Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[Dolanar]

sounds amusing, I could see a run behind that if it was actually malicious code, trying to find the culprit.

[Irion]

Irion, that is part of the reason that the TacNet has not come to fruition, many people agree that adding an endless DP bonus just creates the engrossed DP's people saw in 4a. However, there has yet to be anything mentioned that didn;t in some way enlarge Dice Pools, even the Group Pool mentioned essentially still raises the DP's. However, without raising the DP or increasing the Limits or something along these lines, it essentially comes down to pure Fluff. If it comes down to Pure Fluff benefits, then there is little to no need for rules for it, or you have the issues such as the Exploding Cyber Eyes that do no damage.

That was not the point. The problem is technological progression while having the same "limits".
You can't go with the assumption, that a changed system is in line with the system it used to be. It is impossible. So you can never know what one die actually means.

The new system went from everything just adds to the dicepool to the dicepool should consist of attribute and skill for the most part and ware gives mostly different "boni" on top of that.
(A totally different question form the system in general are the specific boni you get. It is like questioning the skill system, because you do not like how one specific skill is handled.)

As a mechanic the idea of wireless boni is good, because it stoped the no-brainer that was skinlink just keeping it offline. The functionality of some things might not be perfect but well, that depends.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm quite happy to explain the reasoning. Simply put, other then things that your archetype pulls you into (typically variants upon combat), combat is the one thing that's gonna kill you. Relying fully on the Face to handle negotiations is fine, because at worst it's going to start a fight. Relying on the hacker to roll a data search is fine because him botching it is at worst going to make things harder later. Basically, in everything but combat, should the specialist screw things up the consequences might be bad, but they're not going to directly kill you. Combat is a different animal from everything else in the system.

And yet, Combat is where the Street Sam Shines, so why are you trying to take his niche away. The face can pick up a gun and contribute. The Rigger is probably contributing with the guns from his Drones. The Investigator is contributing with either his gun (if mundane) or possibly his spells (if awakened with Combat spells). The Mage is contributing with his Magic (or his gun, if not a combat mage). The Bounty Hunter? Guns. The Smuggler? Guns (or maybe a drone). The Ganger? Guns. WHY MUST THE HACKER BE A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE here? His niche in combat is NOT Bricking devices or ware. It is coordinating the team, running their tacnet, tapping the enemy's communications, affecting the environment, pulling data from the environment, and oh yeah, GUNS.

The Hacker has more important things to do than screw with other people's gear and ware.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Every non-combat specialty has in-specialty combat options of varying effectiveness. The mage can cast, the rigger can rig, the Face gets Leadership, the infiltrator can make use of his stealth, and so on. To repeat what I've asked on many occasions to get only silence in response, for what design reason do you think the hacker should be an exception from this?

You have been answered many times, by me, if no one else. He is not exempt. His effectivelness is in controlling the availability oif information on the battlefield. It is in the coordination of that information in such a way that the team is more effective that the Hacker Shines. THAT is the power of the Hacker in combat, not his theoretical ability to screw with someone's smartlink or wired reflexes (which is just stupid, as that equipment should never be vulnerable to such crap in the first place).

[phlapjack77]

Even the cheapest deck is pretty effective, so you can get into the hacking game for the occasional door lock or camera if you've got a halfway decent Logic and are willing to spend about 10 skill points on it.

For about 50,000 nuyen you can put together a deck running Virtual Machine (Stealth and Toolbox) and have 5 Sleaze, 4 Data Processing, 2 Firewall, and 1 Attack. Limit yourself to Hacking and Computer, and you're perfectly capable of the following Matrix actions:

Edit File, Format Device, Hack on the Fly, Matrix Perception, Matrix Search, Reboot Device, Spoof Command, Trace Icon

You'll get trashed if you try to jump into hosts and tweak off enemy deckers or IC, but that's the price of not actually specializing in the field.

