Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For most of here, we are well aware the wireless rules suck. As for the yesmen, nothing that is said will change them from towing the company line. As I have read through this post, it seems like the yesmen have made a concerted effort to draw the discussion away from the development of a good TacNet system or anything else that would replace the retartedness of the RAW.

So, wireless sux, how do we fix it?

Burn it to the ground?
Honestly, with the implementation explanations currently present, there is not much you can do. Easiest way, I guess, would be to replace all mentions of Wireless Bonuses due to Matrix Connection, with Functionality that relies upon Interconnectedness, through either DNI or PAN connectivity. That removes most of the lunacy that is Matrix Wireless Bonuses. Then, Hacking requires you to bust the PAN prior to screwing with anything inside the PAN. Again, that layered defense (Can't touch the Smartlink, until you have access to the PAN and found the connectivity).

In the End, you take the Underlying Principle of the Matrix Rebuild (the Grids, the way programs work now, fix Technomancer issues), re-introduce layered Defenses on Hosts/Devices (because having everything on a single layer is stupid), Remove Wireless Bonuses that are completely ludicrous (Things like Communications make sense to be wireless, obviously), and then scrap the stupid economy that came along with SR5 (Decks are stupid expensive), and that is a good start.

[Epicedion]

And we're apparently back to SR4 being the One True Edition, even though in the context of the game as a whole it presents itself as an extreme deviation from the norm. Wonderful.

[quentra]

Epic, I would love to see why you consider cyberware hacking a good thing. Or a necessary thing. Perhaps if the total effect of a cyberware hack was needing to spend a simple or complex to reboot, sure, that would have been acceptable (and pretty nifty), but the way it's presented makes the entire thing useless. I don't mind combat hacking at all. There's a scene in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex where the Major hacks Batou in order to make him punch himself that always struck me as something supremely cyberpunk, but as it is, a decker can seriously fuck a samurai's day up without a second thought.

Yeah, RAW says all it takes is an extended test with a toolkit - but that just doesn't hold when it comes to implanted fucking 'ware. I'm not even touching the wireless bonuses, the idiocy of some of those have been covered in long length on other threads. Once again, the issue isn't the goddamn combat hacking itself, it's the absolutely atrocious implementation of such.

Here's a few thoughts on how to implement it a bit better - refine the bonuses into something not retarded, allow a WAN to be networked between a crew and provide situational bonuses, and make combat bricking action denial rather than a trip to the cyberdoc after every encounter with a secdecker.

[Dolanar]

I am thinking of just changing the words "wireless" to "DNI link" for most of that seeing as if its connected to my Pan, chances are my pan is connected wirelessly to the matrix.

Also as a quick thought: any given wireless device has a damage track of 8+(1/2 DR). Aside from commlinks & Decks & a few other things the highest Device Rating you can have is 5 which makes a total Track of 10. Meanwhile a basic Decker's Rating 6 Program does 6+net hits (limit) damage. so on average, a hacker can possibly one shot any given peice of Cyber assuming he's not fighting another Decker.

[SpellBinder]

i do wonder what would happen with a bricked move by wire system?

Considering the evasiveness of this bodyware implant, you'll probably become a quadriplegic. That is, assuming you survive the mild electrocution and handful of third degree burns inside your body.

[Epicedion]

Epic, I would love to see why you consider cyberware hacking a good thing. Or a necessary thing. Perhaps if the total effect of a cyberware hack was needing to spend a simple or complex to reboot, sure, that would have been acceptable (and pretty nifty), but the way it's presented makes the entire thing useless. I don't mind combat hacking at all. There's a scene in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex where the Major hacks Batou in order to make him punch himself that always struck me as something supremely cyberpunk, but as it is, a decker can seriously fuck a samurai's day up without a second thought.

I see cyberware hacking as something that PCs will be doing to NPCs more often than the other way around, for starters. Most standard security doesn't have 100% decker overwatch, so I don't fall into the apparently common trap of thinking that enemy deckers will always be waiting to pounce on the PCs' gear as soon as they put anything online.

