why was the Power Level raised?, SR5 chars stronger than SR4 chars Options

[Makki]

some quick math to prove my statement:
1. We will compare to BP-gen and Karma-gen from 4th, but I will use a unit I call SR4-Karmagen-equivalent KGE
2. sr4 karmagen was 750 karma or roughly 450-650 KGE when using BP-system from core.
3. sr5 priority is up to 987 KGE (source) and on average something like 750-800 KGE for well-rounded chars
4. on top of that, you get 25 "karma" (which is not real karma, but something that accidently has the same name as the experience mechanic in sr while not having any mechanical resemblance whatsoever)
5. with this you can buy qualities that are much cheaper than before: Ambidextrous 4 "karma instead of 20 KGE, Exceptional Attribute 14 "karma" instead of 40 KGE. I admit, negative qualities are probably cheaper, too.
6. Prices for contacts have been halved also and you get free contact points (which was only a common houserule in sr4)


In total, we can expect looking at characters that can potentially be twice as competent as sr4 core BP chars. Measured in KGE, of course, not dice.
any idea why? It's supposed to be more deadly, isn't that a contradicting statement?

[phlapjack77]

My first thought about this was to remember the post JH made about adjusting the karma for starting chars in SR4 to 1000. So maybe the design goal all along was more powerful characters even in 4th. Or maybe some other less charitable interpretations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Yeah do remember that the official position is to use karmagen with 1000 karma after the attribute cost raise.
So actually SR5 priority comes to less amount of karma and do note that to get even that high KGE numbers you have to take E in recources that gets you pretty much nothing gear wise.
Also with price hike on ware even recources A don't get you as much stuff as you can get in SR4.

So infact SR5 isn't even close to Power level of SR4 karmagen and i know for a fact that i have to cut back on attributes,skills and gear when remaking my 1000 karmagen cambat face build.

[Backgammon]

Did you play some games before declaring the power level raised?

[Glyph]

At first glance, it looks like a higher power level. But everything also got hit with the nerf bat. Street samurai have less extra actions compared to everyone else, have higher prices for augmentations, and are now vulnerable to being disabled by having their 'ware hacked. Mages have direct spell damage severely reduced and have higher Drain all around. Metahumans cost more, either in higher priorities, less special Attribute points, or both. Certain combos, such as augmented adepts, are a lot less viable because having two high priority slots for magic and resources will curtail other areas. And the game mechanic of limits has been introduced.

And higher power levels usually are more deadly, especially in Shadowrun, where it emphasizes the "glass cannon" aspect of the game. For example, armor values have been raised, but so has firearm damage, and melee damage doesn't halve Strength in its calculations any longer. So you might think "Sweet! My armored jacket gives me 12 armor now! But that is just 1-2 successes on average, not enough to offset the higher base damage for most attacks.

[DireRadiant]

It's not just karma and attributes and skills that you need to analyze in the system.

The dice ranges have been modeled differently and the mechanics adjusted as well.

What you think of a 12 or 18 dice pool may not be as effective as you experience in SR4 out of chargen.

The base range in SR5 is 18 offensive DP against a 12 Defensive DP, and that still gets you to where it takes a two or three shot to take an opponent out. In addition the variance in the total dice pool is smaller, and the defensive pools also scale so you have the same relative ratios. Also, the top end Offensive pool doesn't overwhelm as low end defensive pool as much in SR5 as you got in SR4.

Everything got Nerfed or Buffed to bring in line with the same general scale.

[Neurosis]

some quick math to prove my statement:
1. We will compare to BP-gen and Karma-gen from 4th, but I will use a unit I call SR4-Karmagen-equivalent KGE
2. sr4 karmagen was 750 karma or roughly 450-650 KGE when using BP-system from core.
3. sr5 priority is up to 987 KGE (source) and on average something like 750-800 KGE for well-rounded chars
4. on top of that, you get 25 "karma" (which is not real karma, but something that accidently has the same name as the experience mechanic in sr while not having any mechanical resemblance whatsoever)
5. with this you can buy qualities that are much cheaper than before: Ambidextrous 4 "karma instead of 20 KGE, Exceptional Attribute 14 "karma" instead of 40 KGE. I admit, negative qualities are probably cheaper, too.
6. Prices for contacts have been halved also and you get free contact points (which was only a common houserule in sr4)


In total, we can expect looking at characters that can potentially be twice as competent as sr4 core BP chars. Measured in KGE, of course, not dice.
any idea why? It's supposed to be more deadly, isn't that a contradicting statement?

In spite of all this evidence, you have it backwards. SR5 characters are MUCH weaker than SR4 characters in most ways that matter. Too exhausted to explain why, play the game some more and you'll see what I mean. Here's the ULTRA-SHORT version:

For mages, the elimination of "real" direct combat spells took them down several pegs.

For cybered characters and hackers/deckers, the massive price hike on 'ware and 'decks greatly, greatly cuts down character options. Prices have increased, and starting Nuyen has not proportionally increased.

In general, things that once granted bonus dice now modify limits.

In the end, dice is a better measurement of character power than the as-far-as-I-can-tell-you-literally-just-made-it-up? unit "KGE".

[binarywraith]

SR4 Karma and SR5 Karma are in no way equivalent in power level. Several systems have been re-modeled to make the values represent different power levels than they did in SR4.

In short, you're comparing apples and oil filters.

[Ryu]

It very much depends on how your typical SR4 character looks like, and what your group will consider efficient in SR5. It is well possible that lethality goes down, and that might be good or bad for the game regardless of developer intent. Plus a true comparison of power levels is simply not possible based on only the source book.

IMO the (relative) power of fresh characters goes down. You MIGHT have more skill, but everyone and their dog has 6+ base defense dice now. A bit of Agility plus a skill of 1 (+spec) won´t cut it anymore.

[KCKitsune]

My first thought about this was to remember the post JH made about adjusting the karma for starting chars in SR4 to 1000. So maybe the design goal all along was more powerful characters even in 4th. Or maybe some other less charitable interpretations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you have a link for that quote handy? I would like to see it in it's full context. Thank you in advance.

[Glyph]

Do you have a link for that quote handy? I would like to see it in it's full context. Thank you in advance.

Here you go.

[phlapjack77]

Do you have a link for that quote handy? I would like to see it in it's full context. Thank you in advance.

There's the link above, and here's the discussion on DS.