EDIT: This is actually a comparable price for branching from one specialty into the base level of any other. Wired Reflexes set you back about 40k, and is pretty much the absolute bare minimum necessary to consider an otherwise mundane character combat-effective.

This is an interesting idea - thanks! I'll be looking into making just this type of character now. If it works out, I can scratch one of my complaints off the list...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And the point of wireless bonuses is in no small part to diminish that "if", so that having wireless on isn't strictly foolish. The implementation causes a bit of an issue for that, though.

For anyone in a Security/Military/Shadowrunner professions, Wireless Bonuses are entirely Foolish, and are something that could get you killed before you even knew you were opposed. That is the problem with them. No one in the industry would have their ware wireless enabled, and only their comms would be detectable. Any other stance on that from a professional standpoint is just ludicrous. Who cares what the common man does, they are not the concern of the game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

EDIT: This is actually a comparable price for branching from one specialty into the base level of any other. Wired Reflexes set you back about 40k, and is pretty much the absolute bare minimum necessary to consider an otherwise mundane character combat-effective.

I disagree with this thought too... Your Mundane can be combat effective without Wires.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As a mechanic the idea of wireless boni is good, because it stoped the no-brainer that was skinlink just keeping it offline. The functionality of some things might not be perfect but well, that depends.

Actually, it doesn't. Because you still have the No-Brainer of just keeping it offline. None of the characters I have made actaully have need of the idiotic bonuses that are provided. As such, Wireless would never be enabled. *shrug*

[Shadow Knight]

I don't think those premises are fundamental to the case - frequency and importance of combat are not relevant to the reasoning at hand; consequence and combat's exceptional status in that matter are what's involved in the reasoning. And I am making every effort I can to be objective. As to the test I'm applying, it's a particular set of conditions, not simply a matter of opinion - I make every effort I can to be objective about these things, as approaching design problems on the basis of personal tastes is an especially terrible habit to get into.



Every non-combat specialty has in-specialty combat options of varying effectiveness. The mage can cast, the rigger can rig, the Face gets Leadership, the infiltrator can make use of his stealth, and so on. To repeat what I've asked on many occasions to get only silence in response, for what design reason do you think the hacker should be an exception from this?



I never suggested that he should be stealing the Sam's place - and you have absolutely no cause for thinking that's what I've been arguing.



Yeah, that would be good - I would prefer a system where a cyberdeck helped you hack better, rather than being absolutely required to get in on the action at all (though, technically, it's apparently legit to use Edge to push the limit in order to hack with a 'link). Plus, actions using Computer or Hardware to be able to do things with your equipment that you normally shouldn't be able to would be kind of awesome.

the problem with your premise is that the Decker does get to use his special ability. you just insist that the Decker get to always be able to apply it. even though no other character has that requirement from you. in fact you specifically make the Decker an exception with your test.not every situation is the place for the Decker to apply their abilities. yet you insist that be the test.

[Dolanar]

I would like to test other concepts against your test, I don't think we have heard all of the parameters that you test for Rhat, could you detail the requirements for the full test you are basing it on? (if it was already mentioned, I apologize, I don't remember it in the 21 pages we've gone through.)

[Irion]

Actually, it doesn't. Because you still have the No-Brainer of just keeping it offline. None of the characters I have made actaully have need of the idiotic bonuses that are provided. As such, Wireless would never be enabled. *shrug*

I would say, it depends. If you think you are facing a decker worth his salt, you probably turn it off to be on the safe side. If you are just attacking a gang and you expect only physical resistance but a heavy one at that, well....

It is not the "no-brainer" it was before. Granted, some of the boni are very badly choosen, because you would not take the ware at all to begin with.

[Dolanar]

Aside from a small handful of the options, I can't see many that would make or break a build. In Fact aside from looking it over, aside from the pieces that are plain blackmail (Init cyber, & skillwires) require a wireless to get their full benefits, the only pieces I would consider turning on Wireless for would be my Vision Enhancement, & Audio Enhancement.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would say, it depends. If you think you are facing a decker worth his salt, you probably turn it off to be on the safe side. If you are just attacking a gang and you expect only physical resistance but a heavy one at that, well....

