Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[Shadow Knight]

Trying to stay within SR5 as much as possible, I see a TacNet doing several things. First, it functions as a micro-host, hiding and protecting all it its members at its device rating while still providing slaved devices online matrix access.. Second it allows secure communications. Third, it could provide a shared initiative pool based upon its rating. Members of the net could draw from the pool to automatically aim for example. The TacNet could provide team limit and BD pools based upon its rating as well. As a complex action, the TacNet operator could make a leadership or some other test TBD to refresh the pool (it doesn't automatically refresh). These pools, could be attacked and depleted (2 marks) or stolen (3 marks) by opposing hackers. Also, a compromised TacNet would give an opposing hacker complete access to the squad's logistics and allow him to directly attack/manipulate slaved devices.

Finally, a TacNet would require a minimum number of inputs per device rating to operate (additional inputs would exceed the TacNet's ability to adequately process, thus providing no additional bonus. A TacNet who's inputs begin to drop off degrade to the next lower rating that it has the necessary inputs to function at.

I realize this needs some fleshing out, but I think it could be a good starting framework.

Like it.

It should also automatically prioritize targets. A character with tactics can improve things in someway based on the incoming data. IE do a better job prioritizing targets. Directing flanking manuevers etc.

[RHat]

Why would you say that? It is common sense, and basic security, that you run with Wireless off. See, you cannot be detected that way if you do. Seems like that will be the rule, rather than the exception, unless you are running something like a Tacnet or Communications (which is obvious, of course, but which do not need to be activated until actually needed). Any Shadowrunner running active is just asking to be shot, found, bricked, etc. Seems pretty counterproductive to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Notice that I'm specific referring not to runners, but to the opposition. It's not until about PR5 or in some rare cases PR4 that I'd really expect that to be a concern worth forgoing the bonuses - it's really useful to a even a veteran cop, for example, to be able to boost his visual and aural acuity as well as to get just a little bit better function out of his sidearm, so given the rarity of hackers it's worth the (actually near-zero) risk.

[Shadow Knight]

Notice that I'm specific referring not to runners, but to the opposition. It's not until about PR5 or in some rare cases PR4 that I'd really expect that to be a concern worth forgoing the bonuses - it's really useful to a even a veteran cop, for example, to be able to boost his visual and aural acuity as well as to get just a little bit better function out of his sidearm, so given the rarity of hackers it's worth the (actually near-zero) risk.

The wireless bonuses do not accomplish their goal and are implemented in a retarded fashion. All the functionality already worked sans Matrix access before. and no matter how many times you stamp your feet the corporation would not dumb down the functionality. It would be suicide to do so because some corp would offer non dumbed down gear and make a killing.

[RHat]

The wireless bonuses do not accomplish their goal and are implemented in a retarded fashion. All the functionality already worked sans Matrix access before. and no matter how many times you stamp your feet the corporation would not dumb down the functionality. It would be suicide to do so because some corp would offer non dumbed down gear and make a killing.

Never said it was a good implementation - bonuses should have been new functionality. Though it does raise the question... Smartlink would then be Limit+2, and what else? Include the functionality of the Mark 74 (no friendly fire)? Improve Take Aim somehow? Diminish range penalties?

But keep in mind, in setting there's been no loss of functionality - the functionality has been retconned.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Notice that I'm specific referring not to runners, but to the opposition. It's not until about PR5 or in some rare cases PR4 that I'd really expect that to be a concern worth forgoing the bonuses - it's really useful to a even a veteran cop, for example, to be able to boost his visual and aural acuity as well as to get just a little bit better function out of his sidearm, so given the rarity of hackers it's worth the (actually near-zero) risk.

What I think you are missing is that it is not a Near-Zero Chance. Hackers are likely to be more numerous than Magicians. as such, it is not a near zero chance that they will have issues.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Never said it was a good implementation - bonuses should have been new functionality. Though it does raise the question... Smartlink would then be Limit+2, and what else? Include the functionality of the Mark 74 (no friendly fire)? Improve Take Aim somehow? Diminish range penalties?

