Exceptional Attribute: Mundane Only, ...Character Generation Houserule Options

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Some games are short. Other games span months. MUSHs are notorious for characters who last years. And years.

With that backdrop, the issue of Mundane vs. Awakened has always been a game balance concern of mine throughout the various editions of Shadowrun. Particularly as a player who has primarily played Street Samurai. And has seen PCs amass sometimes upwards of 500+ karma.

So.

I'm trying to consider subtle, non-obtrusive ways of maintaining 99% compatibility with the core SR 5 release, with no drastic overhauls of really anything, that help maintain some small incentives for non-awakened players.

One thought was the notion of restricting the Exceptional Attribute quality to Mundane Characters only. This seems to help accomplish that goal on three fronts: 1) It prevents Magic: 7 characters from leaving Chargen which, to my admittedly kneejerk reaction, seem problematic. 2) It allows some initial min/maxing in favor of the Mundane, that builds a small but noteworthy advantage. 3) It appears very simple to implement, with players easily gauging the impact, and the quality itself actually has 'With Gamemaster Approval' in the context of its treatment of the Magic Attribute.

Thoughts?

Note: If you vote "indifferent", your proposals are welcome. The criteria of a valid proposal is: Simple to implement, no drastic overhaul, operates inside of existing framework, minimal risk of unintended consequences.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Umidori]

How would this be handled in cases such as Latent Awakenings and the like?

~Umi

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

How would this be handled in cases such as Latent Awakenings and the like?

~Umi

With respect to latent awakenings, I anticipate allowing as close to the number zero as possible.

However, in the event that a player coordinates with staff ahead of time, and selects their priorities to appropriately provide a Magic Attribute, it may be possible to 'delay' that Magic Attribute until such a time as they've RP'd out their awakening.

That would likely need to be handled as a special case exception, and I find that the larger the playerbase, the more important it becomes to make 'special exceptions' follow the 'most restrictive' interpretation of policy, to avoid the perception of favoritism. Staff favoritism is a real poisonous topic, with very toxic effects.

So. Short Answer: It would apply to characters who will awaken after Chargen because characters who awaken after chargen will chargen as an Awakened Character who doesn't get to enjoy the full benefits of their points until later. This makes it a 'RP' incentive, and not a 'Powergame' incentive.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[thorya]

I prefer the other proposal currently up on the board. Give essence loss an equivalent magical resistance of some sort. This way, the mages can grow in power, but sam's have an inherent resistance to them (like other complex technological equipment).

[Critias]

Do so many of your players clamber all over themselves wanting to take Exceptional Attribute that limiting it this way is a meaningful way to curb their activity?

[Epicedion]

What's a Magic 7 character going to do, exactly?

[Umidori]

Intiate only eleven times, instead of twelve?

Although, they are still paying for the Quality... but unless the Quality costs more than the cost of your first Initiation (plus the relative value of the side benefit of leaving chargen with an extra point for spellcasting), it would actually end up as a discount.

~Umi

[RHat]

Isn't the balance issue generally thought to be with progression, and not with chargen? Seems to be going after the wrong thing here.

[Epicedion]

It's probably fine. There are easier ways to get dice, and it's not actually equivalent to Initiation.

[Umidori]

True, you don't get a metamagic.

So it roughly balances out in that regard, but I'd still need to see the cost. How exactly are Positive Qualities handled in SR5? That may have been answered in another thread, if so toss me a link please.

~Umi

[DoomFrog]

So I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I have a couple issues.

1. How does a rule about character creation help balance characters over a campaign?

2. Exceptional Attribute can only apply to Physical and Mental attributes, not special. So you can't have a started character with a 7 magic either way.

[RHat]

2. Exceptional Attribute can only apply to Physical and Mental attributes, not special. So you can't have a started character with a 7 magic either way.

It is explicitly permitted, in SR5, to apply Exceptional Attribute to Magic or Resonance.

[Sendaz]

If it is really an issue, then just house rule it that it only applies to the 'normal' stats and leave Magic and Resonance out.

[Shemhazai]

In any event, the rules say that this quality is subject to gamemaster approval.