It is not the "no-brainer" it was before. Granted, some of the boni are very badly choosen, because you would not take the ware at all to begin with.

I would not enable Wireless for any reason, at this point, because the bonuses are moronic. So, sorry, still a no-brainer. *shrug*

[Medicineman]

I would not enable Wireless for any reason, at this point, because the bonuses are moronic. So, sorry, still a no-brainer. *shrug*

I would do it for throwing Knifes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
(And If You follow Logik the same Bonus MUST exist for Bullets(akin to Tracer Ammo ), but Logic and WiFi Bonus... two different pair of shoes...)

He who dances with two different Shoes
Medicineman

[Voran]

Chameleon stealth armor is fun too. Be sneaky, but make sure that wireless is on!

[Irion]

I would do it for throwing Knifes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
(And If You follow Logik the same Bonus MUST exist for Bullets(akin to Tracer Ammo ), but Logic and WiFi Bonus... two different pair of shoes...)

He who dances with two different Shoes
Medicineman

I can't really follow you on that one, because bullets tend to be quite different from knifes in a lot of aspects. The most notable would be size.

So going for the same explaination for bullets would seem odd to me. But a lot of things there seem odd.


As much as I like the idea of toggeling between to modes with costs and benefits it would have been even better if they would have started form a "fluff" point of view and then based the mechanical boni on that. If for some stuff a bonus would not have been possible ok.

Now it is just like "the matrix is magic". But on the other hand it has been "magic" in 4th too.

[DWC]

Chameleon stealth armor is fun too. Be sneaky, but make sure that wireless is on!

Yeah. Nothing helps me hide quite like having a pinpointable EM signature. I'm pretty sure everything my Missions character has except for commlinks and micro transceivers is a Throwback, since the Risk/Reward curve is so totally out of whack.

[Sendaz]

Also check the extra features, seriously turn off the green lights. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would do it for throwing Knifes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
(And If You follow Logik the same Bonus MUST exist for Bullets(akin to Tracer Ammo ), but Logic and WiFi Bonus... two different pair of shoes...)

He who dances with two different Shoes
Medicineman

Well, maybe Throwing Knives... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Chameleon stealth armor is fun too. Be sneaky, but make sure that wireless is on!

I remember reading a story reference in one of the books to a character that went quite out of his way to ensure he could sneak into a rather secured facility. Almost got away with it too...

What gave him away was the RFID tag in his brand name underwear that he had forgotten to disable.

[Voran]

it does certainly lead to an odd mix of metagame and 'how would we play it if I was really my character". Metagame has 'tags are in everything", while character response is "Remove tags from everything. Make fake tags to not appear blatantly suspicious in the always-on-always-active commlink zone.

to the point that it should almost be like the 'common sense' quality which just sorta handwaves things a character would do unless they've got a flaw, because failing to do so would be DOOOM.

[RHat]

You have been answered many times, by me, if no one else. He is not exempt. His effectivelness is in controlling the availability oif information on the battlefield. It is in the coordination of that information in such a way that the team is more effective that the Hacker Shines. THAT is the power of the Hacker in combat, not his theoretical ability to screw with someone's smartlink or wired reflexes (which is just stupid, as that equipment should never be vulnerable to such crap in the first place).

So... Things that require the GM to be nice, or for the opponents to be using specific things that many may not? Nowhere near general enough to count.

For anyone in a Security/Military/Shadowrunner professions, Wireless Bonuses are entirely Foolish, and are something that could get you killed before you even knew you were opposed. That is the problem with them. No one in the industry would have their ware wireless enabled, and only their comms would be detectable. Any other stance on that from a professional standpoint is just ludicrous. Who cares what the common man does, they are not the concern of the game.

