A Few Rules Questions, The other threads were a little unwieldy Options

[Opti]

1) Can you use Karma to become an initiate at character creation?

2) Can I put a laser sight on a Taser? Are there rules for what kind of gun can or can't have a laser sight/Smartlink?

3) Can Astrally perceiving (but not astrally projecting) characters use astral combat?

Thanks

[Nal0n]

1) Can you use Karma to become an initiate at character creation?

2) Can I put a laser sight on a Taser? Are there rules for what kind of gun can or can't have a laser sight/Smartlink?

3) Can Astrally perceiving (but not astrally projecting) characters use astral combat?

Thanks

As far as I understand it:
ad 1) No.
ad 2) Yes you can. All guns can take those.
ad 3) Yes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, One of my Shadowrunner Pals gifted me a copy of the Rules, and I have a question...

Any one else confused by the vehicle stats for Speed and Acceleration?
Can anyone explain them to me in a way that makes ANY sense?

[Moirdryd]

Speed is now a Limit for flat out chase/race tests (tearing down the freeway to get away from a go gang or flooring it in a head to head across a salt basin etc)
Handling is now a Limit for for evasion or terrain based tests (manuevering through back alleys strewn with debris or across rough off road tracks etc)
Acceleration defines how many range categories you can shift in the abstracted Vehicle vs Vehicle/Chase combat rules.

While its all fairly abstract there are some charts allow for real numbers in there too. I however like the abstract as its easier to bookkeep than running a list of accel, deccel and velocity numbers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Speed is now a Limit for flat out chase/race tests (tearing down the freeway to get away from a go gang or flooring it in a head to head across a salt basin etc)
Handling is now a Limit for for evasion or terrain based tests (manuevering through back alleys strewn with debris or across rough off road tracks etc)
Acceleration defines how many range categories you can shift in the abstracted Vehicle vs Vehicle/Chase combat rules.

While its all fairly abstract there are some charts allow for real numbers in there too. I however like the abstract as its easier to bookkeep than running a list of accel, deccel and velocity numbers.

Very, Very Strange indeed...
Can you point me to the Charts. I must have missed them the first time around.
Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tzeentch]

Very, Very Strange indeed...
Can you point me to the Charts. I must have missed them the first time around.
Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you want a REAL brain burner, check out how they "fixed" the critter Movement power with vehicles. Almost the very definition of over-complicated.

There's no chart, but see the Vehicle Speeds box on p. 200 for guidelines.

[binarywraith]

Oh, man. I hadn't even read the vehicle rules yet. They are legendarily Always Weird.

[Psikerlord]

ohman yeah, right time to check out vehicle rules...

[Moirdryd]

Page 199 explains the vehicle stats and page 203 gives the Chase combat rules. Page 200-203 deals with vehicles in tactical combat (complete with the walk-run meters per turn which is based on the speed attribute).

Like I said, they're an abstraction but one that works.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Page 199 explains the vehicle stats and page 203 gives the Chase combat rules. Page 200-203 deals with vehicles in tactical combat (complete with the walk-run meters per turn which is based on the speed attribute).

Like I said, they're an abstraction but one that works.

So my Hacker has a Walk of 4, and my Motorcycle has a Movement of 3... That is not going to be confusing at all. Abstract is fine, but please use the same damned stats across the board. It tends to make it more unified. And a Unified, abstract system is always better than a disunified one.

I really like how they give you a speed value and a conversion, and then the damage for Ramming Damage is a range, not based upon the speed attribute, but on the converted speeds. What were they smoking and why did they not share? Lunacy. *shakes head*

[Tzeentch]

Like I said, they're an abstraction but one that works.

Well ... I wouldn't be so sure of that with regard to ramming and such. Here's a useful chart:

Movement Rate
So we're clear, here's a chart of the walking Movement Rates for vehicles converted to mph and kph. Multiply the speeds on the chart below by 2 to get the running rate.
(the chart will just not behave even using the code tags, it should still be readable)

CODE

Speed Attribute            MPH      KPH
1                           3.7            6
2                           7.4           12
3                           14.9       24
4                           29.8       48
5                           59.2       96
6                           119.3      192
7                           238.6      384
8                           477.2      768
9                           954.4      1536
10                          1908.8      3072

[Patrick Goodman]

If you want a REAL brain burner, check out how they "fixed" the critter Movement power with vehicles. Almost the very definition of over-complicated.

I thought I did okay on that one, but maybe not.

Okay, smart guy, how should I have done it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Skynet]

Just checked the Movement-power.

So how about:
"If the target is a vehicle, the critter makes a Magic + Willpower test with a threshold of
half the vehicle’s Body (round up), with a minimum of 2.
Multiply (or divide) the vehicles speed and acceleration values by the critters magic-rating. For every hit missing to achieve the threshold reduce the effective magic rating by 1 (to a minimum of 1)."

