter about successful injection, and some basic medical info of target.

Ares Antioch-2, ArmTech MGL-12, Aztechnology Striker, Onotari Interceptor: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.


- Firearm Accesories

Airburst Link: Must have Wireless mode on to function at all.

Bipod/Tripod: Free Action to activate/stow instead of Simple/Complex Action.

Concealable Holster: Alter pattern and color in real time improving concealability.

Gyro-Mount: Free Action to Quick Release instead of a Complex Action.

Hidden Arm Slide: Free Action to ready weapon.

Imaging Scope: Share camera feed with teammates.

Laser Sight: +1 DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus

Periscope: Reduce the DP penalty for shooting around corners to -2 (Which the periscope ALREADY DOES)

Silencer/Suppressor: Built in microphone can detect if someone reacts to the sound of the silenced weapon. (Wait, why does this need Matrix?)

Smart Firing Platform: Control platform remotely.

Smartgun System: DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus.


- Grenades, Rockets, and Missiles

Grenades: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.

Flash-Pak: Pak avoids directing flashes at subscribed characters, reducing penalty for those characters.

Rockets & Missiles: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.


- Explosives

Detonator Cap: Set detonator's timer with a Simple Action, or detonate immediately as a Free Action.


- Clothing and Armor

Electrochromic Clothing: Free Action to alter color instead of Simple Action.

Chemical Seal: Free Action to activate instead of Complex Action.

Thermal Damping: Additional data from surroundings adds a DP bonus to Sneaking.

Riot Shield: Slowly recharge via induction.


- RFIDs

Sensor Tags: Monitor sensor feed in real time


- Communications & Countermeasures

Bug Scanner: Substitute device rating for Electronic Warfare skill.

Data Tap: Self destruct remotely as Free Action.

Jammer: Set jammer to not affect specific targets

Micro-tranceiver: Range becomes 'worldwide'.

Tag Eraser: Slowly recharge via induction.

White Noise Generator: Triple effective radius of effect. (Buh?)


- Optical, Audio & other Sensors

Vision Enhancement: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception visual skill tests.

Spacial Recognizer: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception audible skill tests.


- Security Devices, B&E Gear

Autopicker: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus to pick a lock, due to accessing online database of locks.

Maglock Passkey: +1 bonus to rating.

Sequencer: +1 bonus to rating.


- Chemicals

Thermite Burning Bar: Ignite bar remotely. (Buh?)


- Survival Gear

Gas Mask: Mask analyses air around you.

Gecko Gloves: Shut off stickiness wirelessly.

Hazmat Suit: Suit analyses environment around you.


- Biotech

Medkit: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on First Aid skill tests, or can operate by itself at ratingx2 DP.

Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test. (Seriously? The Matrix Heals!)


- Cyberware

Datajack: Adds Rating 1 Noise Reduction

Skilljack: "The extra boost from the Matrix" increases the total max combined Skillsoft ratings from Ratingx2 to Ratingx3

Fingertip Compartment: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex. (SERIOUSLY?!)

Internal Air Tank: Activating/Deactivating tank is Free instead of Simple, tank reports current air level.

Reaction Enhancers: Allows stacking with Wired Reflexes.

Skillwires: +1 Limit to skillsoft tests due to expanded memory cache.

Smuggling Compartment, small & large: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.

Wired Reflexes: Allows stacking with Reaction Enhancers.

Cyberarm Gyromount: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.

Cyber Holster: Free Action to ready weapon instead of Simple Action.

Hydraulic Jacks: +1 DP bonus in addition to Limit bonus. (WHY?)

Without having access to an SR5 book, I am going to say that, sight-unseen, here is how I would be houseruling things.

1: Everything that gets implanted in your body gets hardwired to your brain, for better or for worse, unless it's something with a nefarious purpose that wasn't put there by you, such as the cranial bomb that Renraku so thoughtfully fitted you with as a farewell present after your stint in their corporate prison.

2: Connectivity works exactly as it worked in SR4. You CAN wirelessly connect the things you're wearing, but if you're more security-conscious than that, you can fit them with skinlinks or connect them via fiber-optic cable. Esoteric connections (such as laser and skinlink) still work and exist as they always did.

The "Wireless Boni" (seen above) get adjusted as follows:

Many things have been tagged with simpler boilerplate.
PAN means that it works in the listed "wireless bonus" manner if it is connected to your PAN by any means, but does not need Matrix access to function. (IE, it will still work IN A CAVE, with a BOX OF SCRAPS. As long as your PAN is functioning.) You can command it by any means at your disposal for manipulating your PAN, including free, if you have a direct neural link of some sort or another, such as an implanted commlink/deck or an implanted datajack connected by fiber-optic. It CAN be done wirelessly, sure.
INDUCTION CHARGE is an interesting case. Things which charge by induction will always do so, they don't have to broadcast their location to the Matrix. If the induction power is available, it is available passively, and the devices can recharge. And even if some place has instituted a system where the induction charge needs a device to say "Hey, I'm waiting for a charge here, fill me up," it may have to broadcast its location to the charger, but it still does NOT have to listen to anything the Matrix is saying.
CYBER means that it's implanted and functions as though it were always connected to your PAN, because it's been WIRED INTO YOUR SKULL!
If it has any other text, then it was interesting enough to warrant me thinking about it and dedicating my thoughts to text. Now those are indented, too!