Or you run silent so that they don't see you - you're already doing the same thing with your comms, and the odds of having anything online killing you don't really scale up from one device online to as many devices as you can slave online.

Actually, it doesn't. Because you still have the No-Brainer of just keeping it offline. None of the characters I have made actaully have need of the idiotic bonuses that are provided. As such, Wireless would never be enabled. *shrug*

A line of reasoning which suggests that you would have a different opinion if the bonuses were stronger. Is this the case?

the problem with your premise is that the Decker does get to use his special ability. you just insist that the Decker get to always be able to apply it. even though no other character has that requirement from you. in fact you specifically make the Decker an exception with your test.not every situation is the place for the Decker to apply their abilities. yet you insist that be the test.

No, actually the decker's not at all an exception, as you'll see in a moment.

I would like to test other concepts against your test, I don't think we have heard all of the parameters that you test for Rhat, could you detail the requirements for the full test you are basing it on? (if it was already mentioned, I apologize, I don't remember it in the 21 pages we've gone through.)

I'm starting to wonder if I posted it in the first place - and if I have, it's gotten missed. So, in brief but semi-formal definition:

1) It must be general - meaning that it cannot rely on specific elements to function.

- For example, if spell casting required that the mage have access to convergences of ley lines or for the opponent to be using special items that were astrally targetable, that would not satisfy this test.
- It should be noted that this condition does not prohibit exceptional circumstances that deny the use of the ability - such as mana voids, to continue the magic example. What is important is that such conditions are, in fact, properly exceptional.

2) It must be possible for a specialist to make a direct and meaningful contribution to the team's success this way.

- Using Leadership as an example, extra Initiative could mean that the Street Sam gets another pass, or that he can take an Interrupt action that he might have otherwise had to sacrifice a pass for, or it might mean the team has the time to get away from the grenade where they otherwise might not; Rally is very valuable. Direct lets you make any member of the team better at what they do then they would otherwise be, which in a high defense environment can be the difference between the Street Sam wasting That One Adept or missing and leaving that enemy the chance to take someone on the team out. Inspire can be the difference between successfully ambushing the enemy and not, though that's in part due to weird surprise rules.

3) The barrier to entry from within the specialty cannot be very high - it can exist, but it must be minimal.

- To take Riggers as an example, all they have to do is take Gunnery and put a weapon on a drone; that constitutes about the highest barrier to entry.

4) The effectiveness of these actions should be correlated to the barrier to entry for the specialty.

- For example, what a Mage can do in a fight is more effective than what you can do with the Stealth skills alone in a fight, but as the barrier to entry of being a mage is higher, this is certainly acceptable.

As a more general design point (and not a requirement of this test), the action should be against the enemy or segue into action against the enemy. Some of the roles violate this point (such as the Face), but in those cases there's nothing you can do about that so there's no choice but to accept that..

Does anyone take issue with the above conditions? Leaving deckers aside, can you think of a specialty that fails these conditions?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does anyone take issue with the above conditions? Leaving deckers aside, can you think of a specialty that fails these conditions?

The SR4A Hacker does not fail these Conditions at all.
The SR5 Decker IS NOT easily accessible at all. In fact, they are the epitome of NOT ACCESSIBLE. Of course, that has a lot do do with the Economics of the new edition, which are just horrible, in my opinion.

Problem is, all situations are situational, and not general, so I think your Definitions fail outright. We have provided you a plethora of situations, and you continue to lump them is as not general enough. Sorry, but others disagree. *shrug*

Hackers in SR4A could make Direct and Meaningful contributions in Combat. Again, I know this becuase I did it for 3 years. *shrug*

[Shadow Knight]

So... Things that require the GM to be nice, or for the opponents to be using specific things that many may not? Nowhere near general enough to count.



Or you run silent so that they don't see you - you're already doing the same thing with your comms, and the odds of having anything online killing you don't really scale up from one device online to as many devices as you can slave online.