Keeps math to a minimum, prevents the vehicles from reaching relativistic speeds (because the original rule had no limit) and also allows the critter to influence bigger vehicles (without having to roll a dozen times).

On a side note: "as if making an Acceleration or Deceleration Test". Care to share where to find that test in the book? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tzeentch]

I thought I did okay on that one, but maybe not.

Its the vehicle part that is too complex for it's own good IMO. Not to mention it appears to be written for advanced vehicle rules that are not in the book. I don't know what an Acceleration or Deceleration Test is, for example (forgot to add that to the errata thread).

Okay, smart guy, how should I have done it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

RULES SHOWDOWN!

I'll give it a crack, but I want to make sure I'm going for the same goal, otherwise I would just radically simplify this to straight + Speed (albeit inertialess) for the entire duration.

What was your design intent? I assume it was largely to eliminate the Movement-enhanced semiballistic planes? If it was to prevent crazy ram damage that ship already sailed with or without Movement (see Mr Torgue's Wild Ride thread). However, the current Movement does somewhat exacerbate the ram damage shenanigans because every hit doubles the speed of the vehicle (+1 Speed/hit). Dodge Scoot + Movement can be quite deadly.


Here's a version of what I was thinking (borrowing some of your verbiage but I'm also intentionally ignoring previous versions).

(KEN'S) MOVEMENT
Type: P Action: Complex
Range: Special Duration: Sustained

This power allows the critter to speed up or slow down the movement rate of everyone, friend or foe, within (Magic x 2) meters. The critter chooses how the power affects each target (including itself) within that radius. The effect lasts until the critter wills it, the target moves out of LOS, or (in the case of spirits) you leave the domain it controls. Unwilling targets make an Opposed Test using Intuition + Willpower against the critter's Magic + Willpower. Vehicles automatically resist the effects of Movement using their Object Resistance dice pool (p. 295).

The critter may multiply or divide the Run Rate of the target by the number of net hits rolled (up to its Magic attribute).

[Skynet]

Sounds nice too. Although i have one nitpick: If a vehicle always rolls its OR, that basically means every vehicle will roll 15+ dice against the critters magic+willpower. Looks like you need some pretty powerful spirits to push your car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[RelentlessImp]

As far as I understand it:
ad 1) No.

Can someone point me to where you can't initiate during chargen during the Spend Leftover Karma phase? It's not restricted...

[Skynet]

Can someone point me to where you can't initiate during chargen during the Spend Leftover Karma phase? It's not restricted...

It's not on the "Additional Purchases and Restrictions"-table on p.98.

Edit: Ok, thats only for purchases. I have to reread that section.

Edit2: Basically it's not mentioned as a possible choice for spending your leftover karma (not in the text on p.98, not in the table on the same page and not in "Character Advancement" on p. 103ff). It's not explicitly stated as being forbidden, it's just not listed as a possible option.

Personally i would allow it (it's just a single point cheaper than exceptional attribute and does increase the cost for further improvement in comparison).

[Tzeentch]

Sounds nice too. Although i have one nitpick: If a vehicle always rolls its OR, that basically means every vehicle will roll 15+ dice against the critters magic+willpower. Looks like you need some pretty powerful spirits to push your car. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I did that intentionally. This also has the net effect of massively reducing the possibility of current shenanigans like a spirit catapulting Eurocars 31,000 kilometers across the planet in a single Combat Turn.

[vapor]

It's not on the "Additional Purchases and Restrictions"-table on p.98.

Edit: Ok, thats only for purchases. I have to reread that section.

Edit2: Basically it's not mentioned as a possible choice for spending your leftover karma (not in the text on p.98, not in the table on the same page and not in "Character Advancement" on p. 103ff). It's not explicitly stated as being forbidden, it's just not listed as a possible option.

Personally i would allow it (it's just a single point cheaper than exceptional attribute and does increase the cost for further improvement in comparison).

It also solves the TM not being able to rig at chargen issue.

[RelentlessImp]

It's not on the "Additional Purchases and Restrictions"-table on p.98.

Edit: Ok, thats only for purchases. I have to reread that section.

Edit2: Basically it's not mentioned as a possible choice for spending your leftover karma (not in the text on p.98, not in the table on the same page and not in "Character Advancement" on p. 103ff). It's not explicitly stated as being forbidden, it's just not listed as a possible option.

Personally i would allow it (it's just a single point cheaper than exceptional attribute and does increase the cost for further improvement in comparison).

A lot of things aren't mentioned as possibilities, but it's suggested they are allowed.

Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc. Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma.

Emphasized wording one suggests that anything you can do with karma is available at this point. Emphasized wording two suggests that the table exists only for actions that have some kind of restriction on them.