[ Spoiler ]

THE GRAND LIST OF WIRELESS BONUSES as adjusted by me

• Melee Weapons
  
  • Forearm Snap-Blades: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
    PAN
  • Survival Knife: AR-display GPS functions, can be used to make comm-calls.
    

    Interesting - this actually is a genuine "Matrix Bonus," in that it incorporates an ultra-simple commlink into the knife. Obviously, the knife would still work as a knife without Matrix connectivity - and indeed, would continue to work as a knife even if the ultra-simple commlink were completely bricked.

  • Extendable Baton: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
    PAN
  • Stun Baton: Slowly recharge via induction.
    INDUCTION CHARGE
  • Telescoping Staff: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
    PAN
  • Monofilament Whip: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action, retract instead of entangling on a glitch, +2 Accuracy
    

    PAN activation. Also, dafuq? How does being on the Matrix grant the whip accuracy or prevent entangling? Did somebody invent a Smartwhip Link now? Actually, I'd suppose it's not too far-fetched that someone made a monowhip out of myomer, so call that a more expensive version (+50% cost) that can interface with a smartlink for the listed boni.

  • Shock Gloves: Slowly recharge via induction.
    INDUCTION CHARGE
  
  
• Firearms
  
  • Defiance EX Shocker: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
    PAN
  • Yamaha Pulsar: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
    

    PAN, but the darts will have to burst the data over the air, giving away their location, and you'll need something to be at least passively listening to display the data.

  • Fichetti Tiffani Needler: Change color of gun as a Simple Action.
    PAN
  • Fichetti Pain Inducer: Slowly recharge via induction.
    INDUCTION CHARGE
  • Parashield Dart Pistol & Rifle: Dart reports back to shooter about successful injection, and some basic medical info of target.
    

    PAN, but the darts will have to burst the data over the air, giving away their location, and you'll need something to be at least passively listening to display the data.

  • Ares Antioch-2, ArmTech MGL-12, Aztechnology Striker, Onotari Interceptor: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.
    

    Well, yeah. It would need to be listening to wireless commands to fire when it's not in your hands.

  
  
• Firearm Accesories
  
  • Airburst Link: Must have Wireless mode on to function at all.
    

    MOTHER-FU ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! Okay, I'm calm: it's PAN. You can set the airburst before launching as some kind of action if you don't have DNI (manually, if need be, via a control on the launcher,) as a free action with DNI, or you can just launch it and tell it to wait for detonation, which takes the same sort of actions.

  • Bipod/Tripod: Free Action to activate/stow instead of Simple/Complex Action.
    PAN
  • Concealable Holster: Alter pattern and color in real time improving concealability.
    

    PAN, but you'll need some kind of sensors for it to work. Either buy one with a few basic cameras built in, link it to your tacnet/your cybereyes, or actually let it be wireless and grab data-streams from the thousands of cameras looking around, if you're too cheap to do that and so stupid as to allow something that is by definition intended to be covert look up Mitsuhama Real Time Street View to get a picture of what you're wearing and where you are, but only in areas where such feeds are appropriate.

  • Gyro-Mount: Free Action to Quick Release instead of a Complex Action.
    PAN
  • Hidden Arm Slide: Free Action to ready weapon.
    PAN
  • Imaging Scope: Share camera feed with teammates.
    

    We call this a "TacNet." By definition, it's networked, so unless your entire team is literally connected by wires, it's gonna have to be Matrix.

  • Laser Sight: +1 DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus
    PAN. FUCKING PAN!
  • Periscope: Reduce the DP penalty for shooting around corners to -2.
    PAN
  • Silencer/Suppressor: Built in microphone can detect if someone reacts to the sound of the silenced weapon.
    PAN
  • Smart Firing Platform: Control platform remotely.
    

    Actually, yes. The Smart Firing Platform basically turns the gun into a small, immobile drone, so you do need to use the Matrix to issue it commands.

  • Smartgun System: DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus.
    

    PAN! For the love of Ghost, PAN! This would ONLY matter if you were taking a SNIPING shot across significant distances of open, aboveground terrain and were so stupid that you didn't bring your own air sensor.

  
  
• Grenades, Rockets, and Missiles
  
  • Grenades: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.
    

    Well, yeah. That's kind of the point of a wireless detonation.

  • Flash-Pak: Pak avoids directing flashes at subscribed characters, reducing penalty for those characters.
    

    Actually, this is kind of useful, and makes sense. Of course, it also gives away the position of those characters.

  • Rockets & Missiles: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.
    Wireless detonation.
  