A line of reasoning which suggests that you would have a different opinion if the bonuses were stronger. Is this the case?



No, actually the decker's not at all an exception, as you'll see in a moment.



I'm starting to wonder if I posted it in the first place - and if I have, it's gotten missed. So, in brief but semi-formal definition:

1) It must be general - meaning that it cannot rely on specific elements to function.

- For example, if spell casting required that the mage have access to convergences of ley lines or for the opponent to be using special items that were astrally targetable, that would not satisfy this test.
- It should be noted that this condition does not prohibit exceptional circumstances that deny the use of the ability - such as mana voids, to continue the magic example. What is important is that such conditions are, in fact, properly exceptional.

2) It must be possible for a specialist to make a direct and meaningful contribution to the team's success this way.

- Using Leadership as an example, extra Initiative could mean that the Street Sam gets another pass, or that he can take an Interrupt action that he might have otherwise had to sacrifice a pass for, or it might mean the team has the time to get away from the grenade where they otherwise might not; Rally is very valuable. Direct lets you make any member of the team better at what they do then they would otherwise be, which in a high defense environment can be the difference between the Street Sam wasting That One Adept or missing and leaving that enemy the chance to take someone on the team out. Inspire can be the difference between successfully ambushing the enemy and not, though that's in part due to weird surprise rules.

3) The barrier to entry from within the specialty cannot be very high - it can exist, but it must be minimal.

- To take Riggers as an example, all they have to do is take Gunnery and put a weapon on a drone; that constitutes about the highest barrier to entry.

4) The effectiveness of these actions should be correlated to the barrier to entry for the specialty.

- For example, what a Mage can do in a fight is more effective than what you can do with the Stealth skills alone in a fight, but as the barrier to entry of being a mage is higher, this is certainly acceptable.

As a more general design point (and not a requirement of this test), the action should be against the enemy or segue into action against the enemy. Some of the roles violate this point (such as the Face), but in those cases there's nothing you can do about that so there's no choice but to accept that..

Does anyone take issue with the above conditions? Leaving deckers aside, can you think of a specialty that fails these conditions?

The Problem RHat is you assume things are not available that would generally be available in most situations in Shadowrun. IE cameras would likely be available most places and hackable. Unless you are way out in the boonies. Lights would be avalable in most places as well. Ditto for cars. Comms should be available for hacking in most situations as most people have commlinks including Gangers...

And in general the GM should be yes anding things...

Decker: are there camera's I can hack into around here?

GM: yes and they are here here and here. this one is a PTZ and these are fixed angles. This one appears to be currently being hacked by someone else...

Not so much the GM being nice as the GM playing the world as it is not as you RHat seem to think it is.

[RHat]

The Problem RHat is you assume things are not available that would generally be available in most situations in Shadowrun. IE cameras would likely be available most places and hackable. Unless you are way out in the boonies. Lights would be avalable in most places as well. Ditto for cars. Comms should be available for hacking in most situations as most people have commlinks including Gangers...

And in general the GM should be yes anding things...

Decker: are there camera's I can hack into around here?

GM: yes and they are here here and here. this one is a PTZ and these are fixed angles. This one appears to be currently being hacked by someone else...

Not so much the GM being nice as the GM playing the world as it is not as you RHat seem to think it is.

In many interpretations of the Barrens, working cameras or wireless controls for lights (given that much of what's out there is liable to be frigging ancient, hence why they need the toaster chains just to get access to the broader Matrix) are unlikely. And once you get into "the GM should be doing this", you've failed the first condition. It doesn't help that hacking someone's commlink isn't a productive enterprise if they're not using it for anything related to combat - and a lot of gangers wouldn't be, especially if they don't have what they'd need for instant communication via electronic means.

TJ: If you have a problem with the test itself, feel free to actually raise an argument. I'd also like to see you outline how the SR4A hacker meets those conditions.