Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[Voran]

I suppose I get it. In some cases I can see why a wireless bonus might be applicable, but as appropriate, there are also some devices/cyber/etc that don't really have any reason to be wireless other than a desire to link everything to a common monitor or somesuch.

If my cybereyes are requiring a fricking adobe or java update every fricking day, that's a bad thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Medicineman]

20 years ago wired reflexes let you act 3 times in combat before anyone else could act. Explain that change.

SR4 has never been the descendant of SR3 it used completely new Rules and with these new Rules came other results
BUT SR5 is continuing SR4A (SR4A Ends in December 2074 SR5 starts January 2075) it uses the same Basic Frame orf Rules
So it makes no sense that Cyberware is suddenly 3 times, 5 Times or even 10 Times more expensive,
or that Suddenly there is no more Skin Link
(one of my converted Chars bought some packages of Skinlink in August 2074 I wonder why and how they suddenly disappeared)
Raised Skills (up to 12),different Modifiers, even different Initiative is ok (ImO) but some of the Rules Mechanics make ab.so.lutely. NO Sense (to Me)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Epicedion]

SR4 has never been the descendant of SR3 it used completely new Rules and with these new Rules came other results

You can't say this for one edition transition and not say it for another when you're talking about expectations shifting from edition to edition.

[Medicineman]

You can't say this for one edition transition and not say it for another when you're talking about expectations shifting from edition to edition.

It wasn't me but CGL who said that
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
But I do agree with them though

HougH!
Medicineman

[IKerensky]

So it makes no sense that Cyberware is suddenly 3 times, 5 Times or even 10 Times more expensive,
or that Suddenly there is no more Skin Link
(one of my converted Chars bought some packages of Skinlink in August 2074 I wonder why and how they suddenly disappeared)

HokaHey
Medicineman

Because he never buy them in the first place ? Because august 2074 in SR5 is different than august 2074 in SR4A.

Cyberware is not 3 to 10 Times more expensive... That the price it always was in this new world.

Stop trying to mix timeline continuity and game continuity, they choosed to change the setting and thoses alterations apply retroactively. If you play a scenario from 2060 with SR5 rules then you use SR5 rules.

About the Tacnet, I think the players already benefit from the advantage of a Tacnet at the gaming table, they can talk, coordonnate, are fully aware of the status and health of their teammate and gears, they can pin point target and coordonate fire with an incredible precision, never surprised, no friendly fire, no wasting ammo on an already geeked target... No need to provide them with more benefits.

But, but, but my Decker want to rule the combat as well as the Samouraï or the Mage. Sorry kid, but this is an élite team operation, everyone have his job to do, but Decker one is not to coordinate combat operation while sitting in the middle of the firefight. The Samouraï wont cry because he have nothing to do during the legwork, the face wont cry when he cant do anything to hack security cameras, the mage wont cry when he cant go fish the paydata from the claws of the IC. So stiffen your upper lips and concentrate on doing your job. Tacnet is a reality... But it is specialiste job, military specs, and runners are just singles individual assembled in Rif Raf teams by fixer. They dont work nor fight as well as truly professionnal soldiers.

[Medicineman]

Because he never buy them in the first place ? Because august 2074 in SR5 is different than august 2074 in SR4A.

Which is completely wrong
I played exactly this Char in August 2074 when he bought them.Now I'm playing exactly the same Char a few Month later

For me its something like this
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
only in the possibly worst way
It was never like this with the Change from SR3-->4 because the Ruleframe was completely different and it was a Leap in Time also 2063-->2070 so there was a Leap in continuity and I could easily accept the chnages
Now , the Rules-Frame is nearly the same and there is a continuity in Time
So ther is NO Change at all !!

Cyberware is not 3 to 10 Times more expensive... That the price it always was in this new world.

Well, I see it in a different light for me its a continuity of the two "Shadowrun-Worlds"
In a way its like in the Movies. I never liked Alien Part III because the Alien Queen in Aliens(Part II) was without Eggs and I always wondered where those two eggs came from (and howthe Facehuggers could sense Ripley,Higgs and Newt in their Stasis Cocoon, how they came to cross half the Suleiko, how they could bypass half a dozen Airlocks and why the face Huggers were activated at all.)
Yes, now when I think about it SR5 has at least as many inconsistencies as Alien III
And I would like to "activate" my Suspension of disbelief, but SR5 is not cool enough for me

Stop trying to mix timeline continuity and game continuity, they choosed to change the setting and thoses alterations apply retroactively

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) No, thats quite wrong
CGL definitely said that they continue the Timeline and History. And they did NOT change the Setting !
its not a Star Wars setting or a Deadworld setting, SR5 is still the same Shadowrun setting as in SR4A , what are You talking about ???

With the same Dance as last Year
Medicineman

[IKerensky]

It is still the same Global setting. But there is fine adjustement in balance, economics and game ambiance.

