Glitches in SR5 Options

[Jaid]

is it just me, or are a lot of the glitch examples things that make you fail at what you were doing, which is not at all how a glitch is supposed to do. the latest example of this i had just run across is in the quickdraw rules. if you fail, you draw your gun, but don't get to fire, with your simple action. if you glitch, you don't draw your gun and your turn ends. if you critically glitch, you drop your gun on the ground or something similar.

but hold on a second... a regular glitch means you should have succeeded, but with some drawback. if what you're attempting to do is rapidly draw your gun and fire, then how the hell does *not* drawing the gun, *not* shooting, and *not* being able to use any further actions in the turn "success". this is actually *worse* than failing.

a glitch should be something like rushing your shot and taking a -2 dicepool penalty or something like that. that would be an example where you succeed, but with a drawback. and this isn't the only example of that i've seen in the book either.

and yet, the rules tell me that a regular glitch is supposed to be a success, but with some drawback.

another example is in extended tests. why the hell does a regular glitch remove 1d6 hits? in what way is that not worse than a failure, which would have simply not added any hits?

i'm not supposed to be more upset when i get a glitch than when i fail to generate even a single hit. why are there explicit rules that tell me it's better to fail completely than it is to succeed, but with a drawback? why is the drawback of my partial success *worse* than complete failure? (note: in the specific case of quick drawing, there is a threshold, so it is possible to generate hits but still fail the test, and i have no problem with failing the test in that case... although i'm curious why it's worse than generating no hits whatsoever but not getting a bunch of 1s... but the problem is that if i get enough hits to beat the threshold, i can still glitch, and in that case, i get screwed over worse than if i had just not generated any hits at all).

[Elve]

I have to agree!

[Umidori]

This is something I'll personally be house ruling out if it doesn't make the errata.

~Umi

[Jaid]

and, found another one.

"Glitched Vehicle Tests almost always result in a crash."

who's writing this stuff? that doesn't sound like a success with a drawback, that sounds like not succeeding at all with a fair chance that you, and any unfortunate suckers who are also in the vehicle, have a significant chance of death (notwithstanding the rules assure us that crashes often don't involve a lot of damage, that's only true if you're in a small vehicle).

someone needs to get a refresher course on what it actually means when you get a glitch, because it's getting a bit silly when

"The guideline for a glitch is that whatever happens
should make life more difficult for the particular shadowrunner
while not disastrously interfering with their
work."

matches up with potentially having to resist 18P -6 AP damage. or worse if you're in an aircraft (the rules don't specify, but presumably crashing in an aircraft is particularly bad news).

[Umidori]

It sounds like whoever wrote those sections wasn't familiar with the difference between glitches and critical glitches.

Compare to the SR4A rules, emphasis mine:

Vehicle Test Glitches

A glitch on a vehicle test causes something to go wrong with the vehicle. This can be anything from accidentally turning on the wipers to getting a flat, at the gamemaster’s discretion. At its most severe, a glitch might cause a temporary loss of control; apply a –2 modifier to tests made by any characters within the vehicle. The driver must succeed in a Vehicle Test within one turn or the vehicle crashes.

If the driver gets a critical glitch on the vehicle test, then the vehicle crashes.

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

Line should've said "Critically glitched vehicle tests almost always result in a crash."

Kinda like someone forgot there was a Critical Glitch, and assumed they were just glitches.

[Jaid]

Line should've said "Critically glitched vehicle tests almost always result in a crash."

Kinda like someone forgot there was a Critical Glitch, and assumed they were just glitches.

i would have thought so too, except that the next sentence tells you that critical glitches always result in crashes (i didn't mention that earlier because quite frankly i have no problem with critical glitch = crash; that's the kind of thing you expect on a critical glitch).

[SpellBinder]

*facepalm*

I think the next time the quality control & proofers should include people who are at least familiar with the game. I'm starting to feel like we're a bunch of beta testers.

[Umidori]

...starting?

~Umi

[SpellBinder]

Call me old fashioned if you want, but I feel that once it's a paid product on the market the beta test should be over.

[Umidori]

"We'll fix it in post."
"But sir, the film is debuting TONIGHT!"
"Then we'll rerelease the corrected version as a special edition in a year's time."

~Umi

[Novocrane]

Where does it say that a glitch means you still succeed? Not in my pdf. I can still roll enough hits to succeed, but that's a separate and unrelated thing. The sky is not falling, and you may need to calm down before you consider the following;

If you succeed, you draw the weapon and fire.

If you fail, you draw the weapon but require another action to fire.

If you glitch, you have not removed the weapon from the holster, (or you may have drawn properly, but dropped it afterwards) but still refer to success / failure for the rest of the result. You must wait til your next turn to act again.

If you critically glitch, your GM decides how that pans out - which may include the above.

Only holstered/sheathed weapons may be quick-drawn.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

If you glitch, you have not removed the weapon from the holster, but still refer to success / failure for the rest of the result. You lose your other actions this turn.

Hrm. But... Isn't removing the weapon from the holster the totality of the test, though? What other results of a quickdraw test need arbitration of success/failure?

Other than... if you succeed or fail to draw the weapon?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[RHat]

Where does it say that a glitch means you still succeed?

Page 45.