  
• Explosives
  
  • Detonator Cap: Set detonator's timer with a Simple Action, or detonate immediately as a Free Action.
    

    PAN, unless you want to change things after it's been placed.

  
  
• Clothing and Armor
  
  • Electrochromic Clothing: Free Action to alter color instead of Simple Action.
    PAN
  • Chemical Seal: Free Action to activate instead of Complex Action.
    PAN
  • Thermal Damping: Additional data from surroundings adds a DP bonus to Sneaking.
    

    PAN, needs sensors unless you're so stupid as to allow it to connect to somebody else's sensors, in which case it will work without you having sensors, and you can expect the incoming fire directed at you to be guided by radio-frequency triangulation rather than thermal imaging. GG.

  • Riot Shield: Slowly recharge via induction.
    INDUCTION CHARGE
  
  
• RFIDs
  
  • Sensor Tags: Monitor sensor feed in real time
    

    This is kind of the whole fucking point of an RFID tag.

    
    [list]
  • Communications & Countermeasures
    [list]
  • Bug Scanner: Substitute device rating for Electronic Warfare skill.
    

    Actually, this almost makes sense, assuming it's connecting back to some kind of remote system that has an Agent equal to the scanner's device rating run the scan for you, and it checks definitions while it's at it. I would say, however, for an additional fee equal to the price of one agent with the appropriate autosoft, the device itself could keep that agent running locally, and then you just want to check definitions every now and then. (Say, fifteen minutes to an hour before you need to use a bug scanner would be ideal.)

  • Data Tap: Self destruct remotely as Free Action.
    Wireless, so... Yeah.
  • Jammer: Set jammer to not affect specific targets
    

    PAN. You need to set these functions beforehand, or else have the jammer physically installed on your person and connected to your PAN. Once it's set and deployed, it can't be changed unless at bare minimum the person who deployed it is one of those it's set not to affect, or they have a transmitter and ECCM powerful enough to cut through their own jamming and the device is actually set to give a damn about what the Matrix is telling it.

  • Micro-tranceiver: Range becomes 'worldwide'.
    Well, yeah.
  • Tag Eraser: Slowly recharge via induction.
    INDUCTION CHARGE
  • White Noise Generator: Triple effective radius of effect.
    

    Dafuq? This doesn't make any sense at all unless it's hacking every device around it to use their speakers to emit white noise, or those devices were somehow programmed to comply with such orders voluntarily. This "bonus" goes out the door altogether. Sorry, white noise enthusiasts.

  
  
• Optical, Audio & other Sensors
  
  • Vision Enhancement: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception visual skill tests.
    PAN
  • Spacial Recognizer: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception audible skill tests.
    PAN
  
  
• Security Devices, B&E Gear
  
  • Autopicker: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus to pick a lock, due to accessing online database of locks.
    

    Actually, this actually is a reasonable Matrix "Bonus," assuming you want your illegal lock-tampering device broadcasting its location and function. Refresh your database before you go on the Run and get your bonus.

  • Maglock Passkey: +1 bonus to rating.
    Seriously? No. Just no.
  • Sequencer: +1 bonus to rating.
    No, just no.
  
  
• Chemicals
  
  • Thermite Burning Bar: Ignite bar remotely.
    

    Assuming the burning bar has been equipped with a device which is (a) capable of receiving wireless signals and (b) capable of igniting the bar, this could work. Or you could set it on a timer.

  
  
• Survival Gear
  
  • Gas Mask: Mask analyses air around you.
    

    PAN. Or, if the gas mask features goggles or a face-shield, it can probably display that on itself, too.

  • Gecko Gloves: Shut off stickiness wirelessly.
    PAN.
  • Hazmat Suit: Suit analyses environment around you.
    

    PAN/face-shield display.

  
  
• Biotech
  
  • Medkit: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on First Aid skill tests, or can operate by itself at ratingx2 DP.
    

    The DP bonus is an integral part of the medkit because duh, and operating by itself is an Agent function. I guess you could have that wirelessly done by a remote server somewhere, or, if you'd rather your DocWagon brand medkit not be phoning back to DocWagon to tell DocWagon it's in operation and working on X at Y, where Y happens to be the DocWagon facility you're infiltrating, you could get the Agent and run it locally.

  • Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test.
    

    The MATRIX HEALS! Just kidding, this is fucking bullshit. This "Bonus" doesn't exist in any form, unless the GM wants to be nice and say that trauma patches stabilize automatically passively, and never need to roll.

  
  
• Cyberware
  
  • Datajack: Adds Rating 1 Noise Reduction
    

    This actually makes a modicum of sense, if it can wirelessly connect to nearby devices and coordinate with them so your PAN and devices aren't as affected. But then, literally any device should be able to do that, too, at the small exchange of making itself known to nearby devices. But then, you don't install a datajack if you want to do everything wireless, do you?

