Wireless bonus rules suck., Lets write the tacnet rules they should have used. Options

[SpellBinder]

Maybe fluff, but on page 421: "Your Ares Alpha can’t auto-adjust for the wind direction and speed if it can’t download local up-to-the-second weather conditions,"

Page 428, where the Ares Alpha is detailed, says it has a smartgun system as stock equipment.

In essence, a smartgun can't benefit you (DP bonus) unless it's got a fraggin' clue what the weather's like, even if you're underground where it doesn't matter.

And if the opposition leaves all their wireless stuff on... Data Spike (10 Matrix Damage with a dice pool of 18+ is quite possible for starting decker characters). I'm sure said corporation will love repairing and/or replacing numerous pairs of cybereyes; maybe a drop in the bucket on the bottom line, but it's also downtime in lost man/hours. Then there's those same guards that just had flaming bits of ball lightning in their eye sockets...

Remember, those of us familiar with older editions, particularly of SR4/SR4a, are having issues because of the sudden and mandatory wireless necessity to get many of the same benefits that did not require any kind of wireless functionality before. A hidden arm slide, for example, used to put a handgun into your hand for a Free Action, even if it was purely mechanical in nature. Now it must be wirelessly connected to the Matrix in order to do the same, and unless I missed it it doesn't state that it must be part of your PAN with a pair of trodes to get this split second of extra speed.

[Goonshine]

SpellBinder, thanks for looking the info up.

I think corporations are much more willing to be cruel and indifferent to their employees and much nicer to the people who buy their products. Maybe they do have to send a guard off to semi-elective cybersurgery and a few weeks of counselling but it is better to pay that than risk there being no primary footage of the time a paying customer was accidentally caught in crossfire, and another megacorp gleefully leading a wrongful death lawsuit against them.

I've been playing Shadowrun on and off since first edition myself, so the Matrix changes in the last two editions are huge changes for myself as well. The first time I heard the Matrix was reworked to be all wireless in 4e I thought it was stupid. How could they ruin decking like that? Then I looked back on it and remembered a time when you had to draw up an entirely separate run for the decker alone, with squares and circles and triangles, on a lonely piece of graph paper. Too many times I saw a runner team just opt to say, "We hire someone for Matrix overwatch" and have the GM make a handful of rolls to determine the results.

Now I look at the changes in 5e and I think, finally, the Matrix is actually integrated in some way with the real world. The decker can actually play support in combat, instead of sacrificing active skill rank for some points in pistols to plink off a few shots. The decker finally reaching the point of being an integral team member strikes me as a good thing.

There have always been inconsistencies in the game, like how mana spells and aura interact, or how fast an autofire would complete ingame vs. how fast it would be in real life. That things were one way in one edition and now they have changed in this new edition doesn't bother me so much as it used to. Sure, it might used to have been a free action, now it is not. I can roll with that. I understand if it is a sticking point for you, but I think that bringing back the decker and leaving a little vulnerability for the runners is a decent trade off.

You get to the heart of the problem when you mention a decker burning out someone's eyes with a dataspike though. The main problem I see is the risk of permanent cyberware damage vs. reward for using wireless, which will never really be enough to a player. So why not rule that you can crash cyberware but not destroy it with that dataspike? Have the affected system come back online after x number of combat passes. This one change would certainly put more people at ease, and still leave the door open for some Matrix based attacks during combat.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread from the discussion about the tactical network, I just wanted to provide the opinion that maybe we don't need so drastic a patch to the rules to smooth out the problems with wireless.

[Dolanar]

That's the thing though, Bricking in its most basic form is supposed to be temporary, but the fluff involved suggests that you have fire & such burning through the piece that just got bricked. For a gun, ok, just rule, that it gets dropped, no worries, time to pull out your back up. Sword? ok it still has a nice edge on it. but your cybereyes which are socketed in & connected to your brain? what are we as player's supposed to make of that? from a temporary inconvenience?

I am fine with working around wireless, I will just revamp things or eliminate options as needed, but I would like some sort of semi official idea of what should take priority, the fluff that was written to go with Bricking? or the lack of rules to go along with the effects of bricking Cyberware. As it is right now, if someone were to brick cybereyes in my game I'd rule permanent blindness & having to go through some sort of regenerative therapy to be able to get the cybereyes fixed, & that would be a mild case.

