Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[quentra]

A database that couldn't been installed with the patch, right? Or in the case of medkits, 'Rating 3 or lower medkits can fit in a pocket.'

[Ixal]

A database that couldn't been installed with the patch, right? Or in the case of medkits, 'Rating 3 or lower medkits can fit in a pocket.'

It could, see the rating 3 medkit.
But that would cost more in production. And, a medkit also needs a wireless connection to operate on its own, something the trauma patches are supposed to do by design.

So without wireless:
Limit expert systems can provide good guesses and advise, but are not 100% effective and/or still need a trained medical person to make decisions.

When wireless:
They have access to much better expert systems which are too power hungry/not cost effective to put on the patch/medkit itself and a huge medical database enabling the kit/patch to operate itself.

That looks fine to me. I agree that some wireless bonuses are silly, but that one imo isn't.

[Voran]

If your glass of water is wireless connected, you get a +1 Dp bonus to drink it.

sorry about all the RFID tags though.

[Shadow Knight]

If your glass of water is wireless connected, you get a +1 Dp bonus to drink it.

sorry about all the RFID tags though.

How many times do i have to ask people to get back on target. This topic is not supposed to be a bitch about the lame wireless bonus rules. I agree they suck. We are supposed to be talking about Tacnet rules here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Novocrane]

How many times do i have to ask people to get back on target. This topic is not supposed to be a bitch about the lame wireless bonus rules. I agree they suck. We are supposed to be talking about Tacnet rules here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I bet having a less controversial and more focused thread header would go a long way towards that. Who'd have thunk it?

[Shadow Knight]

I bet having a less controversial and more focused thread header would go a long way towards that. Who'd have thunk it?

so you did not read the whole header eh?

[Novocrane]

so you did not read the whole header eh?

Lofi reader, so sue me. It still looks like this even if you back your words up afterwards.

Replying to Wireless bonus rules suck.

[RHat]

How many times do i have to ask people to get back on target. This topic is not supposed to be a bitch about the lame wireless bonus rules. I agree they suck. We are supposed to be talking about Tacnet rules here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think part of the problem is that you've been looking to enforce a design ideal, rather than discuss one - which says to anyone who doesn't completely agree with your notion of the design goals that their suggestions are not welcome. That's NEVER a good way to get brainstorming going.

[Shadow Knight]

I think part of the problem is that you've been looking to enforce a design ideal, rather than discuss one - which says to anyone who doesn't completely agree with your notion of the design goals that their suggestions are not welcome. That's NEVER a good way to get brainstorming going.

When you go in directions that make absolutely no sense I am going to call you on it.

I am still waiting for the answer to the question do you plug your computer into the raw internet or do you use a router? Why would you expose your cyberware to the raw matrix? Does that seem wise to you? There are basic computer security methods one should use. and those methods would not change. Because it makes financial sense to make one piece of hardware that is hardened vs. attack and route everything else through that. Rather than creating many avenues of attack. You also would not rely on the matrix to connect all of your cyberware together. That is beyond dumb. You would wire it together internally. It is way more expensive to include a radio into every piece of cyberware and have it route all of the data for controlling it via the matrix. Sorry the round trip time alone would be longer than sending data down the internal wire.

And my topic I can set the parameters.

[RHat]

First, you better believe that those parameters can and will shift on you - nobody gets to control the direction of a discussion, and if you want any good brainstorming to happen, you NEVER make the attempt to do so. And you don't get to be the arbiter of sense. Besides, in brainstorming, you don't say an idea doesn't make sense; that's not helpful. You wait until you have a reasonably developed idea before you look at the question of what you have to do to make it make sense. Note the difference.

And guess what: Slaving is like putting your gear behind a router. If that's the issue to you, then clearly an integral part of the fix is to expand slaving for security purposes. Further, saying that interconnection between isn't a grounds for wireless bonus doesn't mean that there can't be a grounds. For example, there's a lot of reasons why you'd want a visual sensor like cyber-eyes to get online (aspects of distributed computing can come into play to dramatically alter the algorithms that can be used, for example, and external data can allow for something like SR4's Sensor Software but better).

That said: A built-in wireless transceiver in 2074 is gonna be cheap as hell (look at RFIDs), and now that nano-surgery is gone wiring everything together inside your body has gotten a lot more difficult. And given the level of security in SR5's Matrix (a person has to basically be of genius intelligence, furnished with very expensive equipment, and have a highly uncommon set of skills in which they are quite good to be a threat to your ware - or they have to be a technomancer, which is a hell of a lot rarer).

One of the most important things: You're applying modern paradigms. Stop - they are not relevant. The entirety of computing technology, and computer security, was burned to the ground and built back up from scratch TWICE. Other than very high level concepts (which do NOT favour your argument), nothing can be assumed to be the same.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I won't dispute that it's goofy but how else do you rationalize a lump of chemical impregnated adhesive gauze working better when it can connect to the matrix?

You really can't. That is the issue.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

When you go in directions that make absolutely no sense I am going to call you on it.

