[X] My Assistant

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Mystic Adepts are, by their nature, hybrids. By choosing to dabble in both magic and adept powers, you become more versatile at the cost of being less powerful in either field.

So, naturally enough, a full mage will be better at the casting spells side of things, and a full adept will be better at the amazing physical feats side of things. Does that make a Mystic Adept less powerful in each respective field? Absolutely. Does that make a Mystic Adept less viable? No, not at all. It's a lot like the relationship with magic and augmentation. Do you want cyberware, or do you want spells/adept powers? Or do you maybe want a little bit of both?

As it stands, 5E Mystic Adepts get all the benefits of being a mage as well as all the benefits of being an adept. If the same was true for augmented magicians, people would be up in arms over it, and rightly so. Making a properly balanced hybrid character requires meaningful tradeoffs. If you don't like those tradeoffs, don't play a hybrid character. But if you're okay with compromising, then you can make a perfectly viable, and often quite interesting, character.

~Umi

Excellent summary.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[RHat]

My approach to this subject, as posted on the other forums:

New power points cost a Mystic Adept 1.5 karma per point of Magic rating, and they must pay for the increased karma total of their existing power points when raising magic, such that if you have 6 points and raise Magic to 7, you pay 47 Karma instead of 35.

Well, the exact multiplier can change, but let's look at the numbers.

________|0 PP|1 PP|2 PP|3 PP|4 PP|5 PP|6 PP|7 PP|8 PP|9 PP|10 PP|
Magic 1_|__5_|__7_|__8_|_17_|_27_|_40_|_54_|_71_|_88_|108_|129__|
Magic 2_|_15_|_18_|_21_|_24_|_34_|_46_|_60_|_76_|_94_|113_|134__|
Magic 3_|_30_|_35_|_39_|_44_|_48_|_60_|_73_|_89_|106_|126_|146__|
Magic 4_|_50_|_56_|_62_|_68_|_74_|_80_|_93_|108_|125_|144_|165__|
Magic 5_|_75_|_83_|_90_|_98_|105_|113_|120_|135_|151_|170_|190__|
Magic 6_|105_|114_|123_|132_|141_|150_|159_|168_|184_|202_|222__|
Magic 7_|147_|158_|168_|179_|189_|200_|210_|221_|231_|249_|268__|
Magic 8_|196_|208_|220_|232_|244_|256_|268_|280_|292_|304_|323__|
Magic 9_|252_|266_|279_|293_|306_|320_|333_|347_|360_|374_|387__|
Magic 10|315_|330_|345_|360_|375_|390_|405_|420_|435_|450_|465__|

These numbers are factored assuming maximum discount on initiation. Note that Mystads, under this structure, pay an exorbitantly higher price for Power Points than Physads, and pay a great deal more than Mages to increase Magic even if they only ever have 6 power points.

[Psikerlord]

i havent read mystic adepts yetbut ifthey are too good we just wont use them at all in our game. noone ever played one before so no real loss.

[Thanee]

Well, compared to a Magician (assuming Magic 6), they get no Astral Projection, and lose 12 Karma, but get 6 Power Points worth of Adept powers (one of which will likely be used to gain Astral Perception) instead. And later on, they get a free PP whenever they raise Magic in addition to everything else it does.

Bye
Thanee

[Psikerlord]

Well, compared to a Magician (assuming Magic 6), they get no Astral Projection, and lose 12 Karma, but get 6 Power Points worth of Adept powers (one of which will likely be used to gain Astral Perception) instead. And later on, they get a free PP whenever they raise Magic in addition to everything else it does.

Bye
Thanee

uh-huh yep that sounds stupid good. first house rule then will be no mystic adepts at our table, i suspect.

[RHat]

Of course, it's been acknowledges that the 2 Karma bit is in error.

[Thanee]

Even with 5 Karma apiece it is way too cheap, though.

Bye
Thanee

[Lurker37]

As I read it, buying power points with karma is only available at character creation. If you raise the cost, that's simply going to encourage the player to start with magic at a lower priority (can be as low as C: Magic 3). Use karma to raise magic after creation, and get the magic points for free.

The dilemma of the mystic adept is that they start too weak (unless they ignore one side of their potential), and (given a long enough campaign) end up too powerful. It's a generalist archetype in a setting that favours specialists.

[Falconer]

Yes Rhat, and your 1.5 x rank is just as much of a joke and just as bad as the current as a flat 2 or rumored 5 karma a piece.