In situations where an enemy decker does show up to attack the PCs' gear, it's going to heavily encourage decker vs decker Matrix fights in the middle of other encounters. An enemy decker can't feasibly crash all your gear while your team's decker is Black Hammering him in the face.

It provides a host of explicit options that don't rely on GM leniency regarding affecting the local environment. Instead of hacking the lights or turning on the fire suppression system just to cripple an enemy's vision, you can instead go after the gear or 'ware they use to see. It's much more clear-cut what you can and can't accomplish.

[BigGreenSquid]

And we're apparently back to SR4 being the One True Edition

I am not of the "burn it all" persuasion when it comes to SR5. In fact I think there are some really good things about SR5. Once pointed out to me, I could definitely see the benefit of raising skills from 6 to 12 and subsequently the need to impose limits. Other changes to fit the "rule of cool," do not improve the game. Those are the area's I would like to see addressed. As a consumer, I would like to ask the Dev's, just how did the 4th edition of D&D work out for Wizards of the Coast? I have purchased the SR5 pdf and at this point have no desire to purchase anything else of the 5th edition.

I would have actually been really supportive had they merged the SR 2050 project with SR5 as a restart. Who in the 80's or 90's could have imagined how much has changed with the internet and cell phones. With all the changes we've seen, the changes to the Internet underway now to accommodate the mobile market may be even bigger than what has come before.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/201...s-going-mobile/

As much as I loved the previous editions of SR, I thought SR4 was a major step in the right direction to keep SR from becoming dated SciFi.

even though in the context of the game as a whole it presents itself as an extreme deviation from the norm. Wonderful.

One problem that a futuristic settings face is the encroach of the present. When present technologies begin to outpace the "future" the suspension of disbelief becomes very difficult. I have loved the previous editions in their time, however by the time SR4 came along, if an extreme deviation (read realignment of technology with current trends) was not made the entire setting was dead.

Now, 5e is printed and this is the turd we have to work with. I think it can be recovered in the splatbooks without burning the core with the introduction of carefully crafted additions.

One idea towards that end:

So, the corporate court has made a decision, and for some stupid reason all of the mega's implemented it before consulting their InfoSec guys. Judges are not techies and make stupid decisions, like creating a single layer matrix. Tada, the boys at Cisco have developed the PAN router. It has a single matrix attribute because it is primarily a firewall. By using VPN tunneling, all devices subscribed to the Cisco router are hidden from the matrix, while still gaining the full benefit of wireless. However, as a result of tunneling, once the Router is cracked, a hacker has free access to all subscribed devices.

The guys at DD-WRT see the real potential of the Cisco router, and after rooting it, load it with a custom ROM that also has a sleaze rating to hide the router.

[Medicineman]

For most of here, we are well aware the wireless rules suck. As for the yesmen, nothing that is said will change them from towing the company line. As I have read through this post, it seems like the yesmen have made a concerted effort to draw the discussion away from the development of a good TacNet system or anything else that would replace the retartedness of the RAW.

So, wireless sux, how do we fix it?

By ignoring it !
give the Bonus (f.E.Smartlink +2 Dice & +2ACC) without any Wireless connection (make it work like it did in SR4A )
some Boni/Bonusses could be added with other explanations (F.E. recharging of Tasers happens via Gridlink, or extracting Strap-on-Blades is via Muscletension a free Action) or via DNI ( like it was in SR4A)

Except that my experience is hardly unique. Know of plenty of tables that had absolutely no issues with Hacking (Have many Friends across the country that play the game), and there are people here on this forum that also have reported the same things.

I can confirm Tyleaus
not only across the US
also here in Germany there's lots of Groups (including my own 3 ones)that have/had no Problem with Hackers in Combat doin' useful things
And we know that JH's claim that Hackers were useless in SR4A is.....Wrong

There is absolutely no bonus listed that is in any way incentivized.