For once, as you noticed, some things that exist in the SR4A never existed in SR5. Thus when you port you character you have to take into account the fact the world is different in this area. The things doesnt´t disappear on New Year Ève, they just never existed in the first place.

Same goes for the Cyberware price... It doesn t change, the balance of the world change and cyberwares are more expensive in the SR5 settings that there was in the SR4 setting. The date you set a scenario in doesn't set the game system and setting you use, the ruleset you use do. You can keep using SR4A rules to play up to 2080, you can use SR5 to play before 2070, but in both case you have to adapt to each game peculiar balance, especially economical.

So what a character buy or did in SR4A need to be Retconned or modified to be compliant with the new settings. Your items dont disappear, your character version in the SR5 world never buy them in the first place... Probably using the money to pay for the costier Cyberware.

[KCKitsune]

Which is completely wrong
I played exactly this Char in August 2074 when he bought them.Now I'm playing exactly the same Char a few Month later

For me its something like this
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
only in the possibly worst way

...snip for brevity...

With the same Dance as last Year
Medicineman

Just do what I'm going to do... NOT play SR5!

I may take a look at some of the rules and "back port" them into SR4, but as a whole, the rule set, IMO, sucks. For those of you who like what CG did... good luck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Stahlseele]

He doesn't have much choice.
As far as i know he is more or less official Supporter for Pegasus.

[Medicineman]

He doesn't have much choice.
As far as i know he is more or less official Supporter for Pegasus.

not more or less, I AM a Supporter of Pegasus Games (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And I always have choices
In my private rounds I'm sure that we're gonna be playing SR5 with (lots of) Houserules some Day
(I 'm not gonna convert and create 10 Chars for SR5 when I'm not sure that I'll be playin' it some Day)



HougH!
Medicineman

[Shadow Knight]

Mechanical changes don't always (and in this case don't) represent in universe changes - and in a few cases, there's some minor retcons. The standard/throwback functionality is, in-setting, all the functionality they had, and the wireless stuff is new. Taking away functionality on a meta level only to add it back with the wireless bonuses is a poor implementation, but don't try to pretend it exists as an in-world shift.

And I didn't SEE any question. Looked back at that post, and still don't.

Do you plug your computer straight into the internet? Or do you use a router like a smart person? Why would you plug your cyberware straight into the internet with no protection? Does that seem wise?

[Jaid]

Do you plug your computer straight into the internet? Or do you use a router like a smart person? Why would you plug your cyberware straight into the internet with no protection? Does that seem wise?

apparently people in the shadowrun setting do that sort of thing all the time. not that it would make a difference, because every single device is specifically designed to pass along everything sent to it anyways.

of course, devices *are* designed to deal with undesirable commands. that's why everything has a firewall rating too.

[RHat]

Do you plug your computer straight into the internet? Or do you use a router like a smart person? Why would you plug your cyberware straight into the internet with no protection? Does that seem wise?

In this metaphor, the commlink you slave it to is the router.

[Shadow Knight]

In this metaphor, the commlink you slave it to is the router.

and the fact that deckers can hack your cyberware proves my point of view is the correct one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

and the fact that deckers can hack your cyberware proves my point of view is the correct one.

And the fact that your Point of View proves correct thoroughly shows how insanely stupid the idea of Wireless Bonuses for Cyberware is. *shrug*

[RHat]

and the fact that deckers can hack your cyberware proves my point of view is the correct one.

Oh, so putting something behind a router is now some sort of perfect protection?

Your point of view is based upon a fundamentally invalid notion of security methodology.

[Jaid]

Oh, so putting something behind a router is now some sort of perfect protection?

Your point of view is based upon a fundamentally invalid notion of security methodology.

hacking my computer won't let you make me blind, or deaf, or turn off my central nervous system (and the aspect of which i am most fond regarding my central nervous system is the part where it works, and, you know... transmits useful messages like telling my lungs to breathe and my heart to beat and my arms and legs to do something about dangerous situations, that sort of thing...)

so yeah, i'll readily admit that i'm prepared to accept less than perfect protection for my computer. the loss of my computer would be quite inconvenient, moderately difficult to replace, but ultimately, isn't likely to render me unable to function.

i am, however, somewhat more dependant on my central nervous system, eyes, and ears, and am inclined to feel slightly more concerned about the possibility of something happening to them.

[RHat]

hacking my computer won't let you make me blind, or deaf, or turn off my central nervous system (and the aspect of which i am most fond regarding my central nervous system is the part where it works, and, you know... transmits useful messages like telling my lungs to breathe and my heart to beat and my arms and legs to do something about dangerous situations, that sort of thing...)

And guess what? Literally nothing in the game makes your CNS hackable, so that's not a concern. Wired Reflexes do not replace your CNS, and having them hacked doesn't do anything to your CNS. As for the eyes and ears, if you could obtain a serious improvement to the visual and aural acuity of the technological replacements you were using in exchange for a 1 in a million chance of it getting hacked once, I'm pretty sure you'd do it - and even if you wouldn't, 99.9% of people would.