Seriously undercosted.

[Thanee]

Magician-side and Adept-side can synergize rather well...

Bye
Thanee

[RHat]

Yes Rhat, and your 1.5 x rank is just as much of a joke and just as bad as the current as a flat 2 or rumored 5 karma a piece.

Seriously undercosted.

... At Magic 6, it's 9 per power point. What would you consider an appropriate cost?

[Falconer]

If you bothered to read Rhat. You would have seen my suggested cost earlier in the thread... in karmagen terms...

105 karma at 5x rank for both magic & PP (also remember PP are more valuable in SR5 than SR4 with adept power cost reductions making each point buy more). EG: pay full cost for power points, but don't buy them on top of the existing magic attribute (essentially mystic adepts end up with 2 seperate magic attributes... bought seperately).

5 + 10 + 15 + 20 == Magic 4 for 50 karma. 4 Power points for 50 karma. 100 karma total... so 5 karma leftover for other things.
Or for the pure mage... 105 karma is enough to buy 5 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 + 30 == Magic 6.

Scaling costs keep things in line, the mystic adept gets more than the old style magic 6... split 3/3. Instead a substantial 33% boost to 8 raw points of magic split 4/4 for an even split (the most cost effective if talking in raw total magic). That's pretty far from gimping them at full attribute cost.


Not a joke of no brainer under costing that 1.5x per rank, flat 2 per point, or flat 5 per point is. At those costs why would I ever play a pure adept?! Why not play a mystic adept and simply buy cheap power points and ignore spellcasting/summoning/alchemy! No one seems to have thought of that unintended consequence.

[RHat]

... Karmagen terms are not relevant to SR5 discussions at this time, Falconer. Whatever the solution is, it has to in some way fit into SR5 Priority.

And if you look at the numbers, MystAds actually progress a good deal slower than PhysAds if you base Power Point costs on Magic. It's actually worth noting that 1.5xMagic is actually too high to fit into SR5 Priority, because 6 points clock in at 54 Karma as compared to a maximum of 50 chargen Karma (if you take full negative qualities).

[Falconer]

Which is irrelevant to viewing things on the only scale which matters on a long term cost/benefit chart. When viewing characters... tallying the raw karma costs (as if built using karmagen) is generally the best way to compare build efficiency. Generally a build which optomizes 'karma value' in chargen will in the long haul end up stronger than a build which doesn't... since it will always have an 'edge' when buying up things and be able to more effectively spend karma later.


And also... NO ONE has any business coming out of chargen with effectively 12 points of magic! So your assertion is critically flawed. I reject the premise that anyone should be coming out of chargen with 6 points worth of adept powers and 2 points of magic even (let alone 6 or 7).

1.5x is still a complete and utter joke of undercosting... especially if as hinted at by your silly chart. You can buy PP in excess of your magic score. There is no reason to ever take adept then. A full adept pays full costs... while your mystic adept gets 'discount' points again.

[RHat]

I'm sorry, did you just try to claim chargen is irrelevant?

Also, the pure Adept pays less for power points. The adept just has to pay the initiation cost and select that metamagic, while the mystic adept has to do that AND pay an additional cost for the power point itself. Then, down the line, if you want to go to Magic 7 as a MystAd with 12 power points, it's gonna be expensive - 69 Karma instead of 35, or 80 Karma if you also want to get a Power Point with the new point of Magic.

[Falconer]

No, you're the one putting words into my mouth yet again.

Chargen should provide roughly balanced characters in terms of cost. Currently the only real yardstick of character 'worth' we have is total karma value. And sorry but someone with 6 magic & 6 PP is not balanced in any way shape or form. It should not be a possibility out of chargen, even if the idiotic bit about 2karma per point in chargen is in there right now. That's the problem in the first place.... tailoring scaling costs to reflect the idiocy possible with the current undercosting does not fix the problem.

Your own chart gives lie to what you just claimed about costss... there should be no entry for magic 1, 6 PP if your current claim is true. That shows gaining power points without raising magic is part of your calculations.

Which is yet another problem with the current rewrite of mystic adepts... you can't make a mystic dabbler... you MUST be a full magician before you can raise PP's... which is completely backwards. In SR3 this was made clear... you lost PP's spent on magic first in all cases... if you lost all your PP spent on Magic from permanent magic loss you were a straight adept and could never be a Mystic Adept again.