I have to disagree with Tymeaus here
for a Combat Char the Wireless-throwing-knife-Bonus is great !
But if You follow Logic You have to give the same Bonus to Wireless Bullets too ,which is a huge invitation for Powergamer (and since CGL said that everything (including Bullets) is WiFi......(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) )

He who Dances without invitation
Medicineman

[RHat]

I can confirm Tyleaus
not only across the US
also here in Germany there's lots of Groups (including my own 3 ones)that have/had no Problem with Hackers in Combat doin' useful things
And we know that JH's claim that Hackers were useless in SR4A is.....Wrong

And were those hacking things that contributed to combat specifically? If so, what? The basic test here is that the uses need to be general case - not specific to particular environments or enemies. Gear/ware hacking means that the times where there's no hacking actions to take are extraordinarily rare - same as for everyone else.

[Shadow Knight]

That's a complete misdirect, and at this point either you know that or you're just not listening. A mage CAN pick up a gun and shoot, and that can certainly be good enough. So can a rigger. So can the face. But guess what? They've all got combat options inside their specialty. You still haven't provided any reason why the hacker should be the only one who doesn't get options within his specialty for combat. My contention is that there are no design reasons for this, and thus far you have not even attempted to respond to that.

do street samurai get special options to use while the Decker is hacking? and I already mentioned several social n things a Decker can do during combat. Decker were already special snowflakes with plenty to do during combat. they do not need to always have the spotlight.

[Epicedion]

do street samurai get special options to use while the Decker is hacking? and I already mentioned several social n things a Decker can do during combat. Decker were already special snowflakes with plenty to do during combat. they do not need to always have the spotlight.

The Street Samurai gets to spend copious resources and skill points on being faster, stronger, and better at shooting and stabbing people. He's still the front-line combatant, and the decker gets a set of support options. There's a big difference between having the spotlight and being allowed on the stage.

[RHat]

do street samurai get special options to use while the Decker is hacking? and I already mentioned several social n things a Decker can do during combat. Decker were already special snowflakes with plenty to do during combat. they do not need to always have the spotlight.

For fuck's sake, how many times do I have to say it before you can be bothered to directly respond? Combat is not like other parts of the game - for a very large array of reasons, combat is a special case. You'll notice that the design of the game reflects this by allowing every specialization to contribute to combat. That does not, however, constitute stealing the spotlight - that would require you to match or outweigh the Sam's contribution.

[Medicineman]

And were those hacking things that contributed to combat specifically? If so, what?

Protecting Your own Tac-Net (Boosting all kinds of pools)
Attacking Enemies Tac-Net (lowering their bonus)
Attacking /taking Over Drones ( Drones meant LOTS of Firepower and Surveillance !!)
Scrambling Enemies Communication (No Reeinforcements, no coordinated Attacks)
(in one of my Rounds I played a Hobbit Hacker/Reporter. His Job in Combat was to secure the Tacnet and Survillance with Drones Plus Sniper Drone Plus psychol. Warfare (He had 2 Facehugger drones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) which he used to scare the Conguards) )

He who Dances on LV426
Medicineman

[RHat]

Protecting Your own Tac-Net (Boosting all kinds of pools)
Attacking Enemies Tac-Net (lowering their bonus)
Attacking /taking Over Drones ( Drones meant LOTS of Firepower and Surveillance !!)
Scrambling Enemies Communication (No Reeinforcements, no coordinated Attacks)
(in one of my Rounds I played a Hobbit Hacker/Reporter. His Job in Combat was to secure the Tacnet and Survillance with Drones Plus Sniper Drone Plus psychol. Warfare (He had 2 Facehugger drones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) which he used to scare the Conguards) )

He who Dances on LV426
Medicineman

None of those qualify general case, and some of them don't even qualify as hacking (see: everything involving drones - that's rigging).

[Medicineman]

None of those qualify general case, and some of them don't even qualify as hacking (see: everything involving drones - that's rigging).

thats ....Cottage Cheese !