[Smash]

But as to why the smartgun gets a wireless bonus, I would point to using RFID triangulation instead of wind resistance as a reason that it gives benefits for having wireless on indoors. Like the examples I mentioned, it makes somewhat more sense to believe that your smartgun is running some formulas to calculate the location of the vital parts of the target automatically based on an aggregriate of their radio signatures, as opposed to logging in to weather.com.

Well said. Devices are made to spit out loads of information that other devices might find useful or can make useful. People are taking this 'wireless' concept down one single narrow path based on reality.

Why would corporate security leave wireless on? The most important reason is tracking. Every time that smartgun goes off it is recorded, everything a guard sees through his eyes is immediately available on the servers. As soon as a firefight breaks out, not only does everyone know about it, but they immediately have an accurate model of what is happening. Ares can use the data for bullet trajectories to decide which of their guards performed best under fire, while Lone Star can use the same info to protect themselves from lawsuits from their clients ("No, our bullets clearly missed your employees by more than 3cm, which by our service contract is an acceptable distance for safe counterfire"). If any corporate employee decides change jobs or go rogue, that equipment can also be shut down remotely, adding an extra problem for possible defectors.

I think another good reason is that hackers just aren't that usual. Just because every 4th runner is one (and who's to say how many groups of runners may operate in a single city. I don't think it's meant to be all that many) doesn't mean that every 4th schlub is one. The wireless reflexes and reflex booster argument that keeps coming up seems rather flawed to me. Why do they have wireless? Probably because they're designed as military tech and that is large scale confrontations there probably isn't much in the way of front-line hacking. In addition, having no wired connection means less invasive surgery, quicker recovery times, less hardware and therefore less cost.

[Dolanar]

Maybe not every 4th schlub, but we are runners, we go after things that other deckers are hired to protect more often than Joe the plumber does. Data Steals are probably many people's bread & butter, & Data Protection is a non-running Decker's bread & butter usually, as are security system admins, So running into a Decker is not unusual Granted this will vary by game, a street level game will probably deal with them far less, while a game that has you running against AAA Corpsec teams will probably have you running against decker's more often.

[Shadow Knight]

SpellBinder, thanks for looking the info up.

I think corporations are much more willing to be cruel and indifferent to their employees and much nicer to the people who buy their products. Maybe they do have to send a guard off to semi-elective cybersurgery and a few weeks of counselling but it is better to pay that than risk there being no primary footage of the time a paying customer was accidentally caught in crossfire, and another megacorp gleefully leading a wrongful death lawsuit against them.

I've been playing Shadowrun on and off since first edition myself, so the Matrix changes in the last two editions are huge changes for myself as well. The first time I heard the Matrix was reworked to be all wireless in 4e I thought it was stupid. How could they ruin decking like that? Then I looked back on it and remembered a time when you had to draw up an entirely separate run for the decker alone, with squares and circles and triangles, on a lonely piece of graph paper. Too many times I saw a runner team just opt to say, "We hire someone for Matrix overwatch" and have the GM make a handful of rolls to determine the results.

Now I look at the changes in 5e and I think, finally, the Matrix is actually integrated in some way with the real world. The decker can actually play support in combat, instead of sacrificing active skill rank for some points in pistols to plink off a few shots. The decker finally reaching the point of being an integral team member strikes me as a good thing.

There have always been inconsistencies in the game, like how mana spells and aura interact, or how fast an autofire would complete ingame vs. how fast it would be in real life. That things were one way in one edition and now they have changed in this new edition doesn't bother me so much as it used to. Sure, it might used to have been a free action, now it is not. I can roll with that. I understand if it is a sticking point for you, but I think that bringing back the decker and leaving a little vulnerability for the runners is a decent trade off.

You get to the heart of the problem when you mention a decker burning out someone's eyes with a dataspike though. The main problem I see is the risk of permanent cyberware damage vs. reward for using wireless, which will never really be enough to a player. So why not rule that you can crash cyberware but not destroy it with that dataspike? Have the affected system come back online after x number of combat passes. This one change would certainly put more people at ease, and still leave the door open for some Matrix based attacks during combat.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread from the discussion about the tactical network, I just wanted to provide the opinion that maybe we don't need so drastic a patch to the rules to smooth out t
he problems with wireless.

The problem is that sure the corps don't care about their employees. But if they keep having to replace them because shadowrunners bricked their gear... well that is going to have a serious impact on their bottom line. If the Shadowrunners their Mr. Johnson hired can't get the job done because of bricked cyberware.. That also is going to effect their bottom line... The Civilians sueing them over bricked cyberware that script kiddies bricked because it is funny is not going to have a good effect on their bottom line. The whole wireless scenario for cyberware just does not make sense on any level. Security wise... bad idea, Employee wise bad idea, public wise bad idea.....

