Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[RHat]

ther's always something to do for a Hacker (If he knows the Rules & the World, If he's not a complete Newbee)
even without a Hacker Attack, just as there is always something to do for other Chars....*Shrug*

Always, you say? What is "always" there?

Ok now I know that further discussion is moot
because I consider ordering your Car or a Drone via remote control NOT as something that only a Rigger can/should do

And grabbing a gun isn't something only the Sam should do - but neither are in-specialty for the hacker, who has just as much right as everyone else to in-specialty combat actions.

[Medicineman]

ther's always something to do for a Hacker

is the Translationfor:
Es gibt immer was für den Hacker zu tun

Which Means the Hacker is (usually ) quite Busy doing something

but neither are in-specialty for the hacker, who has just as much right as everyone else to in-specialty combat actions.

A Hacker (If he knows what to do) has soooooo many chances for Spotlight Action in a Combat Szenario
Yes he's got the Same rights for Spotlight and much more opportunities in a Fight as a Face, Driver,Safeknacker, Info-Gatherer so (ImO) ther is no (was never) a Need for Special (crumpy ) Rules to add even more spotlight chances for a Hacker.

So, I gotta Go to Concert
(Rock im Pott with Tenacious D,Volbeat and SOAD)
With a Dance to Gelsenkirchen
Medicineman

[RHat]

Which Means the Hacker is (usually ) quite Busy doing something

.
And I'm asking what things under the purview of hacking are consistently available.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Street Samurai gets to spend copious resources and skill points on being faster, stronger, and better at shooting and stabbing people. He's still the front-line combatant, and the decker gets a set of support options. There's a big difference between having the spotlight and being allowed on the stage.

Which does him absolutely no good in a Social Situation... A Situation where a Hacker still has uses. Wow, Imagine that, A Street Sam with nothing to do. Hmmmmm.....

[Dolanar]

The team has just escaped from the facility, macguffin in tow, the escape was a lil messy, the ninja adept raised the alarm & the team decided it was better to get miles away before the KE Pigs arrived on the scene. As the team runs down an alley to meet up with the Johnson, a shot rings out, the Sam narrowly dodges a shot. The team notes the sound of more movement in the adjoining Alleys. There's no way out of this without a fight. The Sam picks up his biggest gun, getting ready to fight it out, but stepping out into the alley with an unknown number of enemies could be suicide. The Adept ninja is already climbing a gutter to get a better look at the scene from above, a small handgun ready to shoot.

This is a typical "Low Decker Environment" for a Decker to be in, feel free to take from both sides what either group thinks is available to the decker in this situation. If you feel this is not worth your time, then perhaps we should end the discussion as neither side will be able to fully understand each group's perspective without such a thought experiment.

This is a typical street with several alleys on either side of buildings, lets assume since they are only about a mile or so out of range of a facility, decent city upkeep in the area. if anyone wishes to participate in this thought experiment to better understand this, feel free to ask questions & I will fill in additional details as needed.

[quentra]

It takes all of two seconds for me to come up with 'Hacker hacks local CCTV cams to provide situational awareness.' Or he runs scan to find nodes in the adjacent alleys. Or he hacks a car (Gridguide, natch) and tells it to roll into an alley at max speed. Or he scans for enemy communications. Or he uses a knowledge skill to figure out who the local gangers are and fakes a message saying that a war has started to provide a distraction. I can go on, if needed.

[KCKitsune]

For fuck's sake, how many times do I have to say it before you can be bothered to directly respond? Combat is not like other parts of the game - for a very large array of reasons, combat is a special case. You'll notice that the design of the game reflects this by allowing every specialization to contribute to combat. That does not, however, constitute stealing the spotlight - that would require you to match or outweigh the Sam's contribution.

OK RHat, what's the Face doing DURING Combat?

[KCKitsune]

The team has just escaped from the facility, macguffin in tow, the escape was a lil messy, the ninja adept raised the alarm & the team decided it was better to get miles away before the KE Pigs arrived on the scene. As the team runs down an alley to meet up with the Johnson, a shot rings out, the Sam narrowly dodges a shot. The team notes the sound of more movement in the adjoining Alleys. There's no way out of this without a fight. The Sam picks up his biggest gun, getting ready to fight it out, but stepping out into the alley with an unknown number of enemies could be suicide. The Adept ninja is already climbing a gutter to get a better look at the scene from above, a small handgun ready to shoot.