You can't make an adept with 6 PP and 2 magic with the current boondoggle... an adept who dabbles in alchemy on the side for example. It's a glaring flaw in the system.

One of the few things they got right in this edition is making it clear that adepts and only pure adepts can gain a freebie PP when they initiate... but that doesn't compare to simply buying cheap PP unless the Magic limitation is in place... which enforces that a mystic adept must be a mage first... and an adept second since the former limits the latter. The two should be uncoupled.

[RHat]

Hey, you're the one who called the long term "the only scale that matters".

That chart was generated with an EXTREMELY simple algorithm. Magic 1, 6 PP exists on there because I was too damn lazy to bother writing anything to cap power points at twice Magic - after all, it's only purpose is to run numbers. However, the suggesting itself also assumes that the "initiate for power point" option would exist for Mystic Adepts, with the commensurate Karma cost applied to the power point - so that you can, if you want, continue to focus on the Adept side.

Now, I'd certainly like to see Mystic Adepts have the option to be an Adept first and a Mage second, but the whole point of the suggestion is to work within the existing system. If I were going to rewrite them from the ground up, I'd come up with a different system - possibly similar to this one and using an entirely different set of constraints.

I should also point out that any Awakened who has Magic 6 will almost certainly be leaving chargen with more than that - Mentor Spirits grant Adepts free powers, Qi Foci are good for more power points (Rating 4 is easily in reach, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why you can't have more than one), and you can get a Power Focus up to Force 3 at chargen. And a MystAd that spends all his chargen karma on Power Points gets none of those - making him both a less effective Mage and less effective Adept than could be built, while still being an attractive option.

I'm also very skeptical of the idea of using Karma as a balance yardstick because I simply do not want to assume that the Karma costs are all balanced.

[Thanee]

The adept just has to pay the initiation cost and select that metamagic, while the mystic adept has to do that AND pay an additional cost for the power point itself.

Mystic Adepts can select the Metamagic, too.

Even if they never select any other Metamagic, they get full Magic Rating and spells / spirits / enchantments on top of what the Adept gets (for pretty much the same cost; only in chargen they are marginally more expensive).

Bye
Thanee

[RHat]

Mystic Adepts can select the Metamagic, too.

Even if they never select any other Metamagic, they get full Magic Rating and spells / spirits / enchantments on top of what the Adept gets (for pretty much the same cost; only in chargen they are marginally more expensive).

Bye
Thanee

To be clear, I was referencing part of what would be different in the structure I was proposing. Basically, any time an adept would gain a power point a mystic adept would have the option of doing so, but must pay the additional karma cost to actually get the power point.

[Thanee]

Ah, I see, sorry. Thought you were talking about the regular rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[RHat]

Ah, I see, sorry. Thought you were talking about the regular rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

I can see where it might get mixed around.

[cndblank]

I believe Mystic Adept will be fine when PPs are 5 Karma each.

I think 4 Karma would be better. Six magic, that is 24 Karma leaving 26 Karma for other purchases.
And I agree that a higher PP cost will balance them out especially since they usually spread themselves out too much any way.

[X-Kalibur]

I think 4 Karma would be better. Six magic, that is 24 Karma leaving 26 Karma for other purchases.
And I agree that a higher PP cost will balance them out especially since they usually spread themselves out too much any way.

You mean leaving 1 for other purchases, maybe. Not everyone takes 25 negative qualities and no positive ones.

I do feel like Mystic Adepts will be able to take the mantle of best combat mage, and I'm actually fine with that. (Well, best until the magician can cast and maintain increased reflexes 10 for that 5d6)

[Thanee]

I do feel like Mystic Adepts will be able to take the mantle of best combat mage, and I'm actually fine with that. (Well, best until the magician can cast and maintain increased reflexes 10 for that 5d6)

Why would the Mystic Adept not use the Increase Reflexes spell? Getting that from the Adept side would be a rather weak choice, if you can get it so much easier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[X-Kalibur]

Why would the Mystic Adept not use the Increase Reflexes spell? Getting that from the Adept side would be a rather weak choice, if you can get it so much easier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

Well, mostly because you have to cast and sustain said spell. You need 2 hits to gain +1 REA and +1d6. This means that improved reflexes 3 (adept) is equal to having a constantly sustained Increase Reflexes 6 with all 6 hits and no focus to worry about. (or drain)