I am still waiting for the answer to the question do you plug your computer into the raw internet or do you use a router? Why would you expose your cyberware to the raw matrix? Does that seem wise to you? There are basic computer security methods one should use. and those methods would not change. Because it makes financial sense to make one piece of hardware that is hardened vs. attack and route everything else through that. Rather than creating many avenues of attack. You also would not rely on the matrix to connect all of your cyberware together. That is beyond dumb. You would wire it together internally. It is way more expensive to include a radio into every piece of cyberware and have it route all of the data for controlling it via the matrix. Sorry the round trip time alone would be longer than sending data down the internal wire.

And my topic I can set the parameters.

Obviously, in SR5, you plug directly to the Matrix.

[Ixal]

You really can't. That is the issue.

I am still wondering where the idea comes from that a trauma patch is just a piece of fabric and glue.
Do people also believe that putting a cork into bullet wounds counts as healing?

[Sendaz]

Do people also believe that putting a cork into bullet wounds counts as healing?

Depends, is the cork running with wireless on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ixal]

Depends, is the cork running with wireless on? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Of course it has.
It even has a Smartlink for those situations where you really want to impress when opening a bottle of champagne.

[Shadow Knight]

First, you better believe that those parameters can and will shift on you - nobody gets to control the direction of a discussion, and if you want any good brainstorming to happen, you NEVER make the attempt to do so. And you don't get to be the arbiter of sense. Besides, in brainstorming, you don't say an idea doesn't make sense; that's not helpful. You wait until you have a reasonably developed idea before you look at the question of what you have to do to make it make sense. Note the difference.

And guess what: Slaving is like putting your gear behind a router. If that's the issue to you, then clearly an integral part of the fix is to expand slaving for security purposes. Further, saying that interconnection between isn't a grounds for wireless bonus doesn't mean that there can't be a grounds. For example, there's a lot of reasons why you'd want a visual sensor like cyber-eyes to get online (aspects of distributed computing can come into play to dramatically alter the algorithms that can be used, for example, and external data can allow for something like SR4's Sensor Software but better).

That said: A built-in wireless transceiver in 2074 is gonna be cheap as hell (look at RFIDs), and now that nano-surgery is gone wiring everything together inside your body has gotten a lot more difficult. And given the level of security in SR5's Matrix (a person has to basically be of genius intelligence, furnished with very expensive equipment, and have a highly uncommon set of skills in which they are quite good to be a threat to your ware - or they have to be a technomancer, which is a hell of a lot rarer).

One of the most important things: You're applying modern paradigms. Stop - they are not relevant. The entirety of computing technology, and computer security, was burned to the ground and built back up from scratch TWICE. Other than very high level concepts (which do NOT favour your argument), nothing can be assumed to be the same.

The problem is when you turn on wireless on your cyber eyes they are now an avenue for hacking. Turn on the wireless on your wired reflexes oo another door. and it does not matter if the item is slaved. Because the inherent quality to wireless is that just like wifi All you need to hack the network is to have one item have a flaw in its software or hardware and you are open to hacking. Slaving will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to prevent that. Physically wiring things together is the only way to insure security. you plug your comlink into your datajack. And that is how you get connectivity and security for your cyberware. Any other method leads to massive security risk and is outright stupid and no shadowrunner would do it any other way. sorry. You can keep trying to sell the idea to me but it will always fall flat on its face for the simple reason more wireless transmitters mean more ways to get hacked. And only an idiot would open themselves up to that kind of hacking. Slaving does not fix the problem.

Fundamental security methodology will not change. It has not changed in thousands of years. The premise of 5th on wireless is flawed at its core. Think about it... The claim is we want to make things more hackable. So we are going to force a flawed security model on the player base to make gear more hackable... And then you are going to try and claim the security is fine. It obviously is not fine because the goal is to make things more hackable. Your logic is circular and flawed at its very core and prove my thinking is actually the method that would be used. Not 5ths. Because a corporation sure as hell is not going to rewrite the matrix to make it less secure for their security teams...Which is just what you are trying to sell.

[RHat]

Fundamental security methodology is to find the balance point between vulnerability and usability. If you gain enough benefit from setting your cybereyes to wireless, fundamental security methodology says you do it, and secure it as best as you can.

[Epicedion]

The problem is when you turn on wireless on your cyber eyes they are now an avenue for hacking. Turn on the wireless on your wired reflexes oo another door. and it does not matter if the item is slaved. Because the inherent quality to wireless is that just like wifi All you need to hack the network is to have one item have a flaw in its software or hardware and you are open to hacking. Slaving will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to prevent that. Physically wiring things together is the only way to insure security. you plug your comlink into your datajack. And that is how you get connectivity and security for your cyberware. Any other method leads to massive security risk and is outright stupid and no shadowrunner would do it any other way. sorry. You can keep trying to sell the idea to me but it will always fall flat on its face for the simple reason more wireless transmitters mean more ways to get hacked. And only an idiot would open themselves up to that kind of hacking. Slaving does not fix the problem.