  • Skilljack: "The extra boost from the Matrix" increases the total max combined Skillsoft ratings from Ratingx2 to Ratingx3
    

    Because nothing is more awesome than having ping issues when you're shooting FOR REALSIES! Hit a patch of lag and you'll be downloading the processed actions required to shoot your gun about a quarter-second too late. No. Just no. That said, the bonus could potentially be had if you hardwire your skilljack into a commlink or other powerful processor and run a program for it.

  • Fingertip Compartment: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex. (SERIOUSLY?!)
    CYBER
  • Internal Air Tank: Activating/Deactivating tank is Free instead of Simple, tank reports current air level.
    CYBER
  • Reaction Enhancers: Allows stacking with Wired Reflexes.
    CYBER
  • Skillwires: +1 Limit to skillsoft tests due to expanded memory cache.
    

    Because ping issues are fun! Hardwire it into a powerful processor with a lot of memory (like a commlink) to get this bonus.

  • Smuggling Compartment, small & large: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.
    CYBER
  • Wired Reflexes: Allows stacking with Reaction Enhancers.
    CYBER
  • Cyberarm Gyromount: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
    CYBER
  • Cyber Holster: Free Action to ready weapon instead of Simple Action.
    CYBER
  • Hydraulic Jacks: +1 DP bonus in addition to Limit bonus.
    Seriously? CYBER

So, there you have it. Some houserules, probably ready to go out of the box for anyone familiar enough with SR4 to have a working understanding of the SR4 Matrix topography (IE, you know what mutual signal range is and can extrapolate from that to determine if two devices can wirelessly interact through the matrix mesh,) and delivered by someone who is furious with the idea that Sammies needed a nerf or that hackers needed to be able to brick someone's cybereyes in the middle of a firefight.


[e]And now the nested lists actually work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
[e][e]And now with additional indentations on the things with notes instead of tags.

[RHat]

So I take it you're just throwing out the distributed computing explanation entirely? I won't argue that it explains everything (as it clearly doesn't, and I'm pretty sure it was never supposed to), but it VERY MUCH explains the bonus of, for example, Vision Enhancement far better than a simple PAN connection does. And helps demonstrate just how powerful the Matrix actually is.

[ShadowDragon8685]

RHat: The problem is that distributed computing only works (a) when you have access to distributed computing, and (b) it only works for processes which do not need to happen RIGHT FUCKING THIS FUCKING GODDAMN FUCKING INSTA - too late.

The literal only way that distributed computing could work for something like your vision enhancement is if it is (a) analyzing a recording ex post facto, or (b) your vision enhancement features quantum fucking entangled faster-than-light communications.

Shadowrun tech is advanced, but it's not Mass Effect tech, and even in Mass Effect, quantum-entangled communications were expensive and rare ([e]Also, probably too bulky to fit in your cyber.). Quantum entanglement also requires dedicated quantum-entangled quantum bits, so you're going to have to set up your own receiver and nexus to do your real-time data crunching for you.

On the other hand, distributed computing would be great to brute-force your way through extended tests; decrypting stuff, for instance, or social interaction if you had a Deus Ex Human Revolution style CASIE aug.

[RHat]

RHat: The problem is that distributed computing only works (a) when you have access to distributed computing, and (b) it only works for processes which do not need to happen RIGHT FUCKING THIS FUCKING GODDAMN FUCKING INSTA - too late.

The literal only way that distributed computing could work for something like your vision enhancement is if it is (a) analyzing a recording ex post facto, or (b) your vision enhancement features quantum fucking entangled faster-than-light communications.

Shadowrun tech is advanced, but it's not Mass Effect tech, and even in Mass Effect, quantum-entangled communications were expensive and rare. Quantum entanglement also requires dedicated quantum-entangled quantum bits, so you're going to have to set up your own receiver and nexus to do your real-time data crunching for you.

On the other hand, distributed computing would be great to brute-force your way through extended tests; decrypting stuff, for instance, or social interaction if you had a Deus Ex Human Revolution style CASIE aug.

Actually, local area connections would be plenty fast enough based on the speeds in SR4 - where the Matrix was faster than people, and could be faster than the fastest Street Sam; hackers/rigger/'mancers were the only ones who could ever see 5 passes in SR4, after all. Keep in mind that in this version of distributed computing, it's threads thrown to nearby devices or something of the sort, which RADICALLY reduces the amount of time it would take and makes live-time processing of algorithms that could not be done in live-time on your comm-link hypothetically possible.

And, of course, it has nothing at all to do with the connection speed being faster - rather, the connection speed is simply fast enough as to cease to be a bottleneck.

[Not of this Worl...]

No, I'd say 70% of this is simply going away. Not going bother with complicated home rules.

Forearm snap blades have been a free action forever for my SR3 group which never made the jump to ridiculous wifi world. Anything that loses functionality from my SR3 game is simply getting a single stroke of the pen in the book to make it go away without undue complication.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Not of this World: Thanks, feel free to keep your version ludditism to yourself.