But keep in mind, in setting there's been no loss of functionality - the functionality has been retconned.

Nope... Smartlink would have been +2 Dice base (you know, like it was before), with a +2 Limit Wireless. Makes a LOT more sense, considering the premise of the Smartlink.

And that is where you are missing the boat. Since there is a Conversion Guide, they SHOULD work as they did before. Since they do not, the developers dropped the ball. There is discontinuity. Again, Wireless Bonuses were chosen by the author strictly for what he thought were cool ideas, rather than trying to make sense. Since he had no direction, and since the Line Developer was either incapable or unwilling to provide more guidance, we ended up with the crap we have now. Shame, really, because SR5 could have really been amazing (there are some outstanding ideas, that were just not implemented in any sensible way). Well, it is still amazing, but not in the way they intended it to be. It is possible that it could have ended up worse than it did, but not by much.

[RHat]

What I think you are missing is that it is not a Near-Zero Chance. Hackers are likely to be more numerous than Magicians. as such, it is not a near zero chance that they will have issues.

If they are more numerous than Magicians, it's not going to be by a factor of more than 2 or 3. Given that Magicians are only a portion of what is already only 1 percent of the population... The odds of any given iiindividual being hacked are near zero.

Nope... Smartlink would have been +2 Dice base (you know, like it was before), with a +2 Limit Wireless. Makes a LOT more sense, considering the premise of the Smartlink.

And that is where you are missing the boat. Since there is a Conversion Guide, they SHOULD work as they did before. Since they do not, the developers dropped the ball. There is discontinuity. Again, Wireless Bonuses were chosen by the author strictly for what he thought were cool ideas, rather than trying to make sense. Since he had no direction, and since the Line Developer was either incapable or unwilling to provide more guidance, we ended up with the crap we have now. Shame, really, because SR5 could have really been amazing (there are some outstanding ideas, that were just not implemented in any sensible way). Well, it is still amazing, but not in the way they intended it to be. It is possible that it could have ended up worse than it did, but not by much.

Nope. The Smartlink change is actually part of a design goal entirely separate from the wireless bonuses, and as such (based on what we've been told, anyways) was set to be a Limit modifier before wireless bonuses were a thing.

And we can argue whether the retcons are good or not, but it must be acknowledged that they occurred - and thus there can be no line of reasoning following from an in-setting change on this score.

[SpellBinder]

Speaking of the conversion guide, did anyone else notice it's possible for a starting hacker character in SR4 to get a Fairlight Excalibur cyberdeck for free once converted to SR5?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Speaking of the conversion guide, did anyone else notice it's possible for a starting hacker character in SR4 to get a Fairlight Excalibur cyberdeck for free once converted to SR5?

Yep, My Cyberlogician would have one (and a straight conversion of my 20 Karma Newb would have one as well, if I converted, rather than rebuilt, which I did). But alas, he cannot be converted until many more books come out. *sigh*
Should not matter, though, as I do not see me playing much in SR5. *shrug*

[Shadow Knight]

Never said it was a good implementation - bonuses should have been new functionality. Though it does raise the question... Smartlink would then be Limit+2, and what else? Include the functionality of the Mark 74 (no friendly fire)? Improve Take Aim somehow? Diminish range penalties?

But keep in mind, in setting there's been no loss of functionality - the functionality has been retconned.

Cookie cutter IE prevent friendly fire would be what I would have done.

I don't care if they retconned. Retcon is a admitting their idea is in a word... Stupid. If you are retconning you are being lazy. take the time to move the clock forward in an intelligent manner.

[RHat]

I don't care if the retcon. Retcon is a admitting their idea is in a word... Stupid. If you are retconning you are being lazy.

... No, just not. Deciding, as they did, that there are to be far fewer dice pool bonuses is a legitimate design decision. It leaves two options: Either retcon the way things were in the old edition, or some up with a reason for the change. In the case of gear, the latter is largely untenable and thus the former is the only option.