In one of the previews, it said that a character with this paid 14 Karma for the Quality. (Preview 3, page 64, Rob the street samurai)

Characters pay for special attributes from the points in their Metatype priority and starting Karma. Awakened chracters get more Magic points from their Magic priority. Starting with a Magic of 7 means sacrificing Edge except in the following cases:

An awakened human:

Metatype A, Magic B (1 special attribute point wasted)
Metatype A, Magic C
Metatype B, Magic A (1 special attribute point wasted)

An awakened Elf:

Metatype A, Magic B
Metatype B, Magic A

All other possible ways of getting Magic 7 at chargen (that I know about) incur an Edge cost, which is measurable in Karma. So the total cost so far is 14 Karma plus the Karma cost of getting your Edge back to where it would be had you not chosen to do this. I'm not going to go through the chart to do this now for every possible case, but I think it offsets the benefit of doing this almost entirely if not more so in some cases.

The character is also missing out on the chance to get Lucky, or 14 points of positive qualities at the very least. That's potentially worth 28 Karma in-game.

Not to mention using up your top priority slots to do this.

What have you saved? You're now 35 Karma minus the cost richer at this point. The cost to initiate is not a factor, because my assumption is that a character will pay the 13 Karma for the metamagic in any case. If you don't make that assumption, then it's no metamagic for you while saving 48 Karma minus Edge cost minus positive quality opportunity cost.

Is this really a big deal? I think it would be a mistake to make a character like this. Just initiate as planned and if you really want the extra point, pay the 35 Karma. I don't think it's worth it to sacrifice so much at chargen. What's the best thing in the game you can do with the extra die and indirect spell damage point, or spell/spirit/enchanting Force maximum?

[hermit]

I really doubt that fixes the cyberware nerfs. Actually working on those nerfs instead of somehow introducing other mechanisms that cause more butterfly effects within the rules might be a better way to go.

[Sendaz]

All other possible ways of getting Magic 7 at chargen (that I know about) incur an Edge cost, which is measurable in Karma. So the total cost so far is 14 Karma plus the Karma cost of getting your Edge back to where it would be had you not chosen to do this. I'm not going to go through the chart to do this now for every possible case, but I think it offsets the benefit of doing this almost entirely if not more so in some cases.

The character is also missing out on the chance to get Lucky, or 14 points of positive qualities at the very least. That's potentially worth 28 Karma in-game.

Not to mention using up your top priority slots to do this.

What have you saved? You're now 35 Karma minus the cost richer at this point. The cost to initiate is not a factor, because my assumption is that a character will pay the 13 Karma for the metamagic in any case. If you don't make that assumption, then it's no metamagic for you while saving 48 Karma minus Edge cost minus positive quality opportunity cost.

Is this really a big deal? I think it would be a mistake to make a character like this. Just initiate as planned and if you really want the extra point, pay the 35 Karma. I don't think it's worth it to sacrifice so much at chargen. What's the best thing in the game you can do with the extra die and indirect spell damage point, or spell/spirit/enchanting Force maximum?

While on the subject of initiation, is this an option available at chargen to at least Init lvl 1?

[Sunshine]

I really doubt that fixes the cyberware nerfs. Actually working on those nerfs instead of somehow introducing other mechanisms that cause more butterfly effects within the rules might be a better way to go.

How about a "Rooted Soul" Quality (mundanes only) for an Essence of 7 (I do not know anything about "costs" yet advancement vs chargenwise to attach a "price tag" to this). That would be waaay more valuable as option for Samurai/ Cyberd Characters unnerfing them a little in the short and long run.

Is this really a big deal? I think it would be a mistake to make a character like this. Just initiate as planned and if you really want the extra point, pay the 35 Karma. I don't think it's worth it to sacrifice so much at chargen. What's the best thing in the game you can do with the extra die and indirect spell damage point, or spell/spirit/enchanting Force maximum?

