Soo, the long SR5 Review, Finally posted it up. Options

[ElFenrir]

Welp, here are my thoughts on this thing.


Part 1: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/sha...-review-part-1/

Part 2: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/sha...-review-part-2/

Part 3: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/sha...-review-part-3/


I don't expect everyone to agree with it, but all in all, it was fun writing it. As errata comes out, who knows if my mind will change on things. Will be posting updates on my thoughts about the 3 power levels, as I said, which I've actually been having fun making characters for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


Hope you enjoy it. Sorry for it's extreme length, though I did make a point of saying 'Jump to part 3 if you don't care about the technicalities.'

[Wakshaani]

Good stuff, and I look forward to your run through Chargen. I think I put together about thirty characters when we were getting near to having everything finished.

[Samoth]

Good review, your opinions are close to mine for the most part.

[RelentlessImp]

Like the review, but you had to mention the Wireless bonuses as the 'big Room Elephant' which added a vaguely sour, preconceived opinion to the piece which made that entire section feel more like an opinion piece rather than a review.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Awesome Work, Elfenrir... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Isath]

Nice review, although I do not agree on all accounts. SR5 is to nostalgic, doing away with good concepts in favor of: "it has allways been that way, before SR4". That being said.... it schould never have been "Deckers".

[Whipstitch]

Like the review, but you had to mention the Wireless bonuses as the 'big Room Elephant' which added a vaguely sour, preconceived opinion to the piece which made that entire section feel more like an opinion piece rather than a review.

Reviews are opinion pieces.

[RelentlessImp]

Reviews are opinion pieces.

A review should cover the bad from a neutral standpoint; I'm just saying it makes it feel less neutral, more "slamming this because I don't like it" rather than "slamming this because it's objectively bad", alleviated only slightly by suggesting it could be awesome.

[Whipstitch]

A lot of people would disagree with you, in part due to subtext--just by making excuses for things in the first place you often reveal your own biases and expectations, which is why many professional critics don't operate in they way you describe at all. Everyone has their own biases, and while it's certainly possible to try and imagine and describe hypothetical people who may not dislike the things you dislike about a product, it's often a rather empty exercise that at worst can obfuscate what you actually believe about the product for no particular purpose but to appeal to those who enjoy the illusion of objectivity you are incapable of providing. What reviews and opinion pieces thrive off is forthrightness, and feigned objectivity undermines that.

[ElFenrir]

I have to say thanks for the feedback so far, and for the criticism as well; I'm cool with constructive criticism. The funny thing is-in my head, the 'elephant in the room' phrase isn't necessarily *hugely* negative; it's not positive, but I always thought of it as a sort of way of saying 'there's a big issue here that needs discussing that a lot of people notice, and it could be problematic.' I agree-I approach reviews with at least some opinion in there. I always have and I probably always will. To be honest, I prefer reading them than a purely objective review. There WAS a time where I thought I preferred purely objective reviews, but something happened and I couldn't explain what, but I think Whipstitch nailed what that ended up being. (At the same time, I think there's also a limit on the other end-if a review is nothing but a 100% rant from beginning to end, I'm not going to be sure what to think. Unless the thing being reviewed is Bubsy 3D or something.)

What actually made me a bit confused, though, I admit-is that I was more expecting to be called out on the slightly angry rant about Knowledge Skills being x2, the sudden enormous increase of some Bioware or my glitch rant, since I actually thought those were put in a far more negative light than the Wireless thing, which I'm not totally on board with as IS but I think it has potential if tweaked properly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[RelentlessImp]

My bigger issue with the Wireless bonus section is it's being slammed more than the Knowledge skill change in more forums that people likely to read the review frequent. It felt closer to you throwing gas on the fire than giving a review. That's just me, though - apparently.

[kzt]

(At the same time, I think there's also a limit on the other end-if a review is nothing but a 100% rant from beginning to end, I'm not going to be sure what to think. Unless the thing being reviewed is Bubsy 3D or something.)

I give you http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wa...phantom-menace/

[Lurker37]

Add me to the 'reviews are opinion pieces' crowd.

