Uncouth/Uneducated just as bad as ever, apparently they didn't learn the first time... Options

[Jaid]

So, some of you may remember some fairly extended debates that essentially boiled down to certain negative qualities being:

a) horrendously crippling to an extent that is completely absurd
b) completely different mechanically than the way they are described

uncouth and uneducated were two examples of such skills. in case you were wondering, they're still horrendously crippling, and they still don't make any sense.

an uncouth individual cannot default on social skills (ie cannot lie and is not even aware of the possibility of lying, cannot negotiate and is not even aware of the possibility of negotiating... ie can only accept initial offer or reject it - cannot intimidate people, cannot order people around, cannot understand the concept of either of those things happening, etc...) unless they learn the skill (which costs double, and in very short order will cost substantially more just to be able to use the skills that they should be able to use than it would have cost them to just not have the quality in the first place).

and uneducated once again means that you essentially don't know anything about anything. if you are not specifically trained in it, you don't even have the faintest idea of how anything works. you're not uneducated, you are anti-educated... you would have to have spent your entire life being brainwashed with all kinds of inaccurate information, and while that makes for a slightly amusing character concept it really doesn't make any sense at all for a standard quality to exist.

what's worse is how much you gain for these massive crippling flaws. 14 karma for uncouth (about 1/3 of what it was worth in SR4, and it was an outstandingly stupid idea to go near it even when it was 20 BP) and 8 karma for uneducated. seriously? 8 karma? what is this, some kind of sick joke? these qualities are like some kind of cruel noob trap designed to destroy the gaming experience of any sucker foolish enough to actually pick them up thinking that it will be anything remotely like what it says in the description.

why catalyst? why? there have been several threads where these qualities were discussed. what could possibly have possessed you to think that someone who is incapable of even imagining the possibility of lying or being lied to could ever be a viable human being, let alone a shadowrunner?

about the only good thing i can say is that at least infirm is gone. i would have preferred to see it merely changed to something reasonable (given that previously, the quality meant you could not jump, climb, swim, etc. not just that you couldn't do them well, mind you - you literally couldn't do them at all unless you were specially trained in those activities, making it more reasonable would not have been difficult). but i'd rather see it gone than see it come back exactly the same.

edit: and dagnabbit, i've just had my attention drawn to the absurdity of incompetence. it now applies to a full skill group, which is absolutely awful, and is only worth 5 karma. really? 5 karma? i could vaguely see some skill groups making sense for this, but what skill group is worth 5 karma? the only way this could ever *not* a complete disaster is if you're choosing it in something you would never in a million years use anyways.

[GiraffeShaman]

I just read Uncouth. Wow, I really can't believe this. The way it's written leads me to me to believe such an individual wouldn't survive in the shadows. They might barely survive as a ganger. Uneducated isn't great, but not nearly as unplayable as Uncouth. I've known people that are Uncouth as described in 5th edition, and bad things happen to them, such as being fired. That can often mean a bullet to the brain in the shadows.

[Tzeentch]

I hadn't really read that section until I saw this thread. LOL. Yeah, I see what you mean. I suppose they are supposed to be obviously terrible in every way as an RP thing?

[Veggiesama]

Had an uneducated, illiterate hillbilly adept in a game I played. He was amazing at driving a truck, but damned if he knew how they worked. (Needless to say, he didn't get benefit from AR). It's not that he's incapable of fathoming the mere idea of fixing a car--it just wouldn't occur to him that he had to stop if his wheel blew out. Assuming the car eventually came to a stop due to the forces of nature, he might realize something looked off when he stepped out to take a smoke (let's call it a Perception test). "Ahh, sheet, done fucked up the wheel again."

Replacing the wheel would be an act undertaken with a stick or slamming it fruitlessly with a wrench he found in the back seat. Calling for help on his commlink was out of the question, since he needed to make a Logic test to simply figure out how to work the icons and call his friend. (Hacker buddy eventually wrote him a custom Accessibility-style program with big friendly pictures. That allowed him limited access but doing new tasks that involved any sort of technical creativity or adaptability--such as adding a new contact or changing an existing contact's number--was out of the question).

Not realistic at all, but it was fun and added a lot of flavor to our game. The game's a team effort after all, and the character's inexpertise was problematic, but not crippling.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

To put this in perspective, both of these qualities put together are worth less than having a corporate-born SIN. Good Lord.

[FuelDrop]

To put this in perspective, both of these qualities put together are worth less than having a corporate-born SIN. Good Lord.

Unplayable < SINner? Hmmm. That might be a bit of an issue.

[Temperance]

I can think of a few concepts those crippling effects might be fine for, as well as some games. For a default run of the mill SR game, it's not so useful, I grant. Reminds me of the villain's brother in Lockout. Suicidally stupid. Kept alive simply by the intervention of his brother. So a joint concept with another PC is a good start for something like that.