Some of the thinking, If I did get this right, also wants to prohibit magical characters from going exceptional attribute on any drain resistance attribute. Going to Magic 7 in Chargen might not be as interesting point wise as to rack my elven shamanic social mystic adepts (aka the p0*nomancer) Charisma to 9 (assuming natural attribute values stayed the same). Which in Karma (old rules) would have cost me 45 kp just to get from 8 to 9 in addition to the exceptional attribute. In Chargen it would cost me 1 attribute point more plus the exceptional attribute cost. The diminishing returns of that ONE die at this price not figured in of course.

Again I would look at Power Focus cost (and functionality in 5th) in relation to the cost of exceptional attribute and magic 7, when the price is that steep, its the players choice to pay up for realizing his or her concept.

love,
Sunshine

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Isn't the balance issue generally thought to be with progression, and not with chargen? Seems to be going after the wrong thing here.

It is. The motivation was that progression advantages is hard coded into the system, and so the less intrusive means of addressing it is pushing back the point at which mundanes are surpassed by providing an additional place to min/max. Furthering the 'head start' that Mundanes receive, in addition to removing a location where Awakened Characters may min/max.

Definitely open to alternatives.

I really doubt that fixes the cyberware nerfs. Actually working on those nerfs instead of somehow introducing other mechanisms that cause more butterfly effects within the rules might be a better way to go.

For groups concerned with cyberware, working on that cyberware to modify it is likely the way they'll go. Unfortunately, I'm not clear that this can be done in a non-intrusive manner that is not somewhat arbitrary and/or heavy-handed.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[hermit]

How about a "Rooted Soul" Quality (mundanes only) for an Essence of 7 (I do not know anything about "costs" yet advancement vs chargenwise to attach a "price tag" to this). That would be waaay more valuable as option for Samurai/ Cyberd Characters unnerfing them a little in the short and long run.

Shadowrun doesn't need classes, and de facto this would make the streetsam a class. Also, it would boost technomancers unnecessarily. Though I can see a return of the Streetsam qualities from Way of the Samurai with the Cyber supplement (or 5E's Way-of PDF supplements maybe) to somehow alleviate the damage done to cybered characters by removing the halve-the-lower-rule.

Just reintroduce the halve-the-lower-rule, and you should be set. If necessary to rebalance, use SR4 essence cost, though from what we've seen so far, there is no big change there. Hey, you can even do this Way-of-the-Samurai style:

Augmented Character
Cost: 10 Karma
Prerequisites: Cyberware and bioware essence cost must total at least 5, and essence cost of either must total at least 1.
Description: Characters with this quality calculate the Essence Cost of bioware and cyberware implants (not nano- or geneware) as follows: Cyberware and bioware essence cost is tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half. For example, if a character has an Essence loss of 1.5 from cyberware and 2.5 from bioware, then the character’s Essence is 6 – 2.5 (full bioware) – 0.75 (half cyberware), or 2.75.

While this makes augmented characters more expensive at chargen, at least it un-gimps them somewhat.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Augmented Character
Cost: 10 Karma
Prerequisites: Cyberware and bioware essence cost must total at least 5, and essence cost of either must total at least 1.
Description: Characters with this quality calculate the Essence Cost of bioware and cyberware implants (not nano- or geneware) as follows: Cyberware and bioware essence cost is tracked separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from Essence in full, with the other deducting at half. For example, if a character has an Essence loss of 1.5 from cyberware and 2.5 from bioware, then the character’s Essence is 6 – 2.5 (full bioware) – 0.75 (half cyberware), or 2.75.

One of the primary reasons that that appears attractive to me is that it allows the Samurai to gain a bit of vertical parity through karma expenditure. That said, I'd be concerned about how it interacts with the Cyberware/Bioware prices that I'm assuming have been already been fine tuned based on internal play tests.