It's not complicated. You just think it is because you never went to SR4, which is not "ridiculous wifi world."

[KarmaInferno]

I do not have a copy of SR5 yet. However, someone on Dumpshock was kind enough to link to This post on Shadowrun4.com wherein KarmaInferno discloses all the horribleness in its terrible glory.

I strongly suspect the folks at Catalyst might be a wee bit annoyed at me by this point.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[Critias]

I strongly suspect the folks at Catalyst might be a wee bit annoyed at me by this point.

Why would we be? At least you've looked at the book before criticizing it. It's a refreshing breath of fresh air, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Tzeentch]

Some of these online-enabled bonuses are funny and absurd. How does cloud computing make your snap blades deploy faster? The recharge stuff doesn't make any sense to me, either.

Others are "Yeah, ok, over-complicated and gamey but I can see it."

I doubt this experiment to push players to be decker targets will work, but it's not quite the nuisance I would have thought.

[Epicedion]

Several things:

1) "Power by induction" online bonuses granting additional risk makes sense, as presumably a hacker would be able to tap into whatever the device is drawing power from (which appears to be the ambient Matrix) and overload it. Those things apparently go into "receiving active signal" mode, so sending some extra watts down the feed seems very possible considering the technology involved. Also, the device itself would have to send out some sort of signal to let everything around it know to focus some power on it.

2) If something is connecting to a PAN, it's vulnerable via the Matrix. It may be 'hidden' or hard to find or whatever, but it's still engaging an active signal. For non-cyberware devices like the Forearm Snap Blades, there is no DNI involved because there's no skinlink anymore, and you're not plugging your monowhip into your brain. Every spot where you say "passively listen for data" or any such thing means that your device has an open channel that can be infiltrated. No one ever said attacks had to come from a bi-directional connection.

3) The devices that give +1 while online seems to be replacing the idea of the "if you're using AR for such and such, you get a bonus" from SR4. Stuff like a Trauma Patch can either be applied correctly with a bit of luck (roll) or link up to the Matrix, report the exact status of a wound, and receive instructions for exactly how to self-apply. Remember that 'data' in the case of a device isn't a thumb drive worth of data. When the Autopicker synchs up it's accessing a relational database of billions of possible examples and using computational power it doesn't have onboard to churn through the relevant ones. It's saying to its sources in the Matrix "hey I've got this problem" and the Matrix provides an answer, near-instantaneously.

4) Apparently there's a lot of extra data that you can get from just sniffing the Matrix locally. The spatial recognizer can read a local Matrix map and adjust its output accordingly. The visual enhancer can 'see' Matrix information and interpret that into usable visual data (there's a low-data-density region in the local Matrix field that 90% corresponds to such and such so highlight it)

5) If the only thing you have against certain things is the 'ping' involved, the Matrix appears to have exceptionally low latency all of the time. Otherwise people wouldn't project their brains over it.

6) Cyberware working together over wireless makes sense. When you get Wired Reflexes and a Reaction Enhancer, you don't get a big processor installed to make them talk to each other. Ditto for most other cyberware (how should an air tank let you know its remaining air level? Electric shocks?). You don't get a piece installed and then have it wired to your cyberears and then to your cybereyes all directly, and presuming that these things should somehow "just link up" is a bigger handwave than anything I've ever seen suggested here.

[Udoshi]

Why would we be? At least you've looked at the book before criticizing it. It's a refreshing breath of fresh air, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

What are the odds we're going to see a Shadowrun 5th: 2070's campaign book?
You know, like the previous edition's 2050's book.

One that actually addresses concerns and fixes issues with the 'new' system?

[Tzeentch]

1. A signal that strong would indicate a better than 100 meter range. It would also be a cancer risk.
2. I don't see how you can spin Device-->Matrix cloud-->Device as more efficient that a direct connect. Especially since you already have a direct connect to trigger the item in question.
3. Yup, this stuff can make sense.
4. This presumes that all of your data is automatically geocoded and for some reason also geocached in the local (physical) network. That should set off alarm bells for criminal scum like shadowrunners.
5. True. When they did try to account for signal lag it was not well done (i.e. the old satcom decking rules).
6. As opposed to just skipping all this Matrix middleman and connecting over a bodyLAN using whatever interfaces you have already? And really, you can't think of a way to have your device inform you of issues that don't involve the Matrix? Come on now.

I admit, I did outright laugh at the hydraulic jack bonus. I can't wait to see what other shenanigans are in the cybernetics sourcebook.

[Critias]

What are the odds we're going to see a Shadowrun 5th: 2070's campaign book?
You know, like the previous edition's 2050's book.

One that actually addresses concerns and fixes issues with the 'new' system?

Likely to no one's surprise, no, we've not planned a book to "address concerns and fix issues," just yet, with the system that's not even been released.