This is a typical "Low Decker Environment" for a Decker to be in, feel free to take from both sides what either group thinks is available to the decker in this situation. If you feel this is not worth your time, then perhaps we should end the discussion as neither side will be able to fully understand each group's perspective without such a thought experiment.

The Decker hacks the local cameras and feeds the data to the team, while getting his MGL-6 grenade launcher pistol with Airburst link ready to drop some narcojet mini grenades on the enemy.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

OK RHat, what's the Face doing DURING Combat?

He really cannot answer without undermining his position. Sucks to backed into a corner, but there you go. Sad, Really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Decker hacks the local cameras and feeds the data to the team, while getting his MGL-6 grenade launcher pistol with Airburst link ready to drop some narcojet mini grenades on the enemy.

Exactly what I would be doing, though not with a Grenade Launcher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KCKitsune]

Exactly what I would be doing, though not with a Grenade Launcher. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Life is much easier with a grenade launcher! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[apple]

OK RHat, what's the Face doing DURING Combat?

Not to mention the occult investigator, the infiltrator, the mechanic, the smuggler, the bounty hunter / tracker ... their primary expertise, skills, equipment cannot contribute to combat or contribute only in a very small direct way (like having a minor combat skill and a weapon or able to use minor magic or calm down team members after a fear attack for example). All their strengths are outside of combat or in setting up combat in a specific way to control or ease the way of combat.

However short time "combat hacking" is indeed used sometimes in modern cyberpunk (GITS was a given by that charming author of the wifi bonuses (you know where he admitted that he thinks the wifi bonuses are garbage (and not knowing the basic matrix rules ...)). However as it was often said before: this could have been done with beefed up manipulation of micro/mini drones (short term control), radio communication (voice manipulation for wrong orders), tacnets (reducing bonuses and inflicting disadvantages like rerouting or shooting each other) and devices who are usually online (like your commlink).

SYL

[Dolanar]

I chose to post that example to use as a thought experiment, I thought it best illustrated combat in a location that wasn't...Pro Decker to show what sort of options were available based on the players on the board. Decker's really are only limited by their imagination & the GM when it comes to what they can do, even if they don't directly contribute to the reduction of opposition's health monitor's with their skills all the time.

[RHat]

OK RHat, what's the Face doing DURING Combat?

Please read the rules for using Leadership.

Not to mention the occult investigator, the infiltrator, the mechanic, the smuggler, the bounty hunter / tracker ...

Design-wise, that's a variant mage, variant Sam (who uses his stealth to achieve surprise), variant rigger, variant rigger/Sam, and variant Sam. Put another way, casting spells or summoning spirits is inside the specialty of the occult investigator (notice the SR5 archetype has Flamethrower and Armor). Catching someone unawares to take them out of the fight is inside the specialty of the infiltrator. A mechanic, if he's going to be able to be on a runner team as a "mechanic", is gonna have the vehicle skills to be able to rig, placing that within his specialty. The same applies with the smuggler, and if they're the Han Solo type then combat skills are actually central to the theme ANYWAYS, which makes shooting the enemy in specialty (notice the Muscle Toner on the SR5 archetype). And if you think for a second that subduing a target isn't in the domain of a bounty hunter, then I would politely inquire as to what you are smoking and where I can get some.

Which does him absolutely no good in a Social Situation... A Situation where a Hacker still has uses. Wow, Imagine that, A Street Sam with nothing to do. Hmmmmm.....

So, how much damage do you have to soak after failing a Negotiation roll at your table, anyways?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Design-wise, that's a variant mage, variant Sam (who uses his stealth to achieve surprise), variant rigger, variant rigger/Sam, and variant Sam. Put another way, casting spells or summoning spirits is inside the specialty of the occult investigator (notice the SR5 archetype has Flamethrower and Armor). Catching someone unawares to take them out of the fight is inside the specialty of the infiltrator. A mechanic, if he's going to be able to be on a runner team as a "mechanic", is gonna have the vehicle skills to be able to rig, placing that within his specialty. The same applies with the smuggler, and if they're the Han Solo type then combat skills are actually central to the theme ANYWAYS, which makes shooting the enemy in specialty (notice the Muscle Toner on the SR5 archetype). And if you think for a second that subduing a target isn't in the domain of a bounty hunter, then I would politely inquire as to what you are smoking and where I can get some.

Except that you are making assumptions about what the Character archetypes mean here. An Occult Investigator need not cast spells at all. And your assumptions that an infiltrator is just a variant Street Sam is just laughable. Same with your Smuggler assumptions and whatnot. No, not every archetype is a variant combat gumby. It is sad that you think they are.

