Melee & Martial arts, A slightly less dead horse to flog Options

[Udoshi]

Why has no one linked this yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmEPXXJ4sKw

Knock Knock!

[Umidori]

...kick ass kung fu ... janitor...

Don't mind if I do! Action starts around 0:30.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

Don't mind if I do! Action starts around 0:30.

~Umi

Do you one older

[Sunshine]

not older but even cheesier

the ULTIMATE Martial Art, hehe

[Sendaz]

not older but even cheesier

the ULTIMATE Martial Art, hehe

Hmmm... may have to argue in matters of cheese/camp with The Last Dragon

Definitely a combat adept with MA skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

But none of those are kung fu janitors!

Okay, Hong Kong Phooey is (aside from "quaintly" racist) technically a janitor who practices kung fu, but he doesn't fight in his janitor's outfit with his mop or broom!

Also, The Last Dragon is so terrigood. WHO'S DA MASTAH?!?

~Umi

[Sunshine]

Hmmm... may have to argue in matters of cheese/camp with The Last Dragon

Definitely a combat adept with MA skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And just a wee bit less funny than that! There's nothing like starting young...

love,
Sunshine

[Sendaz]

And just a wee bit less funny than that! There's nothing like starting young...

love,
Sunshine

Nope, not at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I shall call your Bushido babies and raise you a Kung Fu Cat and Stick Bear

[Sunshine]

Nope, not at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I shall call your Bushido babies and raise you a Kung Fu Cat and Stick Bear

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

It is so on right now! Babies rock!

[Sendaz]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

It is so on right now! Babies rock!

OMG!! That was so awesome, how have we never seen this ad before??

I must concede defeat.


Still,Kung Fu Cats Kick Butt!!

[Sunshine]

OMG!! That was so awesome, how have we never seen this ad before??

I must concede defeat.


Still,Kung Fu Cats Kick Butt!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif) There are some cats that kick butt though! Real Fu starts at arround 2:00 minutes.

love,
Sunshine

[Udoshi]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

[Sunshine]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

Very Nice, especially the interior design elemental effect, hehe

[Sendaz]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

So he not only defeats the temple master, he also helps set up the room for the next day's teaching session?

Classy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Umidori]

That was a fabulous clip, but it reminds me of one of my bigget beefs with the SR combat skills system.

So that staff fighting was pretty epic, and would be great inspiration for a mystic adept who uses the Blunt skill, right?

But what if you stick a blade on the end of the staff? Suddenly it's a spear, and you have to use the Blades skill instead of the Blunt skill, despite the weapon handling almost exactly the same as before.

I think SR5 should pull a Skyrim, getting rid of Blade and Blunt and introducing One-Handed and Two-Handed. Handling a sword isn't all that different than handling a club, swinging a sledgehammer around is largely identical to swinging a long axe, et cetera.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

The main Difference between a Sword and a Club is only which side you hit your Target with.

[Cochise]

The main Difference between a Sword and a Club is only which side you hit your Target with.

I'm certainly not inclined to start an old (and usually fruitless) argument ... so I'll just say: Depends on the type of sword you're using.

[Mach_Ten]

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO MY THREAD ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I need to call the national rail police to sort out this damn mess! ...

so, in answer to the question, no-one with the book can give us a heads up ... oh well .. I impatiently wait

[bannockburn]

From the Shadowrun4.com forums:

No, styles don't appear in the SR5 core rulebook, just the specialization for Unarmed skill. I imagine the actual styles might appear in the combat/weapon supplement, just as they did in SR4.

[Sunshine]

That was a fabulous clip, but it reminds me of one of my bigget beefs with the SR combat skills system.

So that staff fighting was pretty epic, and would be great inspiration for a mystic adept who uses the Blunt skill, right?

But what if you stick a blade on the end of the staff? Suddenly it's a spear, and you have to use the Blades skill instead of the Blunt skill, despite the weapon handling almost exactly the same as before.

I think SR5 should pull a Skyrim, getting rid of Blade and Blunt and introducing One-Handed and Two-Handed. Handling a sword isn't all that different than handling a club, swinging a sledgehammer around is largely identical to swinging a long axe, et cetera.

~Umi

You named it. I have the same trouble with a character with a pistol skill of 6 not having a clue where the bad end from a shotgun or machine pistol may be. But with melee its feels even worse. I have some martial arts and self defence training and some principles do not change that much when going from empty handed to a stick to a blade. On the other hand depending on the kind of stick or blade or unarmed combat style there can be worlds between them, especially with the more exotic forms. I went from crazy to mad with all the houserules we tried to implement this or that. WHenever that scar opens I have my mantra: "It is an abstract system, that tries to resolve in an abstract way the complexities of modern combat in all its aspects!" Repeat...