Working with/using Drones can be done by anyone ,not only the Rigger
Using/protecting the Teams Communication and/or Tacnet qualifies totally for general case
In battle I had so much to do, that one Fellow Player (who played "Siren" our female Elven Face (I know its a Clichée but he was always fun)) opted to take over the Sniper and the Surveillance Drones so that I (as a player) could cocnentrate on the Tacnet & Communication and ....wreaking Havoc with my 2 Sweethearts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).
Both of our chars stayed back in our Turtle Van(armored-up Team Van) while the other 3 or 4 Runner ...."went in"

with lots of Dances
Medicineman

[Epicedion]

Protecting Your own Tac-Net (Boosting all kinds of pools)
Attacking Enemies Tac-Net (lowering their bonus)
Attacking /taking Over Drones ( Drones meant LOTS of Firepower and Surveillance !!)
Scrambling Enemies Communication (No Reeinforcements, no coordinated Attacks)
(in one of my Rounds I played a Hobbit Hacker/Reporter. His Job in Combat was to secure the Tacnet and Survillance with Drones Plus Sniper Drone Plus psychol. Warfare (He had 2 Facehugger drones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) which he used to scare the Conguards) )

He who Dances on LV426
Medicineman

1) Tac-Nets aren't a thing right now, and we haven't seen how those are going to work with the hacking rules.

2) Tac-Nets still aren't a thing right now, and we still haven't seen how those are going to work with the hacking rules.

3) That's implying that hackers should be stealing the spotlight from riggers. Insert pissing and moaning about how street samurai riggers are useless because hackers can walk all over their cyberware drones.

4) Hacking communications is great, but actually really hard to do effectively in combat. Shutting down one commlink in a squad still leaves a number of other commlinks in the squad. Unless you get all of them at once, you're probably just being annoying.

[Medicineman]

@ 1) & 2)
They WERE a Thing in SR4A (and this is also what this Thread is abaout and is an answer to Rhats question)

@3)
Riggers were allways best at gonig INTO the Drones.
Black Jack(the Hobbit) only used them via Remote Control
Its not stealing the Spotlight. Chars can always Team Up (like Siren did) if part of the Job is to big

@4)
I was more occupied(IIRC ,its been 5-6 Years ago since I played Black Jack the last time) with our Tacnet and Supressing Panicbutton Alerts and using Miscommunications/Misdirections

HougH!
Medicineman

[RHat]

thats ....Cottage Cheese !

Working with/using Drones can be done by anyone ,not only the Rigger
Using/protecting the Teams Communication and/or Tacnet qualifies totally for general case
In battle I had so much to do, that one Fellow Player (who played "Siren" our female Elven Face (I know its a Clichée but he was always fun)) opted to take over the Sniper and the Surveillance Drones so that I (as a player) could cocnentrate on the Tacnet & Communication and ....wreaking Havoc with my 2 Sweethearts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).
Both of our chars stayed back in our Turtle Van(armored-up Team Van) while the other 3 or 4 Runner ...."went in"

with lots of Dances
Medicineman

First, drones are rigging - you can cross over into other roles, sure, but that fails this particular test.

Second, it has not been my experience that tacnets are at all as common as you seem to thing - not at all common enough to be general case, at least. And if the GM has to throw an opposed hacker into every fight to give you something to do, it DEFINITELY doesn't qualify.

[Sendaz]

I would argue that usurping drones and other rigged devices IS the Decker's job. Whether it's hacking into a mainframe or that drone trying to give your street sammie a high velocity enema, the Decker is well suited to the task.

The rigger's job is to be running/organizing his own transports & drones, which can keep him plenty busy. Yes he has a moderate amount of defense for his devices and can try to take over some opposition devices, but again most of his focus is on you know shooting people with his own drones or getting people in and out via vehicles.

Decking/Rigging are two sides of the same electronic warfare coin and despite many people trying to claim them as two totally separate things, there is too much overlap to support that idea, especially when so much of the devices are operating via wireless connections. So unless your rigger is running many many yards of wire to each and every drone/device, he will have to contend with deckers/riggers messing with those.

That said, cyberware can and should be hackable if online. It's a device like any other and if open to the web, well you run the risk. But as has been pointed out, many will choose to just turn it off rather than run the risks, because it seems pretty one sided as it is written right now. And that is perfectly sensible thing to do in some situations.