The whole premise of we are going to force wireless bonuses on the players to give hackers something to do....Means you are forcing a lack of security on the players... Which the Corps would never do. They would never force a security flaw on their own forces...Because that would be in a word....STUPID.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are people who routinely scrub themselves down with tag erasers, who run totally dark and leave off all wireless bonuses, and come up as total blanks to your Matrix senses. What about those crafty devils? Well, what about them, those who have even no commlink? Well, unless they are using magic to communicate, they are completely cut off from their own team, and will have to communicate by shouting or waving hands or smoke signals. Good luck to them! Even now, even today, almost every damn person you know, almost everyone in world, has a cellphone on them. And don't tell me you are the kind of person who always turns off your cell phone in the movie theatre instead of just flipping it to silent, or that you would happily cut it off as soon as the bullets stop flying because hey, who really wants to call for help?

I am the kind of person who does not own a cellphone, a tablet or a netbook. Why? Because there is NO Reason that someone needs to talk to me 24/7/365. I have no need of such connectivity, even today (because I am not so desperate for instant communications in 37 different flavors). So... Maybe that is one of the reasons I think that the wireless bonuses are so stupid, as they exist currently. If you are in the Security Field (in whatever manner you choose to describe) in Shadowrun, you would be a moron to have your Cyberware (and the vast majority of your other electronics) wireless enabled. *shrug*

[KCKitsune]

I have a smart phone and a tablet/netbook (HP Slatebook x2) but I don't have a Wireless Internet plan because like Tymeaus, I don't need to be on the Internet 24/7/365. If I want to get online and I'm on the road I hit a McD's and use their wifi.

@Goonshine: what if the opposition is using laser links? Sure they need line of sight with one another, but it's doable. What if they're using non-standard frequencies to communicate and are rotating those frequencies so you don't know what to listen for.

Also, you're Wired Reflexes example, what's to prevent the Sam from getting a piece of 'ware with JUST a Matrix receiver? He's getting all those wonderful signals your version of the system would generate, but wouldn't transmit anything BECAUSE. IT. CAN'T! The sam gets the benefits, but none of the drawbacks.

[Sendaz]

Also, you're Wired Reflexes example, what's to prevent the Sam from getting a piece of 'ware with JUST a Matrix receiver? He's getting all those wonderful signals your version of the system would generate, but wouldn't transmit anything BECAUSE. IT. CAN'T! The sam gets the benefits, but none of the drawbacks.

Now that is a good idea, but I doubt the GM would give it.

The idea of the wireless bonus is the two way communication between the devices. For a smartgun it has to give it's location to be able to access the suitable data for winds and such. Again though I foresee some bright techie building a more portable system that you can just drop and it will start assessing local wind and other factors and start pumping data in a limited area for your own smartgun to utilize the information.

Your Wired reflexes don't really talk as much to the Matrix, but it has to validate updates/patches otherwise how do you know that was a valid download and not some malware? Likewise it would send in error reports/performance information that goes toward the next patch/update. But then other users are providing the performance reports so those patches will be coming out anyway, will they really be delayed just by the shadow community not chiming in?

A medkit is a good example of benefitting from the online connection as it allows it a much better datapool and additional instructions to allow it to operate by itself.

But to be fair, how much of this really needs to be so constant? For most devices, why can't it just require a daily or weekly update that you then pop online for briefly to download just to keep SOTA status and then back to offline?

I mean if you are talking about the rumoured Move by Wireless System which absolutely HAS to be online to even provide basic function that's different but the ongoing debate over wireless, the online bonuses and alternate methods is going to go on for some time yet.

[SpellBinder]

...

There have always been inconsistencies in the game, like how mana spells and aura interact, or how fast an autofire would complete ingame vs. how fast it would be in real life. That things were one way in one edition and now they have changed in this new edition doesn't bother me so much as it used to. Sure, it might used to have been a free action, now it is not. I can roll with that. I understand if it is a sticking point for you, but I think that bringing back the decker and leaving a little vulnerability for the runners is a decent trade off.

You get to the heart of the problem when you mention a decker burning out someone's eyes with a dataspike though. The main problem I see is the risk of permanent cyberware damage vs. reward for using wireless, which will never really be enough to a player. So why not rule that you can crash cyberware but not destroy it with that dataspike? Have the affected system come back online after x number of combat passes. This one change would certainly put more people at ease, and still leave the door open for some Matrix based attacks during combat.