Damn my mantra is kaputt, got to go hit my punching bag now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sunshine]

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO MY THREAD ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Killing time while waiting impaitently... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Umidori]

I have some martial arts and self defence training and some principles do not change that much when going from empty handed to a stick to a blade. On the other hand depending on the kind of stick or blade or unarmed combat style there can be worlds between them, especially with the more exotic forms. I went from crazy to mad with all the houserules we tried to implement this or that.

I dunno, I think we could come up with a better fit for things.

Since houseruling this does end up very often not working elegantly, maybe... maybe instead of trying to shoehorn in the fixes on the Weapon Skill side of things, we should get more creative with the Martial Arts themselves?

Okay, so Johnny Ganger uses a knife. He's not really trained, but he's been in enough fights and been coached enough by his fellow gangers that he can make use of the tool for its intended purpose - cutting drekheads who need cut. Let's say his Blades skill is therefor a 2.

Now, my idea is that the basic Weapon Skill is just that - the basic forms of utilizing that general type of weapon; the basic ability to make effective use of the weapon. So Johnny's 2 in Blades means he is somewhat competant with not only knives, but also swords, axes and even somewhat more unusual bladed weapons like Forearm Snap Blades. They're all used roughly the same way, and we're allowing for abstraction, so his general skills are sufficient for most common bladed implements, and anything outside that category would end up a different Weapon Skill, possibly even an Exotic Melee skill. So Johnny can pick up an ice pick and still make holes in people, but if he wants to make proper use of a monofilament chainsaw or something, he'll need some training.

let's put Johnny to one side, for now, and instead look at Monk Wu, who is trained in the Shaolin Arts. His weapon of choice is a staff, but he's also pretty good with short sticks and other Blunt weapons, so let's say he has a Blunt Skill of 3. He's also equally good with a spear, though, because the forms for his staff training work just as well for spears. As the rules currently stand, Monk Wu has to buy up Blades 3 to be able to properly use the spear that is essentially no different than his staff in terms of the forms of Shaolin. And if it turns out that Monk Wu he has no real training with any other bladed weapons - he only knows how to use the spear, and that as an extension of his staff training - things become even more absurd.

So how to fix this odd disparity, such that Monk Wu can use his spear without having to pay a significant price in karma to also be trained in swords and axes and cyberspurs and other weapons outside his martial art's discipline? Simple! Change the bonuses from Martial Arts!

Martial Arts bonuses are currently kind of sad. Sure, you can get extra dice to certain actions with most styles, and a few styles allow for more impressive and powerful bonuses (especially the boosts to Unarmed damage), but overall the Melee bonuses are lackluster. I say we scrap them and start over, specifically with the goal of creating new, interesting replacements.

For example, one possible bonus could be to allow practitioner's of a specific martial art to use certain of their Weapon Skills interchangeably with certain weapons. So in the case of Monk Wu, since he has studied the proper Shaolin forms for staff usage, and those forms are compatible with spear usage, he could substitute his Blunt skill for his Blades skill when using a spear. Similarly, someone who has studied Arnis de Mano, which specializes in using clubs and knives, might allow practitioner's to choose between Blades or Blunt when using such weapons, allowing them to apply the same forms to two compatible weapons.

Let's go back to Johnny Ganger for a second, with his knives. Let's say his gang ends up working with a local Triad organization, and in the course of the two groups interacting, Johnny meets a Triad Enforcer who picked up Eskrima in the Phillipines. Johnny is impressed by this man's skills and pays his new contact to instruct him in the art. Johnny was already pretty good with Blades in general, but after about a month of training, he's getting the hang of things and learning how to make use of the martial art's specific forms, still favoring his knives. A week later, he gets jumped in an alleyway by some chipheads in need of a fix, but for whatever reason he doesn't have his blades on him. He grabs the nearest thing to hand - a couple of wooden dowels sticking out of a trash bag - and defends himself.

Dangit, these are Blunt weapons! Johnny doesn't have Blunt skills! ...but he does have Eskrima training, which allows him to employ the forms he uses for his Knives with these compatible one-handed clubs, meaning he can substitute his Blades skill while fighting with such weapons! Sure, he may not know the first thing about swinging around a sledgehammer or fighting with a staff - hence why his Blunt skill is 0 - but these sticks are close enough to his familiar knives that they still work just as well with his training (except for dealing Stun damage instead of Physical because they aren't bladed, or whatever).

Combine this with the One-Handed/Two-Handed system instead of Blades/Blunt and I think it has a good chance of working rather nicely.

~Umi