So, how much damage do you have to soak after failing a Negotiation roll at your table, anyways?

That really depends upon what the consequences of the failure to negotiate are. Sometimes we just do not get what we want... sometimes, well, someone gets shot. It happens. I don't complain or cry about it. But then, the vast majority of my characters can at least make the roll. From what I hear on this forum, that is apparently pretty unique, so... *shrug*

[RHat]

Except that you are making assumptions about what the Character archetypes mean here. An Occult Investigator need not cast spells at all. And your assumptions that an infiltrator is just a variant Street Sam is just laughable. Same with your Smuggler assumptions and whatnot. No, not every archetype is a variant combat gumby. It is sad that you think they are.

Oh, there's a few forms of the infiltrator, certainly, but we're talking about a high Agility, high Intuition character - their primary combat option is to achieve surprise and do something, which in almost all cases will be some form of direct attempt to subdue the enemy (and I've yet to see an infiltrator build that doesn't have a reasonable chance of success at doing so against a surprised enemy). And the Occult Investigator does have options other than spells - but as a character type defined in part by Magic, what's in-specialty for them are the magical options (conjuring, sorcery, and enchanting).

That really depends upon what the consequences of the failure to negotiate are. Sometimes we just do not get what we want... sometimes, well, someone gets shot. It happens. I don't complain or cry about it. But then, the vast majority of my characters can at least make the roll. From what I hear on this forum, that is apparently pretty unique, so... *shrug*

Someone gets shot, or does combat start? There's very serious difference.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, there's a few forms of the infiltrator, certainly, but we're talking about a high Agility, high Intuition character - their primary combat option is to achieve surprise and do something, which in almost all cases will be some form of direct attempt to subdue the enemy (and I've yet to see an infiltrator build that doesn't have a reasonable chance of success at doing so against a surprised enemy). And the Occult Investigator does have options other than spells - but as a character type defined in part by Magic, what's in-specialty for them are the magical options (conjuring, sorcery, and enchanting).

Again your assumptions are getting in the way. If I am making an Infiltrator, I will concentrate on my Infiltration abilities, not my combat abilities. Yes, he will have SOME capability, but I would say the same for a Hacker as well. Apparently, in your view though, a Hacker should never have to pick up a gun. Why would that be? If you are going to assume that all other archetypes are combat capable, why would you exclude the Hacker from being combat capable as well?

Someone gets shot, or does combat start? There's very serious difference.

Yes, Sometimes, and Sometimes yes. Not really a difference to me.

You are trying to argue yourself out of a hole that you created. If your argument is that all other archetypes be combat capable, then your Hacker should be as well, for, you know, those times his hacking must take a back burner to actual combat. Just like your argument for all the other archetypes.

[apple]

Please read the rules for using Leadership.

We have ... both in SR4 and 5. They do not contribute to combat in the same way Sam with an assault rifle. You cannot kill someone with leadership. You can influence someone under fear, guide him, gather your team, direct it. Just to be sure that you know that leadership does in SR5

Command: The target resists with a Leadership + Willpower [Mental] test (with Social Modifiers, p. 140). For every net hit you get, the target accepts you as their leader for 1 Combat Turn. This doesn’t work if you’ve failed on this target before.
Direct: Your hits act as a Teamwork Test for one subordinate’s skill or Composure Test that they perform on or before their next Action Phase.
Inspire: Your hits act as a Teamwork Test for your subordinates’
Surprise Test for the rest of the Combat Turn.
Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative
Score for every 2 hits you get.

Again: that was the hackers job in SR4, for example manipulating the radio communication or spoofing the tacnet. Now, the decker was deliberately enabled to *damage* the enemy. Not to influence him, to guide his team, to debuff or buff - to damage him (by setting his spine on fire for example (you have read the fluff description of bricking, right?).

Catching someone unawares to take them out of the fight is inside the specialty of the infiltrator.

And how does he take the people out? With the "sneaking around" skill? Or with combat skills?

A mechanic, if he's going to be able to be on a runner team as a "mechanic", is gonna have the vehicle skills to be able to rig, placing that within his specialty.

Mechanic, not rigger. I am not talking about a drone rigger or combat rigger. I am talking about an assault with the hardware or mechanic skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

then combat skills are actually central to the theme ANYWAYS,

No, hiding, knowing, sneaking, disappearing, faking, forging - not Han Solo. Han Solo was a samurai with rigger as second.