A would-be purchaser is best served by being alerted to rules that may cause tension or frustration so they can read them, and consider how to (or whether to) introduce them at their table, rather than have an unexpected blowup (player or plotline) during play.

[ElFenrir]

I had totally forgotten about that Phantom Menace review. Okay, yes, that was awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And here we go, with the 'Chargen Reviews.'

Street Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...1-street-level/

Prime Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...-2-prime-level/

Normal Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...3-normal-level/

These were a ton of fun, I admit, and I got some very good information from them.

[RelentlessImp]

I had totally forgotten about that Phantom Menace review. Okay, yes, that was awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And here we go, with the 'Chargen Reviews.'

Street Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...1-street-level/

Prime Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...-2-prime-level/

Normal Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...3-normal-level/

These were a ton of fun, I admit, and I got some very good information from them.

[Note: The SR5 book does NOT have breaking skill groups on the 'Additional Restrictions' chart, nor does it specifically forbid it in any of the pages I can see, so I'll be doing it with this sample character.]

It even spells out this is something you can do in the book:

(Note that skill groups can be broken up in Step Seven: Spend Your Left Over Karma (p. 98).

Page 88, What The Numbers Mean, right column, end of paragraph.

Overall, I liked the overview, and it's easy to see which one you had the most fun making. The DX:HR reference on the Prime one made me chuckle.

[ElFenrir]

...Heh, you know, I've been staring at words the past few days so much, that I think in the back of my brain I actually knew that with the skill group, but for some reason I completely brainfarted while writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I actually had a lot of fun making all three, but I was wondering how my writing hid the one I had the 'most' fun with. Not well by the look. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[RelentlessImp]

I could be wrong, of course; but when you preface it with the character's personality and such taking shape before you're even done assigning priorities, it's pretty obvious. (Or at least, that's the ones I have the most fun with. YMMV.)

[cndblank]

Add me to the 'reviews are opinion pieces' crowd.

A would-be purchaser is best served by being alerted to rules that may cause tension or frustration so they can read them, and consider how to (or whether to) introduce them at their table, rather than have an unexpected blowup (player or plotline) during play.

Agreed on both counts.

Roger Ebert was a good critic. He had his own opinions but was fair.
He understood that other people have different tastes and would point out what a particular movie did well or failed to delivery on.

And because I've read a lot of his reviews and then seen the movie, I had a good idea of what my opinion would be after reading his review.
If he said a movie was weak in one area, then I went in knowing not to expect much. Saved a lot of disappointment.

Giving a heads up on the strengths and weaknesses of a product in the reviewer's opinion is an important part of a review.

[Wakshaani]

I had totally forgotten about that Phantom Menace review. Okay, yes, that was awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

And here we go, with the 'Chargen Reviews.'

Street Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...1-street-level/

Prime Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...-2-prime-level/

Normal Level: http://azaael.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/sha...3-normal-level/

These were a ton of fun, I admit, and I got some very good information from them.

Looking over this now, and making a couple small notes.

First, Kat the Raven Shaman, I'd suggest dropping Enchanting and Banishing by 1 point each (To a 3 and 2, respectively) and picking up Assessing 2. Not having that one'll hurt. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Second, yeah, I think people are going to start eyebaling Resources A and going, "Do I *really* need that?" more often on their Samurai. There are some nice options tucked around in there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As always, interesting to see someone else's vision for a Samurai, as mine would have been *quite* a bit differently.

On the third, when building the PhysAd for the Archetypes, I had a brainfart and forgot that you could convert Karma to cash. That would have saved so many struggles *wince* On teh other hand, skill dabbling, where you take some skills at 1 with your karma "slush fund" is just awesome. Things like Computer 1, which as you noted pretty much everyone in the 6th world should have, drops right in there without hurting your "real" skills.

The chargen system has some handcuffs here and there (As a skill guy, I never feel like I have enough) when compared to the freeform days of 4th, it speeds things up a TON and makes sure that you aren't completely imbalanced. I dig it.