[SpellBinder]

This came to mind reading your post, Jaid: Ever get the burning sensation just behind your eyes?

From page 228 on Bricking: "Devices that are bricked never fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles, nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are common features of a device in the process of becoming a brick."

So just what happens to the meat when one's cybereyes, control rig, or commlink that's in your brain gets bricked? Or your whole nervous system throughout your body when your wired reflexes is bricked? Or your spine when your reaction enhancers is bricked?

[RHat]

This came to mind reading your post, Jaid: Ever get the burning sensation just behind your eyes?

From page 228 on Bricking: "Devices that are bricked never fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles, nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are common features of a device in the process of becoming a brick."

So just what happens to the meat when one's cybereyes, control rig, or commlink that's in your brain gets bricked? Or your whole nervous system throughout your body when your wired reflexes is bricked? Or your spine when your reaction enhancers is bricked?

Nothing in the rules. Perhaps an oversight, or perhaps there's a mismatch between the intent of the fluff and the intent of the rules.

[Medicineman]

and what happens if You Brick a WiFi-ed throwing knife ?

with a smouldering Dance
Medicineman

[Jaid]

And guess what? Literally nothing in the game makes your CNS hackable, so that's not a concern. Wired Reflexes do not replace your CNS, and having them hacked doesn't do anything to your CNS. As for the eyes and ears, if you could obtain a serious improvement to the visual and aural acuity of the technological replacements you were using in exchange for a 1 in a million chance of it getting hacked once, I'm pretty sure you'd do it - and even if you wouldn't, 99.9% of people would.

funny

"By replacing specific, isolated
vertebrae of your spinal column with segments of
superconducting material, your reactions to events become
quicker. Add the Rating of reaction enhancers to
your Reaction attribute (and remember to adjust Initiative
and Physical limit accordingly). Reaction enhancers are
incompatible with all other enhancements to Reaction,
including wired reflexes."

that kinda sounds like it's replacing parts of my spinal column.

"Skillwires are a system of neuromuscular
controllers that overlie the body’s natural nervous system"

as was pointed out above, it seems like the logical result of sparks, smoke, and searing hot metal and melting plastic being applied to my body's natural nervous system just *might* have some drawbacks.

"This highly invasive, painful,
life-changing operation adds a multitude of neural boosters
and adrenaline stimulators in strategic locations
throughout your body"

oh great, so it was painful for them to put it in, and i bet when they put it in it wasn't on fire, either. i'm sure this won't paralyze me for life when it goes up in smoke, though. who knows, maybe having melted plastic and metal dripped onto your nerve endings is good for your health, right?

but yeah, in any event, reaction enhancers specifically do replace parts of your spinal column. brick them, and there goes most of your ability to move. granted, it's not your entire central nervous system, but it's certainly enough of it that i for one would think twice about putting it online if i was the kind of person who actually stood to gain any benefit from having it online (ie, if i was the kind of person that actually had both wired reflexes and reaction enhancers, that being the only reason either of those two implants would ever be online).

and incidentally, the only function of cybereyes that is superior to having the right set of glasses is a smartlink. yet another device that puts me rather outside of the group that can expect to have a 99.9% chance of never being hacked.

and the cyberear abilities that aren't available in headphones? none of them need wireless either.

so no, i don't imagine i would be putting my eyes and ears online.

[RHat]

Yeah, the logical result in some cases of the presented fluff might be paralysis, but that is not and should not become the rules as they are written. Reaction Enhancers may not provide any benefit over and above the norm, for example, if they've been bricked, but much like a katana is still sharp the enhancers are still generally conductive.

Let's not pretend the actual written consequences are worse than they are. As for cybereyes/cyberears, I very rarely see ANY reason to take them in the first place because in almost all cases glasses and contacts are just as good. Might be fair to suggest that they need to have some sort of general boost in the first place. And as far as things to slave to the decker's deck go (to get the best protection you can), wireless 'ware is a prime candidate.

[Epicedion]

Yeah, the logical result in some cases of the presented fluff might be paralysis, but that is not and should not become the rules as they are written. Reaction Enhancers may not provide any benefit over and above the norm, for example, if they've been bricked, but much like a katana is still sharp the enhancers are still generally conductive.

Let's not pretend the actual written consequences are worse than they are. As for cybereyes/cyberears, I very rarely see ANY reason to take them in the first place because in almost all cases glasses and contacts are just as good. Might be fair to suggest that they need to have some sort of general boost in the first place. And as far as things to slave to the decker's deck go (to get the best protection you can), wireless 'ware is a prime candidate.

Cybereyes and ears win on capacity. Glasses and earbuds just can't fit every upgrade.

[RHat]

Cybereyes and ears win on capacity. Glasses and earbuds just can't fit every upgrade.

Ah, but you can combine multiple options (goggles and contacts, earbuds and a microphone...).