If you as a player could turn magic to off, ie turn wiz-fi off and make it so an enemy wizard could not mind control you or burn you with the simple flipping of a switch, how many players here wouldn't jump at that switch right before a fight against a guy chanting and waving his arms around? Unless it's MedicineMan, as that is just how he says Hi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's trying to find that balance point between being able to operate and being totally vulnerable that is the tricky bit. Yes the game is a team effort so we should rely up to a point on our decker to cover us, but at the same time many players do not want everything to ride on someone outside themselves, especially in regards to their own body (installed cyberware), hence the feeling of vulnerability which has triggered a lot of this debate.

Slaving devices is a good step to improving personal defense, and maybe Commlinks should have the ability to run a basic form of an agent or something for a more proactive defense. Rather than removing wireless we need to look at options to work with this to keep the flavour that was intended, if not well defined by the RAW.

[RHat]

I would argue that usurping drones and other rigged devices IS the Decker's job.

Subverting an enemy rigger's drones is a decker's job (which works ONLY when the other side has drones, which causes it to fail the test). Operating your own drones is a rigger's job.

[Sendaz]

Subverting an enemy rigger's drones is a decker's job (which works ONLY when the other side has drones, which causes it to fail the test). Operating your own drones is a rigger's job.

And that is what I said if you had looked at the whole piece.

I would argue that usurping drones and other rigged devices IS the Decker's job. Whether it's hacking into a mainframe or that drone trying to give your street sammie a high velocity enema, the Decker is well suited to the task.

The rigger's job is to be running/organizing his own transports & drones, which can keep him plenty busy. Yes he has a moderate amount of defense for his devices and can try to take over some opposition devices, but again most of his focus is on you know shooting people with his own drones or getting people in and out via vehicles.

You would not go usurping your own team's drone, unless you are a dick, so by default the usurping was meant against enemy devices.

As for passing or failing this supposed test, I think you are beating it a bit to death.

Plus you will note again if you read it all I do agree that cyber can and should be hackable.

But wait, if the target does not have any cyber does that mean this also fails your test?

I am not trying to pick a fight as I do respect your opinion RHat, but the circular arguing going on both sides is not going to find us an answer.

Am just pointing out that we need to expand on what we have to maybe find something that can be more agreeable to both parties.

It's a bit like Mind Control, it's awesome until it's used on you and there is damn little defense against it so most tables have a house rule of so long as players don't use it much, neither do the GM's but that is just a gentlemen's agreement to avoid the issue itself rather than providing a better answer.

If you beef up the defense on devices too much it will slow the Decking to a crawl, but if we do not find something to offer a bit more defense for the other players, they are just going to go offline.

Just not sure what would work well.

[Medicineman]

First, drones are rigging

Remote Control :!:

Second, it has not been my experience that tacnets are at all as common as you seem to thing

Maybe not Yours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And if the GM has to throw an opposed hacker into every fight to give you something to do, it DEFINITELY doesn't qualify.

I can't really follow Your thought (I don't see where You're comong from).
Do You (as a GM) always throw in a Mage into every fight to give the Players Mage something to do?
Do You always throw in a full fledged Cyber-Warrior for the Teams Streetsam ?
What about an Adept for the Teams Ninja....?

with a qualified Dance
Medicineman

[RHat]

Remote Control :!:



Maybe not Yours (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I can't really follow Your thought (I don't see where You're comong from).
Do You (as a GM) always throw in a Mage into every fight to give the Players Mage something to do?
Do You always throw in a full fledged Cyber-Warrior for the Teams Streetsam ?
What about an Adept for the Teams Ninja....?

with a qualified Dance
Medicineman

1: Remote Control is still a form of rigging.

2: Not mine, nor many reports I've heard - nor, in fact, SR4 or 5 core. If you need a specific element from an expansion, it does not satisfy the test.

3: You don't need an opposing mage for the mage to be casting spells and conjuring spirits. A street-sam can fight without top-flight opponent. And so on. The same, however, does not apply to a decker securing a tacnet - there is nothing that needs doing there if there is not an attempt being made to subvert it, which means an enemy hacker.