[Epicedion]

1. A signal that strong would indicate a better than 100 meter range. It would also be a cancer risk.

No, you just ask the 10,000 devices in the area to focus a little bit at your direct location. The intersection of those little tiny bits all in the right spot on your device (it's having to broadcast its location for this level of precision, of course) would provide constructive interference at a pinpoint location.

2. I don't see how you can spin Device-->Matrix cloud-->Device as more efficient that a direct connect. Especially since you already have a direct connect to trigger the item in question.

What direct connect? We're talking about devices that aren't wired together. Forearm Snap Blades (et al) you either flick your arms out (simple action) or control microactuators via whatever you're linking to your brain. There's no direct connection from brain to blades, though, it has to go through something.

4. This presumes that all of your data is automatically geocoded and for some reason also geocached in the local (physical) network. That should set off alarm bells for criminal scum like shadowrunners.

I'm not talking about actual maps, I'm talking about an active read of the condition of the local Matrix, which exists as electromagnetic waves traveling all around and through everything.

6. As opposed to just skipping all this Matrix middleman and connecting over a bodyLAN using whatever interfaces you have already? And really, you can't think of a way to have your device inform you of issues that don't involve the Matrix? Come on now.

I admit, I did outright laugh at the hydraulic jack bonus. I can't wait to see what other shenanigans are in the cybernetics sourcebook.

What's a "bodyLAN"? If the question is "what activation interfaces do these devices really have anyway?" that's a great question.

What way does a device have of informing you? Is everything hardline wired to the visual cortex? And then wired to each other so that they don't provide conflicting, overlapping, overloading, or otherwise confusing information?

[Tzeentch]

No, you just ask the 10,000 devices in the area to focus a little bit at your direct location. The intersection of those little tiny bits all in the right spot on your device (it's having to broadcast its location for this level of precision, of course) would provide constructive interference at a pinpoint location.

That is Rube-Goldberg level of over-engineering. I still don't think that could work (actually, what you describe sounds like it could be weaponized), but passive recharging is pretty low on my list of things to get worked up about in these rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What direct connect? We're talking about devices that aren't wired together. Forearm Snap Blades (et al) you either flick your arms out (simple action) or control microactuators via whatever you're linking to your brain. There's no direct connection from brain to blades, though, it has to go through something.

Even if it's totally manual and you lock and unlock by flexing muscles how the heck is the Matrix speeding up deployment. Prediction? Using ephemeral Matrix energies to supercharge the ejection pistons?

You seem really wedded to this concept for some reason, and aspects of it are a really good idea. But some of these implementations are ... half baked to say the least.

I'm not talking about actual maps, I'm talking about an active read of the condition of the local Matrix, which exists as electromagnetic waves traveling all around and through everything.

We also have technomancers, so I'll concede this can somehow provide information of note. You're basically just packet sniffing though, I am a bit unsure what information you could derive from waveform analysis itself.

What way does a device have of informing you? Is everything hardline wired to the visual cortex? And then wired to each other so that they don't provide conflicting, overlapping, overloading, or otherwise confusing information?

.. Ok you made me laugh even though I know you are serious for some reason. It will use whatever display or auditory mechanism the Matrix-enabled part of this Rube Goldberg exercise in game design does. You know, except skipping the whole going out to the cloud to do magic and then coming back to tell you the same thing. How do you think devices communicate to the user now (IRL and in Shadowrun 4e)? Do you need a Matrix connection to even have a HUD, display panel, or speakers? And bodyLANs are not some strange new term I just created. It's what a SR4e PAN is.

[phlapjack77]

SR4A has this to say about DNI:
"In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants."

Augmentation:
"Unless otherwise stated, cyberware that is capable of being activated or deactivated can be done so with a mental impulse. This is because the cyberware has been connected to the user’s nervous system, so it can be used in the same way the user would move a finger or flex a muscle."

Apparently skinlink has gone away, but has DNI been radically altered in SR5? If not, it seems that most of the cyberwear "online" bonuses are pretty poorly thought out.

Someone in another thread pointed out that a lot of the gear bonuses would make a lot more sense if the normal/connected bonuses were reversed. For instance, the smartgun should make everyone a better shot (bonus to DP), but if the smartgun were online it could truly aid those shots that need extra data to get every last bit of use out of the PC's skill (bonus to limit)

[Makki]

there is no DNI involved because there's no skinlink anymore,

The first plot I'll run in SR5 is the re-discovery of the Skinlink technology. The team will unveil a megacon conspiracy that tried to make every device wireless for better tracking citizens.

[Epicedion]

That is Rube-Goldberg level of over-engineering. I still don't think that could work (actually, what you describe sounds like it could be weaponized), but passive recharging is pretty low on my list of things to get worked up about in these rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It could work. You can light a lightbulb from across the room without frying everything in the intervening space -- it's just remarkably inefficient right now. It could also probably be weaponized, but the inherent inefficiency would make other things easier and cheaper. For recharging a device, we're talking about a few volts and a few microamps over time, not exactly remotely tazing it.