For your next challenges, try these two: First, a normal Face, then a street-level Decker. You'll find yourself facing two different obstacles that can both be hopped over, but will make you pause for a bit. I'll let you figure out what those are when you get there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

I know you weren't planning on it, but I'd be interested in your assessment of the fiction pieces in the core book.

[ElFenrir]

RE: The Fiction. I did find them generally enjoyable reads that gave a pretty good world-feel with a bit of the old-school familiar tones which I have a big soft spot for. I liked some more than others; my two favorites were probably 'Where There's Smoke' and 'Rooftops and Rainbows.' They jumped out at me the most overall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Rigger story, that one didn't do much for me for some reason. (This is a very, very quick n' dirty outlook of it, I know, compared to the lengthy review of the rules, but since I wasn't planning it at least I'd want to give some overall opinion. I could at some point get around to doing a more thorough overlook. I've read them all, but I admit fiction reviews aren't my strongest point-I writer it, review videogames and tabletop games, but I haven't done an actual, honest to god written fiction review in a very, very long time.)

The Chargen-I actually felt *less* handcuffed here than 4e. WAY less. (And yeah, I notice Sams tend to be really, really different. Hell, I've built some different ones. I was going for your good physical stat, high Initiative, combat type with some backups.) But I felt so much more free here. I felt that 4e tried to shove too many artifical shackles on(skill limits, extremely expensive final points, etc.)

The Assensing thing for Kat-that was on my mind, but for some reason I passed it over. I can't recall why, I think I got distracted by another part of the character sheet. I did do quite a bit of number shuffling on all 3. And yeah, after the Sam was all said and done, I did think 'Hmm, Resources B with that shifting around could have worked too.'

I'll pop those other two here for one. First. Normal Face? That's not too hard. (Now, Street Decker. That one might take awhile. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) This guy isn't like, 110% optimal, but I like it. It's a pretty quick and rough thing, without as much as the detail in the others, but it proves that in terms of scratching down the numbers, this new chargen doesn't take that long. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ Spoiler ]

'Handsome' Bob Rodriguez


A: Race(Troll)-5 Special Attribute Points
B: Skills(36/5)
C: Resources(140,000)
D: Attributes(14)
E: Magic


Body: 5(0)
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2(3)
Strength: 5(0)
Charisma: 5(+2 all Social Skill tests)
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 4

Edge: 6(+5 Special Points)
Initative: 7+1d6


Positive Qualities:

Exceptional Attribute(Charisma)-14
First Impression(10)
Total: 24


Negative Qualities:
Low Pain Tolernace(+9 Karma)
Unsteady Hands(+7 Karma)
16



Bonus Karma: 17 left

Additional Contact Points: 5
Palming 2(6 Karma)


Active Skills:

Acting Skill Group: 5

Etiquette: 6
Negotiation: 6
Con: 5
Forgery: 4
Computer: 2
Pistols: 3
Perception: 3
Leadership: 3
Sneaking: 1
Disguise: 3
Palming: 2(Bonus)
Intimidation: 2(Bonus)

Knowledge/Language Skills: (14)

Corporate Finances: 2
Vintage Wines: 2
Seattle Corporate Hosts: 2
Antique Cars: 1

Spanish: N
English: 4
Japanese: 3


Ware:

Tailored Pheremones Lv. 1-31,000
Reaction Enhancers(1)-13,000
Skilljack Lv. 2: 40,000

=84,000


Lifestyle, Gear, Contacts

Fake Sins:
Rating 1x2(5,000)
Rating 2x2(10,000)

Middle Lifestyle : 10,000(+100% for Troll)

=25,000

Browning Ultra Power(640) w/ Concealable Holster, 50 Rounds(100), 50 APDS(600), 50 Gel(125)
15 Clips: 75
Stun Baton: 750

Armor Jacket(1,000)
Actioneer Business Suit(1500)
Various Clothing(1,000)
Armor Vest(500)

