Wireless grenades Options

[kerbarian]

Anyone with a mark on a wireless-enabled grenade can detonate it. Minigrenades can't be detonated until they've been fired from a grenade launcher and traveled 5 meters -- presumably thrown grenades have some similar physical safety (pin, switch, etc.).

Even if a hacker can't detonate the hand grenade in your pocket, he could have it blow your arm off as soon as you pull the pin and wind up to throw. If you want to use grenades effectively, though, wireless detonation looks like the only good option.

I'm mostly okay with the idea of wireless bonuses and devices being vulnerable to hacking, but having a grenade go off in your hand brings it to a new level. Clearly, it's not desirable to leave your grenades online where they can be hacked until you're about to throw them.

The rules for devices with wireless bonuses say that you can turn wireless off as a free action, but I can't find anything that says what type of action it is to turn wireless on. If you want to throw a grenade with wireless detonation and be sure no one else has a mark on it, would it have to work something like: simple action (ready grenade), simple action (turn on grenade wireless), simple action (throw grenade), free action (detonate grenade)?

Also, the description of wireless grenade detonation says that it reduces scatter (p. 181), but I can't find anything in the rules that explains how. There's the airburst link for grenade launchers, but this is specifically in the description of wireless detonation of hand grenades. Am I missing something?

[kzt]

Given that the most common use of hand grenades is to throw in through an opening and then the thrower gets his ass behind hard cover prior to the bright flash and loud bang, how is wireless detonation supposed to work? If you can see the grenade to set it off, the blast front/fragments will attack you.

[Sendaz]

You get a wireless bonus to dodge your own shrapnel? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Slide]

I see the wireless enabled being part of "arming" the gernade. Basicaly like pulling the pin, pushing abutton, ect. As far as detonating it wirelessly, if i toss a gernade down a stairwell, or in a window, or through a door, i feel that I would typicaly have good cover. Hand gernades in the open is a poor choice.

[Jaid]

changing a device's mode is usually a simple action unless connected by DNI or wirelessly, in which case it is free. of course, since you need a simple to ready, a simple to throw, and a free to detonate, it really doesn't matter; that's a full round's worth of actions regardless. you don't have either a simple or a free action available to enable wireless, so it is rather a moot point anyways.

what you actually would have to do is spend a simple action 1 IP in advance to ready the grenade, then you could use a simple to change mode to wireless (operating under the assumption that you aren't crazy enough to have it attached by wires, since for obvious reasons using wireless commands to enable wireless mode is going to be fraught with difficulties), and a simple action to throw, followed by using your free action to detonate.

or, alternately, you could ready it, make it wireless, and drop it into someone else's hand, who could then throw it and wirelessly detonate it (provided they also have access; password-protection on your grenades is definitely recommended).

or, you could have a grenade-on-a-string wired to your datajack (note: you are clearly insane if you try this), ready it (simple), throw it (simple), and then depending on how strongly you are being compelled to follow the rules, you can either wirelessly enable it for someone else to detonate (strict interpretation, since wireless bonuses such as being able to trigger grenades officially only apply when you're connected to the matrix itself, DNI is not good enough), or you can just detonate it (if you think that being connected to the matrix as a whole and not merely your PAN is a reasonable requirement to be able to control the grenade with mental commands)

given how deadly grenades are in SR5, i'm not convinced that's such a bad thing that it takes so much to get it to work well.

edit: quick correction... wonder of wonders, whoever wrote the grenade rules was not forced to use the wireless bonus rules, but rather allows you to trigger the explosion with a mere DNI connection (ie the way it bloody well should be). as such, in the event that you have a grenade attached to you by fiberoptic cable (which is still crazy, imo) you can actually ready it, throw it, and detonate it in the same action even if you're using the official rules. unless this is turned into a special wireless bonus later on in the gear chapter.

edit again: in other good news, for anyone who doesn't have a book, it is much much MUCH easier to actually hit things with grenades, grenade launchers, missile launchers, and rocket launchers. as in, actual direct hits are reasonably possible for a skilled user without being completely dependant on not having an awful scatter roll.

first of all, you target a location, not a person; someone else dodging will not make your grenade magically go off course.
secondly, if you do well enough, you hit that location. period. the game no longer uses scatter rolls unless you "miss", and you can hit fairly reliably if you aren't trying something crazy hard and have a respectable dice pool.

[kerbarian]

edit again: in other good news, for anyone who doesn't have a book, it is much much MUCH easier to actually hit things with grenades, grenade launchers, missile launchers, and rocket launchers. as in, actual direct hits are reasonably possible for a skilled user without being completely dependant on not having an awful scatter roll.

first of all, you target a location, not a person; someone else dodging will not make your grenade magically go off course.
secondly, if you do well enough, you hit that location. period. the game no longer uses scatter rolls unless you "miss", and you can hit fairly reliably if you aren't trying something crazy hard and have a respectable dice pool.