"Remind me why we use him?"
"He's good at blowing shit up, remember."
"But he's a moron, otherwise."
"Yeah, but he's my brother."

That all said, I'd never use either one.

-Temperance

[ElFenrir]

Actually, I had found another quality that I disagree with how it was handled. Quoted from the notes of the review i'm working on(for the record, the majority of this review is POSITIVE, but that doesn't mean I'm not without an issue here and there.)

Sensitive System they seemed to want to try to bring back the 'old way' IRT mages...but I'm not sure if I agree with this, since in SR2-3, it made more sense since magically active folks were much less likely to cyber up in those days, but in the later years, even the magically active have found the want to get cyberware, as well-thus I'm not sure if that's needed. Not taking 'ware is a real decision for a magically active person these days, and thus I don't think they needed an extra disadvantage above and beyond it. In fact, it hurts them DOUBLE now, and they don't even get more for it(they have the Drain drawback AND the double Essence loss drawback and they don't get more Karma for that? That doesn't seem fair to me.)

[Temperance]

In fact, it hurts them DOUBLE now, and they don't even get more for it(they have the Drain drawback AND the double Essence loss drawback and they don't get more Karma for that? That doesn't seem fair to me.)

Makes sense to me. Fair doesn't enter into the picture. Negative qualities are optional. You aren't forced to take sensitive system. Previously it was free points for the cyber-free mage. Now the loophole is closed and there's a cost to those points. Actually, this is a good thing. Now sensitive system is a meaningful choice for the cyber-free mage, instead of a no-brainer.

For the cybered mage? To me, sensitive system was never a choice. So I'd find a different flaw. Which is what SR5 is telling you now.

-Temperance

[Elfenlied]

Actually, I had found another quality that I disagree with how it was handled. Quoted from the notes of the review i'm working on(for the record, the majority of this review is POSITIVE, but that doesn't mean I'm not without an issue here and there.)

Sensitive System they seemed to want to try to bring back the 'old way' IRT mages...but I'm not sure if I agree with this, since in SR2-3, it made more sense since magically active folks were much less likely to cyber up in those days, but in the later years, even the magically active have found the want to get cyberware, as well-thus I'm not sure if that's needed. Not taking 'ware is a real decision for a magically active person these days, and thus I don't think they needed an extra disadvantage above and beyond it. In fact, it hurts them DOUBLE now, and they don't even get more for it(they have the Drain drawback AND the double Essence loss drawback and they don't get more Karma for that? That doesn't seem fair to me.)

The fact that bioware is also completely off limits makes this quality even unviable for bioware focused streetsam, who frequently took this quality in the old edition.

[Temperance]

The fact that bioware is also completely off limits makes this quality even unviable for bioware focused streetsam, who frequently took this quality in the old edition.

Good point. I noticed that, but I was unaware that bioware focused street sams frequently took the quality. I've just never had that experience.

-Temperance

[Elfenlied]

Good point. I noticed that, but I was unaware that bioware focused street sams frequently took the quality. I've just never had that experience.

-Temperance

Given how blatantly overpowered cyberware scanners were in 4e (don't know about 5e yet), a bioware focused Streetsam generally had less direct power, but had the advantage of passing most checkpoints without a problem.

[Temperance]

Given how blatantly overpowered cyberware scanners were in 4e (don't know about 5e yet), a bioware focused Streetsam generally had less direct power, but had the advantage of passing most checkpoints without a problem.

Ah! Different gaming paradigms entirely then. For my table, scanners haven't been all that prevalent and I don't remember us ever being off guard.

-Temperance

[Sendaz]

Ah! Different gaming paradigms entirely then. For my table, scanners haven't been all that prevalent and I don't remember us ever being off guard.

-Temperance

So your players never travelled outside the city except by driving I take it then. And even then you had chances of being checked.

Again it varies by gaming table, but I have noticed a distinct loss of significance of the R and F rating for gear among quite a few groups.

Granted most of that gear is exactly what the runners need, cyber and otherwise, but the risk it entails in possessing these is rarely played up much and it does lose some of the flavour in a way.

Not so edgey I guess.

[binarywraith]

So your players never travelled outside the city except by driving I take it then. And even then you had chances of being checked.

Again it varies by gaming table, but I have noticed a distinct loss of significance of the R and F rating for gear among quite a few groups.

Granted most of that gear is exactly what the runners need, cyber and otherwise, but the risk it entails in possessing these is rarely played up much and it does lose some of the flavour in a way.

Not so edgey I guess.

I generally use it as a roadbump when the runners need to sneak into Corp Country. They usually operate in the Barrens, which is nearly a free-fire zone, but out in Beaver Cleaverville, they pay more attention.