So, as you see: no one of the other archetypes can really contribute to combat like a Sam can with an assault rifle - as in killing human being almost instantly. The drone rigger can do that, the combat decker, the various sams, tanks, combat adepts and combat hermetics with spells or spirits. But the rest are "out of combat" archetypes with minor applications inside of combat (which mostly depends on the rating of their agility attribute and combat skill). Why is is perfectly acceptable for these archetypes not being able to contribute to combat in the same manor as a street sam, with their primary skillset, (like sneaking or con) why was it not acceptable for the hacker just to follow the same advise you have just given the infiltrator "take out a guy before combat starts" or the face by buffing or debuffing the enemy communication? Your own argument regarding the infiltrator is exactly the same argument which could be used against the SR5 "decker must be able to brick your spine" argument.

Whey can "hacking" kill someone and why is that ok, but its not ok for the face to spook someone to death with con? Or to sneak someone to death? Or to repair someone to death? Because it sounds ridiculous?

Perhaps now you can imagine how ridiculous the defense of Jason Hardy and "deckers must brick everything" sounds to rest of the sane people.

And btw, just if it was lost, even in SR4 a hacker could contribute to combat with his primary skills. This makes Jason Hardy and his blog either incompetent as in not knowing his own game (something which is unfortunately shared by some of the authors) or a liar.

SYL

[RHat]

Again your assumptions are getting in the way. If I am making an Infiltrator, I will concentrate on my Infiltration abilities, not my combat abilities. Yes, he will have SOME capability, but I would say the same for a Hacker as well. Apparently, in your view though, a Hacker should never have to pick up a gun. Why would that be? If you are going to assume that all other archetypes are combat capable, why would you exclude the Hacker from being combat capable as well?



Yes, Sometimes, and Sometimes yes. Not really a difference to me.

You are trying to argue yourself out of a hole that you created. If your argument is that all other archetypes be combat capable, then your Hacker should be as well, for, you know, those times his hacking must take a back burner to actual combat. Just like your argument for all the other archetypes.

As to the infiltrator, you've already got the attributes - but combat actions are just the example. The point is that the infiltrator can drop out of sight and do whatever it is that he wants to do without opposition, which is a huge advantage. Keep in mind that a hacker with an Agility of 2 or even 1 (which are fairly probable builds - there are going to be a lot of people who build their decker by taking low attributes and keeping their physicals very low as a result) has one hell of an uphill battle doing shit all with a firearm. All that said, my argument ISN'T that a hacker shouldn't ever have to pick up a gun - simply that it isn't in specialty, and every single character type has combat actions that are in-specialty for them, and the question I have posed, which nobody has to date bothered to answer, is for what design reason do you think that the hacker should be the only exception to this?

[apple]

The point is that the infiltrator can drop out of sight and do whatever it is that he wants to do without opposition, which is a huge advantage.

Actually thats not the point.

The point of the entire discussion is why is ok for the hacker to contribute directly to kill your opponents with this primary skill (decking) and not using a combat skill, when every other archetype except mage, drone rigger (indirectly) and sam, have to take a backseat, are reduced to buff/debuff or cheerleader dancing with their primary skills (like con, hardware, sneak etc) ... or have to use a combat skill?

SYL

[RHat]

We have ... both in SR4 and 5. They do not contribute to combat in the same way Sam with an assault rifle. You cannot kill someone with leadership. You can influence someone under fear, guide him, gather your team, direct it. Just to be sure that you know that leadership does in SR5

No, not the same way - but contributing the same way is not part of the test. The combat specialist's contribution is and should be largely unique.

Again: that was the hackers job in SR4, for example manipulating the radio communication or spoofing the tacnet. Now, the decker was deliberately enabled to *damage* the enemy. Not to influence him, to guide his team, to debuff or buff - to damage him (by setting his spine on fire for example (you have read the fluff description of bricking, right?).

First, those methods fail the test being applied here, as they operate only in specific circumstances (where your enemies are relying on radio communications or a tac-net - against a certain subset of opponents, this can be assumed, but that is too specific to satisfy the condition).

And no, the decker doesn't damage the *enemy*. He damages or subverts the enemy's *gear*, denying or impairing the use of it - certainly sounds like a debuff to me, which you just implied is acceptable to you if we're setting the specific implementation aside.

And how does he take the people out? With the "sneaking around" skill? Or with combat skills?

