Rules help! (Spirits and powers) - SR3 Options

[Noll]

Hello fellow dumpshockers, we are currently playing an SR3 campaign and I am having some problems in understanding few Spirits rules. Here's what I ask you:

1. Shamans don't have to pay anything in order to conjure spirits? (They don't waste materials like Hermetics do for elementals?)
2. We are very, very confused by the Search Power. The base rules are non existant, and the MitS rules are quite confusing. So, if I order a spirit to search for someone, what's exatly the mechanics and the limitations a spirit has in doing so? And also, if I were a Houngan, my spirits can't manifest, so the Search power, being Physical, can't be used by LOAs? (unless possessing?).
3. If I order a spirit to use the critter power "confusion" against a target, that target does not have any way to resist/avoid the power? What are exatly the rules/mechanics to use a critter power against a target? How does he resists? If I use a MANA type power, can a LOA spirit influence a living being without manifesting? (Like with confusion?)


Thanks in advance for your advices, we really, really like SR3 but sometimes it's very hard to understand some rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Moirdryd]

1) that's right Noll. But they can only summon a spirit of the appropriate type in the appropriate place. Shaman cannot bind spirits and any services still owed by the spirit are lost come sunrise or sunset. Also Spirits of nature cannot leave their "domain", so a field spirit cannot enter a city or go down a highway etc.

2) the base rules are in the SR3 main book and Critters. The expanded rules are in MitS. If you order a spirit to use Search for a person or object that search is limited to it's domain (if it has multiple domains, the one it was summoned in). Under the basic rules the roll is opposed Essence(x2) vs INT for a living target or Essence(x2) vs TN (object resistance) straight roll for an object. The time that takes is pretty much upto the GM.
The expanded rules turn the above into an area (within Domain) of upto 10,000 sq meters per point of Force (eg 40k sq for Force 4) for every doubling (or part thereof) of this area you add +2 to the base TN (4 for a living creature or the Objects Resustence #). It take 20minutes for each full Area (or part thereof) so 20 minutes for a F4 spirit to search a 40k sq meter area, 40 minutes for 40,001-80,000sq meter area etc. The spirit only gets 1 roll at the Start of the duration and will search until the time is up (or ordered to perform a differant service).
If you need to know how quickly they successfully find a target (especially one that may not be there for a whole 20mins etc) just use the classic mechanic of dividing Time by Extra Successes just like for Perm spells ect. It's not a book rule for the power but it makes sense. Other assume it takes the full time of the search.
In both cases Concealment adds its caster's Essence to the search TN's.
The Loa must indeed be Possessing to use a Physical Power, however while they cannot materialise fully they can manifest so I would allow them to use Search (and any other 'sensory' based powers) in that state.

3) Yep. You can use it from astral, along with any other power, and there is no Resistence against it, the target is at a straight +E to your action rolls and rolling WP to make descisions to do things while the power effects you. Pretty nasty. But don't forget it costs a service to use the power (complex action for spirit) and it costs a service for each turn sustaining the power. So it burns out pretty quick.

[Sendaz]

1) that's right Noll. But they can only summon a spirit of the appropriate type in the appropriate place. Shaman cannot bind spirits and any services still owed by the spirit are lost come sunrise or sunset. Also Spirits of nature cannot leave their "domain", so a field spirit cannot enter a city or go down a highway etc.

Just curious as I do not have the book yet, but the preview said shamans seemed to typically summon rather than bind, but does this mean they can not bind at all?

Am asking as in previous edition bound spirits could provide the normal services PLUS special ones like Aid Sorcery and Spell sustaining, so if the shamans can not bind at all is there an alternate means for a shaman to gain these benefits? Like making a pact with the spirit or other means to negotiate for the special services?

Ok, that sounded like pimping for spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Moirdryd]

This is an SR3 duscussion Sendaz, not SR5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Sorry, thought I was in the questions for 5th thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif)

[Noll]

1) that's right Noll. But they can only summon a spirit of the appropriate type in the appropriate place. Shaman cannot bind spirits and any services still owed by the spirit are lost come sunrise or sunset. Also Spirits of nature cannot leave their "domain", so a field spirit cannot enter a city or go down a highway etc.

2) the base rules are in the SR3 main book and Critters. The expanded rules are in MitS. If you order a spirit to use Search for a person or object that search is limited to it's domain (if it has multiple domains, the one it was summoned in). Under the basic rules the roll is opposed Essence(x2) vs INT for a living target or Essence(x2) vs TN (object resistance) straight roll for an object. The time that takes is pretty much upto the GM.
The expanded rules turn the above into an area (within Domain) of upto 10,000 sq meters per point of Force (eg 40k sq for Force 4) for every doubling (or part thereof) of this area you add +2 to the base TN (4 for a living creature or the Objects Resustence #). It take 20minutes for each full Area (or part thereof) so 20 minutes for a F4 spirit to search a 40k sq meter area, 40 minutes for 40,001-80,000sq meter area etc. The spirit only gets 1 roll at the Start of the duration and will search until the time is up (or ordered to perform a differant service).
If you need to know how quickly they successfully find a target (especially one that may not be there for a whole 20mins etc) just use the classic mechanic of dividing Time by Extra Successes just like for Perm spells ect. It's not a book rule for the power but it makes sense. Other assume it takes the full time of the search.
In both cases Concealment adds its caster's Essence to the search TN's.
The Loa must indeed be Possessing to use a Physical Power, however while they cannot materialise fully they can manifest so I would allow them to use Search (and any other 'sensory' based powers) in that state.

3) Yep. You can use it from astral, along with any other power, and there is no Resistence against it, the target is at a straight +E to your action rolls and rolling WP to make descisions to do things while the power effects you. Pretty nasty. But don't forget it costs a service to use the power (complex action for spirit) and it costs a service for each turn sustaining the power. So it burns out pretty quick.

Thank you a lot for the info, it was really helpful!