[phlapjack77]

Nope. The Smartlink change is actually part of a design goal entirely separate from the wireless bonuses, and as such (based on what we've been told, anyways) was set to be a Limit modifier before wireless bonuses were a thing.

Just purely curious - where did you see this?

[RHat]

Just purely curious - where did you see this?

Dev blogs back before SR5, if I'm remembering it right. Might have been a forum post, but I'm pretty sure it was the blogs.

[phlapjack77]

Dev blogs back before SR5, if I'm remembering it right. Might have been a forum post, but I'm pretty sure it was the blogs.

I see - thanks!

[RHat]

I see - thanks!

Relatedly, I seem to recall Neurosis mentioning here on DS that when he was writing the wireless bonuses in many cases putting the old functionality back in just seemed like a natural fit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

... No, just not. Deciding, as they did, that there are to be far fewer dice pool bonuses is a legitimate design decision. It leaves two options: Either retcon the way things were in the old edition, or some up with a reason for the change. In the case of gear, the latter is largely untenable and thus the former is the only option.

Except that that is not what happened. My Rebuild of "The Suit" (A Veteran level Hacker, 10 years as a fudiciary functionary - 16 Received Karma) ended up with MORE DICE than the SR4A version had, with the same level of competency (And had I converted instead of rebuilt He would have netted even MORE Dice). So, if their desing goal was to reduce the DP's, they failed epically (though to be fair, had I tried to push to the obscene levels of DP often seen in SR4A, it would have possibly not gone up much, if at all). And that is the problem. Limits do not do what they are supposed to do (And I still maintain that hey are a stupid idea), and the DPs became bigger. So, tell me... How is the retcon "The one and true way?"

[IKerensky]

If you want to reduce the dice pool you need to get back the TN, with the simple correction that you dont count the first reroll as +6 but +5 to preserve the linearity.

This way you wont need the extra large pool to achieve the statistical repartition.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you want to reduce the dice pool you need to get back the TN, with the simple correction that you dont count the first reroll as +6 but +5 to preserve the linearity.

This way you wont need the extra large pool to achieve the statistical repartition.

Well, I hate Variable TN, so that is not an issue, and the DP issue is not one at our table, generally. The Big Issue I have with it, is hat it was a HYPED up feature of the New System, and yet, with equal level of skill, the character ended up woth MORE dice. Kinda counterintuitive, don't you think. And with the elimination of the DP Bonuses you can get with the Nanite Boosters,and replacing htem with Skill focus from Adept (Same Bonus Total), the DP's should have sstayed the same, but in the end, the DP went up. That is a Fail in design principle. But, like I said previously, since I never really maxed out the potential of the character, the DP increase is not that surprising, since skills were essentially doubled in effect. Had the character been min-maxed to hell and back, I MIGHT have actually seen a decrease in DP. I don't know. I would have to go back to see how stupid powerful I COULD have made him in SR4A. And maybe that is the Crux of the Issue. Maybe the ultimate DP has been reduced.

[BigGreenSquid]

Has anyone seen a justification/intent behind why the skill system was changed? Other than diluting the benefit of DP bonuses, it doesn't seem like it fixes anything or speeds things up at all.

[Sendaz]

More potential to grow I think was the reason given.


go here for the article I remember.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Has anyone seen a justification/intent behind why the skill system was changed? Other than diluting the benefit of DP bonuses, it doesn't seem like it fixes anything or speeds things up at all.

A LOT of players were very upset about the 9 point swing of Normal Skills (sans Adepts - you could go from Unaware to 7 in Skill) because this "just did not allow any advancement for character builds," which was BS from the start, because everyone wanted to start out Best in the World, so of course there was no room to go up. Now we have a 15 point swing (Unaware to 13), which is just dumb, in my opinion, as that only gives EVEN MORE DP bloat. *sigh*

[BigGreenSquid]

More potential to grow I think was the reason given.

go here for the article I remember.

Thanx, I appreciate that. Thinking back on it, I have always played an awakened character or a technomancer, so having an excess of karma have never been a problem. With that explanation I have no problem at all with that change....