There are many options - the most basic and general of which is to act as a scout to provide information on the enemy's position and movements, opening up tactical options and making it easier to target them with indirect fire. A plethora of other options open up depending on your other skills and the enemies you're facing which tie directly to your stealth abilities, which given the low cost of entry (while it is relatively difficult to build a character who's just an infiltrator, but comparitively easy to do so with a sam, decker, rigger, or mage) is certainly sufficient.

Mechanic, not rigger. I am not talking about a drone rigger or combat rigger. I am talking about an assault with the hardware or mechanic skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Tell me how that character fits onto a run in the first place, and we'll talk.

No, hiding, knowing, sneaking, disappearing, faking, forging - not Han Solo. Han Solo was a samurai with rigger as second.

Maybe so - but the smuggler as seen in the SR5 archetypes is a combination sam/rigger, and thus both direct combat and rigging are in-specialty.

So, as you see: no one of the other archetypes can really contribute to combat like a Sam can with an assault rifle - as in killing human being almost instantly. The drone rigger can do that, the combat decker, the various sams, tanks, combat adepts and combat hermetics with spells or spirits. But the rest are "out of combat" archetypes with minor applications inside of combat (which mostly depends on the rating of their agility attribute and combat skill). Why is is perfectly acceptable for these archetypes not being able to contribute to combat in the same manor as a street sam, with their primary skillset, (like sneaking or con) why was it not acceptable for the hacker just to follow the same advise you have just given the infiltrator "take out a guy before combat starts" or the face by buffing or debuffing the enemy communication? Your own argument regarding the infiltrator is exactly the same argument which could be used against the SR5 "decker must be able to brick your spine" argument.

Whey can "hacking" kill someone and why is that ok, but its not ok for the face to spook someone to death with con? Or to sneak someone to death? Or to repair someone to death? Because it sounds ridiculous?

Perhaps now you can imagine how ridiculous the defense of Jason Hardy and "deckers must brick everything" sounds to rest of the sane people.

And btw, just if it was lost, even in SR4 a hacker could contribute to combat with his primary skills. This makes Jason Hardy and his blog either incompetent as in not knowing his own game (something which is unfortunately shared by some of the authors) or a liar.

SYL

You will find you've been misreading my argument - and frankly, I feel I've been perfectly clear.

[quentra]

Bricking someone's gun could be considered a 'debuff' - setting their spine on 'SPLODEY' is definitely an attack.

[SpellBinder]

I'd love to see a Face Negotiate with an enemy's grenade to make it explode in said enemy's hand. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[BigGreenSquid]

Here are some Tac-Net rules that would solve many of your individual problems:

A Tac-Net is a computer network that consists of a Master unit and a number of Slave units.

The Tac-Net Master establishes a miniature Host. If a Slave unit is within 100m of Master, it enters the Tac-Net. Outside that range, the Slave is on its own.

The Tac-Net Host has no Attack rating. It has Data Processing, Firewall, and Sleaze ratings. These are configurable, with an Attribute Array equal to the Master's Device Rating, Device Rating +1, and Device Rating +2. The Tac-Net Master can handle a number of Slave units equal to its current Data Processing. The Tac-Net Master can run a number of Tac-Net Programs equal to half its Device Rating (round up).

A Tac-Net Slave unit can establish a link with a number of devices in its owner's PAN equal to it's Device Rating x2, as if creating its own Master-Slave relationship. These devices merge with the Tac-Net Host icon and can only be accessed via direct connection or from within the Tac-Net Host itself. The Tac-Net Host handles all Matrix traffic for its connected devices, so as long as the Master is able to connect to the Matrix (wirelessly), all connected devices are considered connected to the Matrix for the purposes of wireless bonuses.

A persona may enter the Host, but is never considered to be a part of the Tac-Net. Drones may not normally enter the Tac-Net.

Some Tac-Net Programs:

I really like the direction you have taken this. I have been so underwhelmed by the 5e matrix/wireless rules I didn't even think to expand on what was already put in place. The idea of a TacNet with its own set of programs is great.

* Another program that might work well with a TacNet would be an Orientation System when loaded with the applicable mapsofts.
* A TacNet with access to a MathSPU could provide indirect fire capabilities and bonuses to weapons not normally able to indirect fire.

* Any of the sensor software from 4A would work as well.
* A skillsoft/tutorsoft might be able to give a teamwork bonus in the form of AR overlays with instructions on the task at hand (might be a bit of a stretch on this one).

[BigGreenSquid]

RHat, I'm just curious, are you on Catalyst's payroll?