With timer-based detonation, it's easy to land the grenade where you want, but it doesn't go off for more than an entire combat turn, so enemies have plenty of time to get out of the way or even throw it back.

With an impact detonator you use the ranged attack rules, which means (apparently) that there must be a defender you're throwing it at who gets to make an opposing defense roll. A critical glitch also means it goes off in your hand.

Wireless gives you the best of both -- you roll only against a threshold (instead of an opposing defender) plus you get immediate detonation. Or, if it manages to scatter somewhere inconvenient, you don't have to detonate it at all. There's just that nagging issue of whether someone else might have a mark on your grenade when you arm it...

[Yerameyahu]

Also, the description of wireless grenade detonation says that it reduces scatter (p. 181), but I can't find anything in the rules that explains how. There's the airburst link for grenade launchers, but this is specifically in the description of wireless detonation of hand grenades. Am I missing something?

Did anyone address this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasted a few minutes rereading, but it seems that there's indeed no numbers for this. (Same text under rockets.)

[Jaid]

Did anyone address this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasted a few minutes rereading, but it seems that there's indeed no numbers for this. (Same text under rockets.)

i don't think so... best i can offer is that iirc that's been submitted to the errata thread, and that indirect area spells (which scatter like hand grenades) *do* have rules for hits reducing scatter.

[phlapjack77]

Did anyone address this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I wasted a few minutes rereading, but it seems that there's indeed no numbers for this. (Same text under rockets.)

Welcome back!

Yeah, I had this same question about airburst link and scatter as well - maybe it's something for the errata thread

*edit* shakes fist at jaid

[Draco18s]

edit again: in other good news, for anyone who doesn't have a book, it is much much MUCH easier to actually hit things with grenades, grenade launchers, missile launchers, and rocket launchers. as in, actual direct hits are reasonably possible for a skilled user without being completely dependant on not having an awful scatter roll.

first of all, you target a location, not a person; someone else dodging will not make your grenade magically go off course.
secondly, if you do well enough, you hit that location. period. the game no longer uses scatter rolls unless you "miss", and you can hit fairly reliably if you aren't trying something crazy hard and have a respectable dice pool.

*Insert giant throbbing heart here*

I'm actually really happy for this change, because this makes so much more sense.

Shame I can't find a missions game now and show up with a grenadier with a beef with furniture now though.

[nezumi]

Playing SR3, I've regularly seen people put grenades within a meter of what they were aiming for.

And for the record, I believe in only using wired grenades.

[Draco18s]

Playing SR3, I've regularly seen people put grenades within a meter of what they were aiming for.

What about guided and unguided missiles?

[Stahlseele]

unguided had scatter of . . what? 4D6 -net hits on the attack roll?
So you had to have 4 net hits after the target dodged to hit the target you aimed for.
and you had to roll all 1's on the 4 scatter dice.
else, even if you have 1 net hit over the targets dodge, and the target is only 1-3m big, then you will miss the target by at least 1m.
so LAW from the shoulder is usually a pretty bad idea, if you are not aiming at an immobile structure . .

guided went down to 2D6 i think. on a bad scatter roll, it's still 10 to 12m from where you want it to go. seeing how these are usually kinda like tomahawk/cruise missles, meaning launched from behind cover, up into the air and then guided in, is pretty close to how nowadays missles work.

[Skynet]

SR3-missiles and -rockets both had 2D6 scatter. Guided missiles just reduced it further by their rating.

Back to grenades: Is there now any kind of evasion roll to get away from the blast? I haven't spotted one but the -2 modifier to escape an area-effect-weapon makes me wonder if i just missed it.

[Draco18s]

Back to grenades: Is there now any kind of evasion roll to get away from the blast? I haven't spotted one but the -2 modifier to escape an area-effect-weapon makes me wonder if i just missed it.

They do. I don't know how it works, but I think they roll a dodge test and move [hits] meters in any direction they'd like.

[Stahlseele]

before or after the grenade scatter has been rolled?

[Skynet]

Assuming a semi-professional thrower (DP9+ after modifiers)? What scatter? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

before or after the grenade scatter has been rolled?

After.

Assuming a semi-professional thrower (DP9+ after modifiers)? What scatter? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Scatter only comes into play if the thrower misses.

[Skynet]

(...)
Scatter only comes into play if the thrower misses.

That's what i was trying to say: With an effective dice pool of 9 he gets an average of 3 successes and so doesn't miss. I was trying to point out the improved chances of actually having no scatter at all.

[Jaid]

That's what i was trying to say: With an effective dice pool of 9 he gets an average of 3 successes and so doesn't miss. I was trying to point out the improved chances of actually having no scatter at all.

for more fun, consider a vehicle rigger with VCR 3.

gunnery is a vehicle test.

VCR 3 reduces vehicle test thresholds by 3.

therefore, the test now has a threshold of 0.

when you have a VCR 3, there are 2 possible outcomes:

1) everything goes horribly wrong and you blow yourself up (critical glitch)
2) you hit exactly what you were aiming at.

good times (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)