Counterspelling Nerf, Surprised this one hasn't been discussed heavily yet Options

[Jaid]

and what a nerf!

counterspelling has changed quite a bit:

1) it requires either a free action, or an interrupt costing 5 initiative, to counterspell any given spell.
2) your counterspelling dice pool is per *combat turn* in SR 5, not per spell or per initiative pass.

now, that's probably nothing new to anyone from 3rd or earlier, being per combat turn (i think that's how often your pool reset, isn't it? it's been a long time), but that was when the other guy also had to take dice out of his counterspell pool to cast spells at you (ie casting and countering spells came from the same die pool, so it was no problem).

so, it may not be a bad idea to have a couple people able to counter spells on your team... because if you go up against an enemy mage that casts a lot of spells (or worse yet, multiple enemy mages), you might just find yourself getting shut down, hard.

this has some pretty scary implications... i mean, if an enemy mage throws a direct combat spell at you, you might just be like "screw it, we'll take the damage. i don't want to risk the next one being a control thoughts and not have anything left to counter *that*"

[Epicedion]

and what a nerf!

counterspelling has changed quite a bit:

1) it requires either a free action, or an interrupt costing 5 initiative, to counterspell any given spell.
2) your counterspelling dice pool is per *combat turn* in SR 5, not per spell or per initiative pass.

now, that's probably nothing new to anyone from 3rd or earlier, being per combat turn (i think that's how often your pool reset, isn't it? it's been a long time), but that was when the other guy also had to take dice out of his counterspell pool to cast spells at you (ie casting and countering spells came from the same die pool, so it was no problem).

so, it may not be a bad idea to have a couple people able to counter spells on your team... because if you go up against an enemy mage that casts a lot of spells (or worse yet, multiple enemy mages), you might just find yourself getting shut down, hard.

this has some pretty scary implications... i mean, if an enemy mage throws a direct combat spell at you, you might just be like "screw it, we'll take the damage. i don't want to risk the next one being a control thoughts and not have anything left to counter *that*"

I haven't gotten a chance to see this play out, but if you have a serious counterspeller -- someone with 6 dice out of chargen -- that means he can throw 2 dice at every attack spell a mage with 3 IPs can dish out. 3 IP mages are going to be a mite rare, so it's probably more like 3 dice at each spell.

Also if there's an area spell you take X dice out of your counterspelling pool and that number applies to everyone targeted by that spell. So if a fireball lands in the middle of your group, you could spend all 6 dice and everyone gets +6 defense dice. Not bad.

Remember the "only one attack action per IP" so it's not like you're going to have mages dropping 6 spells at you in one combat turn. It'll probably be more like 1 to 3, with really powerful mages doing more (but then presumably you'd be a little better yourself).

Also Counterspelling Foci are relatively cheap and add to your spell defense pool -- regardless of the spell type (they give a bonus to dispelling attempts versus their spell type, AND grant flat bonus dice to the spell defense pool). That means getting 10+ spell defense dice per turn is pretty easy, and suddenly enemy magic looks a lot less harsh.

[Skynet]

(...)
Also Counterspelling Foci are relatively cheap and add to your spell defense pool -- regardless of the spell type (they give a bonus to dispelling attempts versus their spell type, AND grant flat bonus dice to the spell defense pool). That means getting 10+ spell defense dice per turn is pretty easy, and suddenly enemy magic looks a lot less harsh.

What gave you that notion?
p.320:

Counterspelling foci add dice equal
to their Force to any Counterspelling attempt, as long as
the countered spell is in the same category as the focus.
It also adds its Force to your spell defense pool.

Edit: And here I go again, starting to type before reading the next sentence... Sorry, will reread the section

Edit2: (Quote from p.320 altered to contain the whole passage) If I read that correctly, you get an increase to your generall spell defense pool and the focus also adds [force] free dice to any counterspelling attempt when used against the correct category.
Sounds like they're really worthwhile now.

[Jaid]

from what i hear (haven't gotten there yet) focus addiction is already looking to be a pretty major problem. mages are already going to want sustaining focuses (probably multiple), and power focuses, and now they need five counterspelling focuses too?

[X-Kalibur]

Are you generally going to need a counterspell focus against health spells? Most mages will have one for combat and maybe illusion spells I'd wager.

[Epicedion]

What gave you that notion?
p.320:

Edit: And here I go again, starting to type before reading the next sentence... Sorry, will reread the section

Edit2: (Quote from p.320 altered to contain the whole passage) If I read that correctly, you get an increase to your generall spell defense pool and the focus also adds [force] free dice to any counterspelling attempt when used against the correct category.
Sounds like they're really worthwhile now.