[White Buffalo]

Makes sense to me. Fair doesn't enter into the picture. Negative qualities are optional.

Except when the companion book comes out and people want to play fairies and shape shifters and uneducated comes along as a requirement. I have fun picking on the fairy in my group now just trying to answer his com. It'll get allot worse with this wording.

[Sendaz]

Beaver Cleaverville,

I am so gonna use that now to describe some areas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ElFenrir]

There's 'Fair', and there's 'Balanced.' It doesn't necessarily have to be fair(though I prefer it is, negative qualities and all), but IMO, it should be balanced. It doesn't feel balanced to me...but, once again, I suppose this is a case of different tables, different experiences.

For us, mages with cyber was a very real decision. It was rarer when we *didn't* have a mage that took some cyber. But yeah, definitely a case of different experiences coming in, for us, it was never free points anyway.

But, well, that's the nice thing about houserules, they can fix things that one doesn't like.

(My personal favorite incarnation of it was the older version where it was worth more to a non magically active character, but magically active folks could still get something for it but they did likely want to give up augmentations. Plus, sometimes what a magical person decided at the beginning, wasn't what the magical person wanted to do later on, and then they'd be saddled with buying off the flaw for even more resources if later they were like 'damn, Joe can sling spells and now thanks to that muscle augmentation, he hits even harder. But my body doesn't like cyberware too much...wonder if there's something I can do to fix that?')

[Temperance]

So your players never travelled outside the city except by driving I take it then. And even then you had chances of being checked.

It's funny, in every SR game previous to my current one, we've always stayed in Seattle (with small driving side trips to the neighboring territories). I'd like to see more world hopping, but my fellow players and usual GMs are homebodies. I mean that literally. Since we all live in the Seattle area, it makes for easy references.

The current game is a nice change of pace. We're in Miami, Florida. And we work for Lone Star's vice* squad, so security checkpoints generally aren't a problem. (Yes, the Miami Vice jokes pop up all the time.) There's something to be said for being quasi-dirty cops. Well, they are. I'm playing their criminal stooge.

* - Not sure if they have the contract canonically, but that's what the GM is running with to emphasize the racist cop vs city/criminal tension. While the characters aren't racist, management and fellow cops are.

-Temperance

[Sendaz]

Sounds like a fun setting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sooooo... who gets to be Tubbs? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ElFenrir]

You know, the review I'm whomping together is kinda in two parts; the second part I'm making up characters of all 3 types(Street, Regular, and Prime) and going over how I feel they worked out. (Our own 'prime' will work great with the prime, I think, though we do nix the Availability limits period and run with the 'just make sense' rule, but I'm not going to make a houseruled character for a review.) Since the Sensitive System discussion, I realized the last time any of us played a magically active character with zero cyber was...well my friend had one in 2006, and I have my Bear shifter. So for the 'Normal' character I'm actually making up an adept with no cyber, simply because I haven't done it in awhile. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[GiraffeShaman]

The current game is a nice change of pace. We're in Miami, Florida. And we work for Lone Star's vice* squad, so security checkpoints generally aren't a problem. (Yes, the Miami Vice jokes pop up all the time.) There's something to be said for being quasi-dirty cops. Well, they are. I'm playing their criminal stooge.

Careful, you're in Michael Weston's stomping grounds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

Not really too broken up about this. SR3 was just fine without Qualities in the core rulebook, and when they got added into the default ruleset in SR4 the result was an endless wave of min-maxed stupidness. I'm glad they made Incompetent worse - as it was before, it was basically free points. Yeah, I'm incompetent at automotive repair...big whoop, I'm a street sam.

Drawbacks should be inconvenient, and drawbacks work a lot of points should be *really* inconvenient.

[Elfenlied]

Not really too broken up about this. SR3 was just fine without Qualities in the core rulebook, and when they got added into the default ruleset in SR4 the result was an endless wave of min-maxed stupidness. I'm glad they made Incompetent worse - as it was before, it was basically free points. Yeah, I'm incompetent at automotive repair...big whoop, I'm a street sam.

Drawbacks should be inconvenient, and drawbacks work a lot of points should be *really* inconvenient.

Incompetent was only good because the majority of game tables neglect the notoriety rules.

[ElFenrir]

I do think that's another issue with some qualities. Now, when it comes to the sides of 'qualities or no', I'm firmly on the side of 'qualities', and firmly on the side of qualities costing-and granting-points, no two ways about it. That being said, I do think some qualities work better with some of the oft-not-used rules into play. I mean I'll be honest-we often only used the PA/Notoriety rules under extreme circumstances. A table that followed them to the letter would likely indeed see Incompetence a bit less. (For the record, I tend to be a bit of a bigger fan of qualities that are a little more cut and dry; Allergies, Addictions, things of that nature.)