...

If this were a whole new edition, like the transition from SR3 to SR4, it wouldn't be such a problem for me; there was a gap of several years and a completely new game mechanic then. SR4 to SR5 is "the next day" and the same foundation of rules, but with many changes that don't always seem to make sense. I know I'm not the only one feeling like this.

As for the Reboot part, that was in SR4 too. You could crash a node (which is basically any wireless device) with a Hacking + Exploit (System + Firewall, Combat Action) Extended Test, but the node would get a +4 to its Firewall if you didn't hit the threshold in the first Combat Action. A crashed device took its Device Rating/System in turns restarting, then made a System + Response (10, 1 Combat Turn) Extended test before it was up and running again; much slower compared to the single Combat Turn of SR5. Granted it's slower than a Data Spike in SR5, not as costly or long lasting for the victim, not everything would be as useless while rebooting, technomancers would kick ass doing this compared to hackers... Oh, wait, maybe that's why... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

...

But to be fair, how much of this really needs to be so constant? For most devices, why can't it just require a daily or weekly update that you then pop online for briefly to download just to keep SOTA status and then back to offline?

...

By RAW, it must constantly be online. Or at least online as long as you want the appropriate bonuses.

[Dolanar]

ahh the items such as medkits, now these items I can work with, why? because the wireless only needs to be on while you're using it, & generally you only use these items for a round maybe 2, then you're done with them for a lil while, so I want to use a medkit, I pick it up, activate the wireless, use it for what I need, then wireless off. if a Decker is waiting for me to activate that medkit just to find an open connection, then he's rather bored isn't he?

[Shadow Knight]

But as to why the smartgun gets a wireless bonus, I would point to using RFID triangulation instead of wind resistance as a reason that it gives benefits for having wireless on indoors. Like the examples I mentioned, it makes somewhat more sense to believe that your smartgun is running some formulas to calculate the location of the vital parts of the target automatically based on an aggregriate of their radio signatures, as opposed to logging in to weather.com.

And why on earth would you want to broadcast more data to make you easier to target?

[SpellBinder]

And why on earth would you want to broadcast more data to make you easier to target?

So the decker has something to do in combat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Medicineman]

And why on earth would you want to broadcast more data to make you easier to target?

Because CGL thinks its more Fun for The Hacker and the whole gaming Group if everything is hackable
( & see Spellbinders Answer)

with a Fun Dance (nhoooot !)
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because CGL thinks its more Fun for The Hacker and the whole gaming Group if everything is hackable
( & see Spellbinders Answer)

with a Fun Dance (nhoooot !)
Medicineman

They probably should have thought on that one a bit more. *shrug*

[Voran]

Also RFID triangulation probably would make a smartgun useless ...in the jungle. There's no wireless out here! My smartgun doesn't work!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also RFID triangulation probably would make a smartgun useless ...in the jungle. There's no wireless out here! My smartgun doesn't work!

Unintended Consequences. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DWC]

Also RFID triangulation probably would make a smartgun useless ...in the jungle. There's no wireless out here! My smartgun doesn't work!

Nah. You're supposed to have a satellite link to connect out to the matrix so you can have a massive EM footprint.

[Voran]

Maybe the critter you're trying to shoot has RFID tags from the guys it ate.

[ikarinokami]

I do think that rhat is doing a terrible job of defending his position. What he really should be saying is a as formally designed the matrix users could not effect combat with there matrix specific skills. people who were great as physical skills could, they could use a gun, a knife, sneak about, (this catagory would encompass more than street sams, it would include any person who relies on there phyical skills to get by), those who excell in mental skills could ( leadership this would be your faces, your demolition experts, setting traps, using poison gas, intellegence), those who could use magic could, whose who controlled drones could, the matrix user himself could not using his special ability directly affect combat absent some other envirmental factor.

I think that is correct, the problem then is that you just can't implement a solution and ignore the logic of the universe. There is no good reason for putting cyberware on line. However you can get around that. The government wants to track all cyberware purchases and thus mandate that all cyberware must be online at all times. I could see governments doing that.

The next problem, is why would shadowrunners, gang bangers, and those people who give the finger to the law, why would they do it. They would not, there just is too much risk. they would instead create a tactnet.

therefore design principals should not be that the matrix wireless rules suck , but instead they are such that no shadowrunner, gang banger or high level corperate security firm would use them.

however people like advantages and so they developed the tacnet to give themselves those advantages.