Fundamental security methodology will not change. It has not changed in thousands of years. The premise of 5th on wireless is flawed at its core. Think about it... The claim is we want to make things more hackable. So we are going to force a flawed security model on the player base to make gear more hackable... And then you are going to try and claim the security is fine. It obviously is not fine because the goal is to make things more hackable. Your logic is circular and flawed at its very core and prove my thinking is actually the method that would be used. Not 5ths. Because a corporation sure as hell is not going to rewrite the matrix to make it less secure for their security teams...Which is just what you are trying to sell.

It's less secure in one way, but more secure in another. The number of daisy-chained commlinks sporting a dozen agents has gone down to zero, meaning the ratio of potential threats to credible threats approaches 1. That is, anyone that's detected as a potential threat (performs illegal matrix action) is very likely a credible threat and should be dealt with appropriately. This allows limited security resources and responses to be very focused. GOD is slow but inevitable -- 10 or so decent matrix defense rolls will likely bring the hammer down, which generally means deckers won't be hanging out in your host all day running the show like in olden times.

Regarding gear, corporations have hosts they can have their personnel slave their gear to, centralizing all their matrix security and providing overwatch from comfy chairs. Actually this puts the security personnel at a distinct advantage compared to a team of runners who has to carry matrix security around with them.

[Ixal]

Because the inherent quality to wireless is that just like wifi All you need to hack the network is to have one item have a flaw in its software or hardware and you are open to hacking. Slaving will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to prevent that.

Maybe I have to reread the hacking chapter but I don't see how this is true in SR5.
While you may have several devices slaved to the same comlink or deck, getting one of them hacked doesn't mean that the others become more vulnerable. They still defend with the comlinks firewall like before. The only downside is that the hacker also gets marks on your comlink.

[Voran]

I do understand the desire to discard the daisy chaining stuff, though yeah, the problem I potentially see is more through the introduction of hosts. Any location worth hitting has a host that can provide benefits equal or better to a fairlight. Which then suddenly makes it less possible for the decker on the ground to brick things anyway if they're slaved to the host. Just as runners slave their gear to their decker, so can security grunts to their host/spider/decker. And even if the decker is slightly less skilled, they're running equal or more dice than the PC.

[Shadow Knight]

Maybe I have to reread the hacking chapter but I don't see how this is true in SR5.
While you may have several devices slaved to the same comlink or deck, getting one of them hacked doesn't mean that the others become more vulnerable. They still defend with the comlinks firewall like before. The only downside is that the hacker also gets marks on your comlink.

More vectors for someone to exploit. Just like a house with more doors and windows means more possible ways for a person to get into your house.

[Shadow Knight]

It's less secure in one way, but more secure in another. The number of daisy-chained commlinks sporting a dozen agents has gone down to zero, meaning the ratio of potential threats to credible threats approaches 1. That is, anyone that's detected as a potential threat (performs illegal matrix action) is very likely a credible threat and should be dealt with appropriately. This allows limited security resources and responses to be very focused. GOD is slow but inevitable -- 10 or so decent matrix defense rolls will likely bring the hammer down, which generally means deckers won't be hanging out in your host all day running the show like in olden times.

Regarding gear, corporations have hosts they can have their personnel slave their gear to, centralizing all their matrix security and providing overwatch from comfy chairs. Actually this puts the security personnel at a distinct advantage compared to a team of runners who has to carry matrix security around with them.

Slaving your gear to something is not going to make that gear more secure. Sorry. If their is a vulnerability in your hardware a hacker can exploit. Slaving it will not change that.

[Shadow Knight]

Fundamental security methodology is to find the balance point between vulnerability and usability. If you gain enough benefit from setting your cybereyes to wireless, fundamental security methodology says you do it, and secure it as best as you can.

And there is no new functionality in the cyberware that would require matrix access. No amount of stamping your feet is going to change that. All of the functionality existed with out matrix access 3 years earlier.

And you still have not answered my question. Probably because you know I am right.

[Epicedion]

Slaving your gear to something is not going to make that gear more secure. Sorry. If their is a vulnerability in your hardware a hacker can exploit. Slaving it will not change that.

Exploit, yes. Exploit easily, no.

A local corporate host can easily have Firewall 10, which is yards better than other devices. Slave yourself to the Firewall 10 host, and voila, your gear is more secure.

And there is no new functionality in the cyberware that would require matrix access. No amount of stamping your feet is going to change that. All of the functionality existed with out matrix access 3 years earlier.

And you still have not answered my question. Probably because you know I am right.

20 years ago wired reflexes let you act 3 times in combat before anyone else could act. Explain that change.

[RHat]

And there is no new functionality in the cyberware that would require matrix access. No amount of stamping your feet is going to change that. All of the functionality existed with out matrix access 3 years earlier.

And you still have not answered my question. Probably because you know I am right.

Mechanical changes don't always (and in this case don't) represent in universe changes - and in a few cases, there's some minor retcons. The standard/throwback functionality is, in-setting, all the functionality they had, and the wireless stuff is new. Taking away functionality on a meta level only to add it back with the wireless bonuses is a poor implementation, but don't try to pretend it exists as an in-world shift.

And I didn't SEE any question. Looked back at that post, and still don't.