[Epicedion]

Here are some Tac-Net rules that would solve many of your individual problems:

A Tac-Net is a computer network that consists of a Master unit and a number of Slave units.

The Tac-Net Master establishes a miniature Host. If a Slave unit is within 100m of Master, it enters the Tac-Net. Outside that range, the Slave is on its own.

The Tac-Net Host has no Attack rating. It has Data Processing, Firewall, and Sleaze ratings. These are configurable, with an Attribute Array equal to the Master's Device Rating, Device Rating +1, and Device Rating +2. The Tac-Net Master can handle a number of Slave units equal to its current Data Processing. The Tac-Net Master can run a number of Tac-Net Programs equal to half its Device Rating (round up).

A Tac-Net Slave unit can establish a link with a number of devices in its owner's PAN equal to it's Device Rating x2, as if creating its own Master-Slave relationship. These devices merge with the Tac-Net Host icon and can only be accessed via direct connection or from within the Tac-Net Host itself. The Tac-Net Host handles all Matrix traffic for its connected devices, so as long as the Master is able to connect to the Matrix (wirelessly), all connected devices are considered connected to the Matrix for the purposes of wireless bonuses.

A persona may enter the Host, but is never considered to be a part of the Tac-Net. Drones may not normally enter the Tac-Net.

Some Tac-Net Programs:

Adaptive Defense -- This program automatically reconfigures the Tac-Net in order to maximize its defenses. Generally speaking, if a Tac-Net realizes it has been infiltrated (or if it's told by its owner) it will reconfigure its attributes to maximize Firewall and then Sleaze. In its basic mode, the Tac-Net will not reduce its Data Processing if that action would drop members from the Tac-Net, though it can be configured to allow this. The Adaptive Defense program may also swap out the Tac-Net's active programs with another set, as configured by the owner.

Audio/Visual Processing -- This program allows the Tac-Net to provide audio or visual data from a connected sensor to any member of the Tac-Net, so long as they have a receiver that can provide that sensory input (glasses/cybereyes/etc for visual, headphones/cyberears/etc for audio). Such a member can use the best relevant bonus (or least penalty) available to any of these sensors.

Drone-Net -- This program allows one drone to become a member of the Tac-Net as if it were a Tac-Net Slave, thereby becoming part of the Host. This program can be run multiple times to allow multiple drones.

Enhanced Targeting -- This program allows one member of the Tac-Net to use another member's Take Aim dice pool bonus, so long as both are using connected smartguns.

Purge -- Once at the end of each Combat Turn, this program emits a barrage of Matrix damage to any and all personas inside the host (including authorized personas), with a DV equal to the Tac-Net Master's Device Rating. There is no defense test to avoid this, but it can be resisted normally.

Scrubber -- This program is essentially an Agent, with a rating equal to the Device Rating of the Tac-Net Master. It patrols the interior of the Host, removing marks, attempting to spot intruders, and running Trace Icon actions on any unauthorized visitors, the results of which it will display for the TacNet members. It cannot take any actions against targets that are not inside the Host. Since the Host has no Attack rating, it cannot perform any Attack actions (though it may Hack on the Fly to gain marks for the Trace Icon action).

Stealth Plus -- This program uses a predictive and adaptive algorithm to plot optimal routes for sneaking past guards, drones, and sensors, providing a +2 dice pool bonus to Stealth tests. This requires at least one visual sensor available to scan the area to be traversed.

Tactical Awareness -- This program provides a static +2 dice pool bonus to (physical) defense tests, and allows an unaware member of the Tac-Net a defense test so long as at least one other member of the Tac-Net is aware of the attack.

[Medicineman]

there is nothing that needs doing there if there is not an attempt being made to subvert it, which means an enemy hacker.

ther's always something to do for a Hacker (If he knows the Rules & the World, If he's not a complete Newbee)
even without a Hacker Attack, just as there is always something to do for other Chars....*Shrug*

1: Remote Control is still a form of rigging.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)
Ok now I know that further discussion is moot
because I consider ordering your Car or a Drone via remote control NOT as something that only a Rigger can/should do

@Epicedion
this looks fine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With a final Dance
Medicineman