Now, on to TacNets, game mechanics wise, what do they do (a bit of rehash with some extra details):

1. A TacNet is a micro-host. As a micro-host it lacks an Attack Attribute, but as a host it can be hidden. When a character joints the TacNet, their icon enters the host and is thereby hidden by the host. Since a normal host is large and usually like a building, I imagine a TacNet could look like a command tent, communications van or mobile command center R.V. depending on the size and scope of the TacNet.

2. Members of a TacNet gain the benefits of being wireless but cannot be hacked from outside the TacNet. If the TacNet has been compromised, connected devices are wide open for attack.

3. A TacNet is an encrypted communications channel. Information shared within the TacNet cannot be intercepted from outside the TacNet, so the party can freely chat at the table without fear of being eavesdropped. However, should an opposing hacker find the TacNet and hack their way in (usually scripted to look like a CiC), they have free access to "over hear" all communications and see all of the displays.

3. A TacNet has minimum requirements:

Device Rating / Sensor Platforms / # of Sensors
1 / 3 / 9
2 / 6 / 18
3 / 9 / 27
4 / 12 / 36
5 / 15 / 45
6 / 18 / 54

In order to be considered a sensor platform the persona/device/drone must provide a minimum of 2 sensory inputs to the TacNet.

4. A TacNet makes an automatic teamwork test (device rating x2) for all actions that could be reasonably assisted. (This idea needs some more work/clarification, I know. Just throwing it out there)

5. Based on its device rating it provides the net a pool of 1 free simple action/rating to be used on things like aiming or 5 initiative points to be used for interrupts. So a rating 4 TacNet could provide 3 simple actions and 5 initiative points, 1 simple actions and 15 initiative points, or any other combination.

6. A TacNet provides a shared pool of bonus dice equal to its rating.

7. A TacNet provides a shared pool of limit increases equal to its rating.

8. A member of the TacNet may only take one bonus from the net per IP.

9. The TacNet pools do not automatically refresh, but are only refreshed by a leadership roll.

10. An enemy hacker with 2 marks may destroy bonuses and with 3 marks may steal them for himself or his TacNet.

Thoughts?

[RHat]

Except that that is not what happened. My Rebuild of "The Suit" (A Veteran level Hacker, 10 years as a fudiciary functionary - 16 Received Karma) ended up with MORE DICE than the SR4A version had, with the same level of competency (And had I converted instead of rebuilt He would have netted even MORE Dice). So, if their desing goal was to reduce the DP's, they failed epically (though to be fair, had I tried to push to the obscene levels of DP often seen in SR4A, it would have possibly not gone up much, if at all). And that is the problem. Limits do not do what they are supposed to do (And I still maintain that hey are a stupid idea), and the DPs became bigger. So, tell me... How is the retcon "The one and true way?"

"Reducing dice pools" and "reducing dice pool bonuses" are two very different things. And I'm not saying whether it was right or not - I'm saying that the change to Smartlinks and other similar gear is completely independent of the wireless bonuses.

[Medicineman]

... So, if their desing goal was to reduce the DP's, they failed epically (though to be fair, had I tried to push to the obscene levels of DP often seen in SR4A, it would have possibly not gone up much, if at all). And that is the problem. ..

IIRC it was never the Intention of CGL to lessen the Dicepool but to lessen the ...outside Influence (from Gimmick like Smartlink or Climbing Claws, from Emotitoys, etc) to the Dicepool.
And they succeeded in doing so.
Its totally right to be angry/mad at CGL for what they've done to Shadowrun but You should be angry/mad from the right reasons (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with the right Dance
Medicineman

[KCKitsune]

"Reducing dice pools" and "reducing dice pool bonuses" are two very different things. And I'm not saying whether it was right or not - I'm saying that the change to Smartlinks and other similar gear is completely independent of the wireless bonuses.

Except the bonus from the smartlink makes NO sense! Those that are affected by the limit don't need it 90% of the time and those that don't hit the limit get no bonus from it.