You would still need to mantain the original intent that matrix user have away to directly influnces combat outside of enivrmental factors. I agree that a GM should be doing this, but i think as a game desing you have to assume to the worst of a gm, and designs as many tools as possible to get the game to work with a worst gm as you can imagine.

base princpals.
1. the tactnet shouldnt be expose it's users to catastrophic consquences- why use it if it did?
2. A matrix user is required to run, maintian it and consquently are vunerable to hacking by other matrix users
3.the bonuses should not be numerical, instead they should be on the lines of like the detect life spell. the bonus should let you break the normal limations, but not in a numerical way.
4. this makes the tachnet more meaniful, since it is not made more useful or less useful based on each participannts dice pools.

[SpellBinder]

A serious suggestion for a tac net: Evenly disperse all Matrix Damage (after resistance tests) across all devices (and I mean ALL devices, your goggles, smartgun, commlink, etc.) that are a part of the tac net to a minimum of 1 damage. If there isn't enough Matrix Damage to hit all devices, then only some take the hit. Matrix Damage is continually applied evenly across all devices.

[Sendaz]

A serious suggestion for a tac net: Evenly disperse all Matrix Damage (after resistance tests) across all devices (and I mean ALL devices, your goggles, smartgun, commlink, etc.) that are a part of the tac net to a minimum of 1 damage. If there isn't enough Matrix Damage to hit all devices, then only some take the hit. Matrix Damage is continually applied evenly across all devices.

An interesting idea, but what would be the premise behind it? Since the items are connected via the TacNet they would be sort of their own cloud/distributed processing so damage is spread across the system?

Just picturing the first guy looking at hacking one TacNet member's commlink and has already done 30+ points Matrix damage and it's still going (due to sharing it with the rest of the team) and the poor decker thinking he is hacking God's own Commlink or something.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Or would he notice the damage dissipitating over a virtual web so to speak?

[SpellBinder]

Yeah, their own cloud/distributed processing bit sounds good.

I'd say the dispersed Matrix Damage would be noticeable with a normal Matrix Perception check. Especially if one checks an unhit device and sees it has taken Matrix Damage too.

[leetnoob]

I think at this point it might be best to create a new thread to actually discuss tac-nets (one with a less hostile title probably) because this thread is incredibly derailed

Anyways, to give tac-nets a bit of direction, there are a few design questions to weigh in about the tac-net

First, what are the goals of the tac-net?
From what I gather, it seems that the goals are...
1) To make the matrix important in combat without having special conditions on the playing field without having a major security issue (IE why would you put your spine out in public airspace)
2) Give a sense of teamwork and professionalism to the players.
3) Add additional options to the players on how they want to run the group (do we run with a tac-net or without, if this is well written there should be no illusion of choice)

Next, there are some questions that have to be answered

Is the Tac-net a piece of hardware or software?
If it is hardware, you can do some cool things with it, suppose you treat it like a cyberdeck or RCC and allow it to run tac-net software (I stole this from earlier in the thread, but forgot who suggested it), So you could run some sort of software that would give guns subscribed to it +1 accuracy or +1 to the dice pool, or whatever.
The downside of hardware would be this is another item that presumably the decker would have to pick up. I suppose others could pick it up, but if it is the deckers job to defend it and hack the opposing tac-net why would the face pick it up? Also, how would technomancers work with the tac-net?

If I am wrong about what people are thinking of the ideal tac-net would be, do chime in.

[Dolanar]

Tac Net in its base form from a story or fluff perspective should do a few important things.

1. Support the tactical positioning of the team using it this should be accomplished in a few ways.
a. Allow anyone in the unit to mark people as one of 4 possible targets- Hostile, Neutral, Friendly, or Objective by doing this, someone on Overwatch from a higher vantage point can mark where hostile's, & such for the team as they move into an area to ambush or otherwise deal with the targets.
b. Allow for private & secured communications between the team at medium to long distances, this way the team won't have KE randomly finding their comm channel by accident as they are doing a run.
c. Put any & all information on tactical AR overlay for anyone who wishes to see it. The Decker can find building schematics, put them up on AR overlay, then the Overwatch places known locations on the overlay for the team before the rest even enter the building.

2. It should avoid additional Dice Bloat. We already have large dice pools available, if anything the TacNet should modify existing limits. Additional information can make someone's actions more effective in a situation.

3. One thing to figure out is how it will be incorporated, the simplest method is a basic program, primary program run off a Deck, sub programs run off commlinks or deck's creating a Master/Slave sort of relationship, linking everything to the master program.