Note that it is possible to roll a glitch on a test that
has enough hits to be successful. In these cases, the
glitch does not cancel out the success; instead, the
glitch occurs in addition to the success. For example,
a troll could take a mighty swing at a dwarf, rolling
enough hits to make contact but also glitching. The
dwarf takes damage from the troll’s beefy fist slamming
into his face, but the force of the swing and the need to
aim downward takes the troll off balance, sending him
to the ground after the punch lands. In the next couple
of rounds, the troll has to get up on his feet and get
back into a fighting stance.

For a quick draw, this means that if you roll enough hits you still draw and fire the weapon. You might also hit the mag release and be left with only the round in the chamber to fire.

[Novocrane]

Hrm. But... Isn't removing the weapon from the holster the totality of the test, though? What other results of a quickdraw test need arbitration of success/failure?

Other than... if you succeed or fail to draw the weapon?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It's a test to draw and attack. If you just want to draw, that's not a test - it's an action.

So you have the weapon in your hands, and the holster is still on it. Guns will still fire if you succeed & glitch (though aiming accessories won't like it), while sharp throwing or melee weapons will have their own issues.

[ElFenrir]

I went on a rant in the review about how Glitching gets houseruled out plain and simple. I never liked it-not back in WoD, not now, and all it does is serve slow down the game. And yeah, I agree the way they're written they sound a lot worse than what they should be. (I'd be better with them if it was really, REALLY minor stuff.) I'm fine with 'risk/reward' but IMO, needing a 5 or 6 on a 6 sided to succeed and beat a threshold and stuff like that is pass/fail enough.

I don't mind Critical Glitches-IMO, those are like 'rolling a 1 on the 20 sided', though I don't make them hellish.

[Novocrane]

Page 45.

No no. That says a glitch does not cancel a success. That a glitch is separate to whether you succeed or fail. If you read the thread, the indignation was over glitches overriding successes. Which we both know isn't the case.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

No no. That says a glitch does not cancel a success. That a glitch is separate to whether you succeed or fail. If you read the thread, the indignation was over glitches overriding successes. Which we both know isn't the case.

Ahhh! K. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for the clarification.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[RHat]

No no. That says a glitch does not cancel a success. That a glitch is separate to whether you succeed or fail. If you read the thread, the indignation was over glitches overriding successes. Which we both know isn't the case.

So, a glitch+success on a quick draw means that you rip the holster off of whatever you're wearing it on?

[Novocrane]

So, a glitch+success on a quick draw means that you rip the holster off of whatever you're wearing it on?

Either that, or you wind up tossing a weapon that shouldn't be thrown. OR your GM gets to show of their creativity.

[SpellBinder]

"Your belt rips off and your pants fall to your ankles. You can make the shot, but now you're reduced to Reaction 1 when it comes to dodging until you can fix your wardrobe malfunction. Hope you're wearing clean underwear." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[RHat]

Either that, or you wind up tossing a weapon that shouldn't be thrown. OR your GM gets to show of their creativity.

I like the mag release option - I hear that's actually a thing that can happen.

[Elve]

It should be no consequence that prevents the intended action. So if you quickdraw and have hits as well as enough ones for a glitch, you should be able to shoot.

[Umidori]

No no. That says a glitch does not cancel a success. That a glitch is separate to whether you succeed or fail. If you read the thread, the indignation was over glitches overriding successes. Which we both know isn't the case.

Actually, at least for a Quick Draw, a glitch overriding a success is the case.

If the test is successful, the character draws the weapon and fires as a single Simple Action. If the test fails, he clears the gun but cannot fire with the same action. If he glitches, the gun is stuck in the holster or dropped, and no more actions are allowed. On a critical glitch, a drawn blade may be fumbled out of the character’s reach or a pistol accidentally fired while still in the holster; the game-master decides the exact nature of the screw-up.

In the case of a success, you draw and fire. In the case of a glitch, you do not draw and fire, and you lose any other remaining actions that pass. This ruling completely fails to account for a roll that succeeds, but that also glitches.

The two situations can overlap, yet their respective rulings are mutually exclusive and contradictory. The easiest way to logically reconcile this paradox is to assume that the rules intend for a "successful" test to mean a test which does not result in any glitch at all, and for "glitching" to mean a test which results in any glitch at all.

In either case, this is clearly not how things have operated in the past, and it clearly contradicts with the citation of page 45 and the rule about glitches not canceling successes.

~Umi

[Jaid]

exactly. i specifically said i have no problem with failing to make the threshold meaning that you don't draw the gun.

but when you beat the threshold and glitch, you don't draw the gun, and you don't have any more actions. beating the threshold should mean that you draw the gun (and shoot), because that's what the threshold is for; glitching could throw you off, and make you take a penalty to the shot. if you didn't succeed, it could mean that you didn't draw the gun and take a penalty on your next attempt to quickdraw (or that quickdraw isn't even an option) because it's gotten stuck and you're going to need to take the time to draw properly.

it should not mean that your success (if any) is cancelled plus you lose another action.

and as i've said, this is not the only case where a successful roll + a glitch is worse than failure. if i just flat out fail to get a single hit on an extended test, i make no progress. if i get a hit and glitch, i *lose* progress. if i succeed, a glitch should not turn it into a failure, and turning a success into a failure is the *best* case i can hope for if i get one hit and glitch on an extended test. most likely, i'm actually going to go backwards a fair chunk. that is the exact opposite of success.