Even if it's totally manual and you lock and unlock by flexing muscles how the heck is the Matrix speeding up deployment. Prediction? Using ephemeral Matrix energies to supercharge the ejection pistons?

I'm saying it's totally manual, or assisted-manual (still have to perform a specific physical action to set it off). Or you have 'trodes or what-have-you and think 'BLADES' really hard and your commlink reads that and activates the blades automatically via a wireless signal way faster than your brain can move your arms. Hence taking a simple action and making it a free one. Again, there's no direct line to your arm blades because there's no more skinlink. It's either got to all be wireless, or your glasses, earbuds, gun, monowhip, arm blades, chemseal, micro-transceiver, holster, clothes, watch, survival knife, trauma patch, lockpicks, and ponytail holder all have to be physically wired to your commlink, which just sounds lovely.

We also have technomancers, so I'll concede this can somehow provide information of note. You're basically just packet sniffing though, I am a bit unsure what information you could derive from waveform analysis itself.

It's science fiction. If you knew how it could actually work you'd be a billionaire.

.. Ok you made me laugh even though I know you are serious for some reason. It will use whatever display or auditory mechanism the Matrix-enabled part of this Rube Goldberg exercise in game design does. You know, except skipping the whole going out to the cloud to do magic and then coming back to tell you the same thing. How do you think devices communicate to the user now (IRL and in Shadowrun 4e)? Do you need a Matrix connection to even have a HUD, display panel, or speakers? And bodyLANs are not some strange new term I just created. It's what a SR4e PAN is.

Visually it's either got to broadcast to a screen (including glasses, monocles, etc), broadcast to a cybereye (which sort of works like a screen in that way), broadcast to a device that can stimulate the visual cortex ('trodes), or be wired directly to the visual cortex. Audio takes similar channels.

Otherwise it's got to create some sort of spooky 'extra sense'.

What I'm saying is that getting all of your internal devices to talk to each other even in the most basic ways, for example so that they don't all project their information in the exact same spot of your vision, has got to require some processing power somewhere. Somewhere, there's got to be a computer that tells everything what to do. This is why in SR3 you needed cybereyes with image and display links to access internal data from sources like datajacks and headware memory without having to wire yourself up to a screen.

[Epicedion]

SR4A has this to say about DNI:
"In addition to wireless functionality, most cyberware devices are equipped with a direct neural interface (DNI) that allows the user to mentally activate and control their functions. They can also be linked to other cyberware implants."

Augmentation:
"Unless otherwise stated, cyberware that is capable of being activated or deactivated can be done so with a mental impulse. This is because the cyberware has been connected to the user’s nervous system, so it can be used in the same way the user would move a finger or flex a muscle."

Apparently skinlink has gone away, but has DNI been radically altered in SR5? If not, it seems that most of the cyberwear "online" bonuses are pretty poorly thought out.

Someone in another thread pointed out that a lot of the gear bonuses would make a lot more sense if the normal/connected bonuses were reversed. For instance, the smartgun should make everyone a better shot (bonus to DP), but if the smartgun were online it could truly aid those shots that need extra data to get every last bit of use out of the PC's skill (bonus to limit)

I'd totally buy reversing the smartlink bonuses in that way.

DNI turning things on and off is one thing, but DNI providing a route for understandable and specific data (like projecting it on your field of vision) seems a little much. Again, SR3 required you to either have cybereyes with display and image links to get the same sort of data, or plug a screen into your brain and read it with your regular eyes. SR4 handwaved too much with respect to how these neural interfaces worked, presumably because they wanted more shiny floaty AR windows everywhere.

The first plot I'll run in SR5 is the re-discovery of the Skinlink technology. The team will unveil a megacon conspiracy that tried to make every device wireless for better tracking citizens.

Why? Skinlink is kind of daft for the setting. You might as well introduce tightbeam microwave transmitters from your brain to your secret underground computer complex.

[hermit]

Should I decide to houserule SR5 into working for me and my group, Skinlink as a device mod that gets you WiFi Boni without WiFi for [DR] items will be the first to go in (among other things, that brings choice into this system). Taking SkinLink out entirely seems very heavy handed and unnecessarily creates canon discontinuity for the sake of forcing a "choice" down the players' throats. Yeah, everything has a price, but CGL apparently never thought that there is a third choice, always: just don't bother with it and walk away.

What really annoys me is that without WiFi Boni, you only get Limit Boni, ever, Dicepool boni are only if you bend over for being hacked. Unfortunatly, as discussed in another threrad, without an appropriate DP, a Limit bonus is useless. It could just as well give no Boni at all for most cases. That is heavy-handed, it is taking away functionality (used to give relevant bonus, now only gives relevant bonus when hackable), and it feels like a rip-off. And since this is everywhere (with the exception of Skillwires), this seems to be the core mechanism CGL wants to force hackability on players. Another obvious choice is to switch Limit and Dicepool boni. Otherwise, it's not a Bonus, it's taking away viable functions gear had for something characters with attribute+skill basic DP will not need.