Is the intent that it operates on base essence costs? I.E, prior to being modified by Alpha/Beta/Delta modifiers?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[hermit]

It is operating after Essence modifiers from ware, it is the net total cost. Chosen like that because it was that way in SR4, and the lack of this rule makes cyberware much, much less attractive than it was in SR4 (where this was standard for all implants). As a quality, there's the bonus that it cannot be applied to mages, so cybermages are marginally toned down. Fiddling with requirement essence scores may be in order. Maybe essence/bio cost of at least 2. Also, if bought in-game, it would create an essence hole; that would also need fine tuning I think. It'S a rough sketch, not a finished house rule.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It is operating after Essence modifiers from ware, it is the net total cost. Chosen like that because it was that way in SR4, and the lack of this rule makes cyberware much, much less attractive than it was in SR4 (where this was standard for all implants). As a quality, there's the bonus that it cannot be applied to mages, so cybermages are marginally toned down. Fiddling with requirement essence scores may be in order. Maybe essence/bio cost of at least 2. Also, if bought in-game, it would create an essence hole; that would also need fine tuning I think. It'S a rough sketch, not a finished house rule.

It certainly has a strong foundation. As a quality it is fairly easy to implement. It also has historical precedent, making it fairly intuitive. All in all, I'm inclined to like it. I'm just... You know, apprehensive about being invasive to the core rules, and incurring unintended consequences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Re: Can't be applied to Mages -- What mechanism prevents a Mage from taking it? Simply the additional Karma cost that disincentivizes taking it?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[hermit]

I'm just... You know, apprehensive about being invasive to the core rules, and incurring unintended consequences.

Sure, I'm also inclined to read through the actual rules first, though I am not optimistic that things will be balanced out enough to not make cybered characters enormously less viable across the board. It's an idea to re-balance them, and a less invasive one than giving them more essence or making them magic-repellant bricks, or so I'd hope, by tinkering only with essence cost and not with ... everything.

Re: Can't be applied to Mages -- What mechanism prevents a Mage from taking it? Simply the additional Karma cost that disincentivizes taking it?

That they need to expend a lot of Essence, yes. Though maybe a clear "cannot be taken by characters with either a Magic or Resonance attribute above 0" would enable it for burnouts.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Sure, I'm also inclined to read through the actual rules first, though I am not optimistic that things will be balanced out enough to not make cybered characters enormously less viable across the board. It's an idea to re-balance them, and a less invasive one than giving them more essence or making them magic-repellant bricks, or so I'd hope, by tinkering only with essence cost and not with ... everything.

Controlled, small, finely tuned tinkering is best. Totally agree. And essence is certainly a viable place to operate.

That they need to expend a lot of Essence, yes. Though maybe a clear "cannot be taken by characters with either a Magic or Resonance attribute above 0" would enable it for burnouts.

I think a restriction on Magic/Resonance like that, as opposed to a total cost of Cyber/Bio, may be a preferred method. As one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of dealing w/ Samurai is you always beg the question: "Does this just make the CyberMage better, in the end?"

I thought SR 3 addressed this elegantly by allowing Essence + Body Index to reach a 9 point total, prior to introducing over stress. This was the equivalent of 9 points of magic loss before an Awakened Character could say: "Yes, I can do that too. Plus have Magic." And while 9 points of Magic Loss covered by initiation was possible in theory, I always found it was largely impractical enough not to worry about balancing against it.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[hermit]

I think a restriction on Magic/Resonance like that, as opposed to a total cost of Cyber/Bio, may be a preferred method. As one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of dealing w/ Samurai is you always beg the question: "Does this just make the CyberMage better, in the end?"

Unfortunatly, yes. The route to cover this by lowering essence cost notably leads to better cybermages and little else. Which is why I think taking out the 1+1/2 rule is such a big mistake, probably the biggest in what we've seen in the rules so far. Making it dependent on the character not haviing a magic or resonance attribute, on the other hand, takes cybermages down a bit compared to the sam, at least.

I thought SR 3 addressed this elegantly by allowing Essence + Body Index to reach a 9 point total, prior to introducing over stress. This was the equivalent of 9 points of magic loss before an Awakened Character could say: "Yes, I can do that too. Plus have Magic." And while 9 points of Magic Loss covered by initiation was possible in theory, I always found it was largely impractical enough not to worry about balancing against it.

Much as it screwed with many characters from SR2, I liked that rule best (with SR4's a close successor). SR3 numbed that down with their Errata later, where bioware only caused 1/2 bioindex Magic loss, and introducing overstress.