Erika Elite Commlink(Hot SIm): 2,750
Subvocal Mic: 50
Printer/E Paper: 30
10 Stealth Tags(100)
10 Datachips(50)
Bug Scanner 6(600)
Data Tap: 300
White Noise Generator 6(300)
Micro-Transceiver(100)
Certified Credsticks(2 regular, 1 silver, 1 gold)-130
Fake Licenses(assorted, 4 at rating 4 each): 2400
Monacle(Rating 4)-3,000
w/Low-Light, Flare Compensation, Vision Mag and Image Link: 1,025
Earbuds(3)-150
With Audio Enhancement 3: 1500
Sequencer 4: 1,000
Keycard Copier 3: 1,800
Chemsuit 4: 600
Respirator 6: 300
Survival Kit: 200
Linguasofts:
German 2
Russian 2
Sioux 2
Chinese 2-8,000

55825 spent total on gear/lifestyle


Contact Points: 15 Free(+5 Bonus Karma)

Fixer: C4 L2(6)
Mr. Johnson: C3 L1(4)
Beat Cop: C1 L1(2)
Corporate Decker: C2 L1(3)
Bouncer: C1 L1(2)
Wage Mage: C2 L1(3)

[Samoth]

I've done a lot of screwing around with the totals, and here are my preliminary findings. For what it's worth, this has taken me a LOT longer than BP or Karma gen ever did. I should note I normally play Adepts and toyed around with builds for those, so non-magical characters would be a different layout but the basics are similar.

Attributes are king. They influence all the Limits and of course add their rating to skills for tests. They also happen to be the most expensive part to raise (tied with Skill Groups, which again, use a linked Attribute), which shouldn't shock anyone since it has been like that forever. I really hate how constrictive this Priority system is as I am a guy who always liked to have a variety of skills at low levels and Attributes not maxed or close to maxed, but I am now punished for doing so in a value-sense.

Attributes A is the clear winner for me, but I don't play Trolls so they aren't a consideration for me at ranks A or B. Attributes A allows a Human to have 4s across the board, but statistically it allows for one maxed stat of 6, four stats at 5, one at 4 and two dump stats at 1. Again, I hate this, but min/maxing this Priority system is far more complex than it should be thanks to the alarming number of variables in each rank.

After Attributes are taken care of, I choose Skills of B. You can take five skills at Rank 6, each with a specialization and have 1 skill point left over. It remains to be seen how skills will work mathematically in relation to limits; I wonder if their overall value will have decreased and more emphasis will be placed on Attributes anyway.

Since I like magical characters I take Adept at C for the starting 4 Magic and free level 2 active skill, and spend the final skill point on a specialization for it. Race of D works well for magical humans since they can then max Magic at 6 and raise Edge one rating to 3. Resources are E since Adepts don't need much in my builds.

If I were to take magic out of the equation, I would make Race C and max Edge, and then take Resources at D. In my experience, money is easier to come by in-game than Karma, so I always take as little as possible. You could of course flip these two if you liked.

My goal is to get the max attribute points possible and I believe that is achievable with the outline above, but I'm sure once others get a chance to throw some ideas together we'll figure out what really does work best. In the meantime I'll keep my fingers crossed for a karmagen system in the Runner's Companion.

[Jaid]

some concepts absolutely cannot function in any way with resources at D. like deckers, and most street samurai.

also, if it took you that long to figure out what was best, i consider that a good thing. if it was easy to make the decision, that would be a strong indicator that something isn't balanced very well.

[Samoth]

some concepts absolutely cannot function in any way with resources at D. like deckers, and most street samurai.

also, if it took you that long to figure out what was best, i consider that a good thing. if it was easy to make the decision, that would be a strong indicator that something isn't balanced very well.

What took the most time was constantly going back and forth switching priorities around to get what I wanted, instead of moving a few karma/bp points here and there. Priority is no easier, and most of the timesink of chargen is on selecting gear anyway.

[Epicedion]

What took the most time was constantly going back and forth switching priorities around to get what I wanted, instead of moving a few karma/bp points here and there. Priority is no easier, and most of the timesink of chargen is on selecting gear anyway.

At risk of sounding overly simplistic, you're doing it wrong. Set your priorities as a sweeping generalization -- what's most and least important. Build from there. Want huge tech? Resources A. Most skilled badass? Skills A. Etc.