Your goddamned cyberblades need internet access to snap out, but your commlink, something which is by design intended to handle large amounts of data, can't get a boost by cloud computing?

Wireless Boni don't seem to be intended to boost devices that should, by logic, profit from it. It is a gamey mechanism to make cyberware hacking a "good choice" by making everything else a bad choice, even if this screws with established canon, plausibility, and logic. A terrible waste of an opportunity to create something cool if I ever saw one.

[Epicedion]

Should I decide to houserule SR5 into working for me and my group, Skinlink as a device mod that gets you WiFi Boni without WiFi for [DR] items will be the first to go in (among other things, that brings choice into this system). Taking SkinLink out entirely seems very heavy handed and unnecessarily creates canon discontinuity for the sake of forcing a "choice" down the players' throats. Yeah, everything has a price, but CGL apparently never thought that there is a third choice, always: just don't bother with it and walk away.

Except that skinlink was a terrible idea to introduce in the first place, because it was just a simple checkbox: Are you an idiot? Yes/No.

What really annoys me is that without WiFi Boni, you only get Limit Boni, ever, Dicepool boni are only if you bend over for being hacked. Unfortunatly, as discussed in another threrad, without an appropriate DP, a Limit bonus is useless. It could just as well give no Boni at all for most cases. That is heavy-handed, it is taking away functionality (used to give relevant bonus, now only gives relevant bonus when hackable), and it feels like a rip-off. And since this is everywhere (with the exception of Skillwires), this seems to be the core mechanism CGL wants to force hackability on players. Another obvious choice is to switch Limit and Dicepool boni.

"Bend over" and "rip-off" and "force down throats" and so forth is very reactionary language. There's the possibility of consequences, so everything's an instant worst-case scenario.

[hermit]

"Bend over" and "rip-off" and "force down throats" and so forth is very reactionary language. There's the possibility of consequences, so everything's an instant worst-case scenario.

Do corps have security deckers, yes/no? If yes, every corp b&e is a worst case scenario by default. Running silent is rather ineffective.

Except that skinlink was a terrible idea to introduce in the first place, because it was just a simple checkbox: Are you an idiot? Yes/No.

Terrible legacy also is legacy, and a nerf is better than declaring something Lostech because of gameyness. Fluff are rules too, and generating dissonance in a coherent world's background is never a good idea. It would also have been better to make Dikote a bladed-weapons only upgrade, because there it actually was one of the few viable mods that made a bladed weapon upgradable.

[phlapjack77]

DNI turning things on and off is one thing, but DNI providing a route for understandable and specific data (like projecting it on your field of vision) seems a little much. Again, SR3 required you to either have cybereyes with display and image links to get the same sort of data, or plug a screen into your brain and read it with your regular eyes. SR4 handwaved too much with respect to how these neural interfaces worked, presumably because they wanted more shiny floaty AR windows everywhere.

I agree - exactly what DNI could and couldn't do was always a little unclear to me. I would have appreciated more effort in spelling that out in something like Augmentation. How much control did a character have over things like cyberware with DNI and gear with skinlink, especially if the character had no commlink to coordinate things.

The first plot I'll run in SR5 is the re-discovery of the Skinlink technology. The team will unveil a megacon conspiracy that tried to make every device wireless for better tracking citizens.

Skinlink going away doesn't bother me so much - I mean, I think it shouldn't have TOTALLY gone away, but it did seem a little too magical and ubiquitous, like dikote of previous versions. Maybe cut back on it's effectiveness somehow, like if a PC uses skinlink they're not considered "online", but the skinlink creates a "field" that can be sniffed and hacked anyway (like SR4 hidden mode?). Sort of a middle ground between no-hackability (DNI) and the "hey everybody I leave a datatrail a mile wide everywhere I go!" phenomenon of always being online.

[Tzeentch]

Except that skinlink was a terrible idea to introduce in the first place, because it was just a simple checkbox: Are you an idiot? Yes/No.

Skinlinks effectively existed in Shadowrun first edition as part of the smartgun link system (SR1, p. 128). But it wasn't until the induction datajack (Man & Machine, p. 21) that they could be used for general I/O. This wasn't something anyone cared about until that little box in SR4, p. 224 and it's "Evil GM cackle" threatened player agency - and then said players wisely opted out of the brave wireless world.

I think this cloud enhanced stuff is a really interesting idea. Not too keen on the initial implementation and its transparent goal so that they get back to "Evil GM cackles" as he bricks your gear.

[hermit]

I think this cloud enhanced stuff is a really interesting idea. Not too keen on the initial implementation and its transparent goal so that they get back to "Evil GM cackles" as he bricks your gear.

Same here. If they weren't so clearly intended that you only get something worthwhile out of much of your gear while being live on the Matrix, this would be an interesting mechanic to make going open an option. As is, it seems designed to force you into universal hackability and basically check your character's viability as a self-sufficient PC at the door.