The way I'm reading it, a Counterspelling attempt is different from Spell Defense. A Counterspelling attempt is an attempt to dispel a quickened or sustained spell, but spell defense is just used as bonus dice for the defense test against a spell.

EDIT: That is, if you have Counterspelling 6 and a Force 5 Combat Counterspelling focus, you'd have 11 spell defense dice, but you wouldn't get +5 again to any dice you spend to defend against a combat spell.

So you wouldn't be able to spend 1 dice to get 6, or 11 dice to get 16.

Actually that would make combat counterspelling foci useless, since I don't think there are any sustained combat spells. Hm.......

[Jaid]

Are you generally going to need a counterspell focus against health spells? Most mages will have one for combat and maybe illusion spells I'd wager.

you'll definitely also want manipulation. mental manipulations are nasty.

detection is a bit more iffy, given that passive spells don't allow resistance. but given that the name of the game is *shadow*run, i would expect one to come in handy fairly often, especially since some of the active detection spells can really ruin your day.

[Skynet]

The way I'm reading it, a Counterspelling attempt is different from Spell Defense. A Counterspelling attempt is an attempt to dispel a quickened or sustained spell, but spell defense is just used as bonus dice for the defense test against a spell.

EDIT: That is, if you have Counterspelling 6 and a Force 5 Combat Counterspelling focus, you'd have 11 spell defense dice, but you wouldn't get +5 again to any dice you spend to defend against a combat spell.

So you wouldn't be able to spend 1 dice to get 6, or 11 dice to get 16.

Actually that would make combat counterspelling foci useless, since I don't think there are any sustained combat spells. Hm.......

Nope, i made sure (at least this time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) to read that part ahead of schedule:

Counterspelling offers the magician two benefits: spell
defense and dispelling.

So Counterspelling is the general term (and yes that means, that a counterspelling focus also helps with dispelling if the category fits).

[Epicedion]

Nope, i made sure (at least this time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) to read that part ahead of schedule:

So Counterspelling is the general term (and yes that means, that a counterspelling focus also helps with dispelling if the category fits).

I think I'm on board with this, though it seems a mite powerful.

Now that I think about it a little more, it'll make knowing about and deactivating your opponent's foci a really big deal. It'd suck to toss out a Force 8 fireball only to find out that the enemy mage can casually drop 18 dice (Counterspelling 6 + Counterspelling Focus (Force 6) defense dice + Counterspelling focus bonus vs combat spells) into the defense pool of his entire team.

[Skynet]

Guess it all comes back to the old saying: Geek the mage first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (And probably best in a mundane fashion.)

Hm, reading the section about deactivating foci... Deactivating a focus gets you drain, the chances aren't the best (disenchanting+ magic vs focus-rating + owners magic) and the only thing it takes to bring it back "online" is a simple action.
The only real benefit i see would be deactivating a sustaining-focus (as this also cancels the sustained spell).

[Jaid]

Guess it all comes back to the old saying: Geek the mage first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (And probably best in a mundane fashion.)

Hm, reading the section about deactivating foci... Deactivating a focus gets you drain, the chances aren't the best (disenchanting+ magic vs focus-rating + owners magic) and the only thing it takes to bring it back "online" is a simple action.
The only real benefit i see would be deactivating a sustaining-focus (as this also cancels the sustained spell).

last i heard (haven't quite read that far) you could astral combat a focus as well, which had longer-lasting results i think?

[Skynet]

Strange: the book mentions that an active focus has an astral form but i couldn't find a rule regarding attacking them directly.
SR2 had rules to do that (but then again: it had rules to target a spell with another spell). (And don't mention grounding.)

If you had a lot of time you could try disenchanting it (takes only touch an d a couple of hours equal to the rating (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

[Shemhazai]

Remember the "only one attack action per IP" so it's not like you're going to have mages dropping 6 spells at you in one combat turn. It'll probably be more like 1 to 3, with really powerful mages doing more (but then presumably you'd be a little better yourself).

Has there been any confirmation of this interpretation in the full rules?

[Psikerlord]

you dont need counterspelling at all in 5e. all spells are resisted with at least 2 attributes, which is a big
change from earlier editions when the target usually only got one. so.. keep those stats at a reasonable level, take cover, and any counterspelling you have is just gravy.

[RelentlessImp]

As an avid Awakened player, I'm actually okay with the Counterspelling nerf. There was never any downside to using it, so your Mage basically declared Counterspelling every round and everyone got to enjoy 12 counterspelling dice added to their pools. Now there's a choice to use it, and when, and you pay something for it. That's what Awakened were really missing in 4E, paying for anything.

[Sendaz]

you dont need counterspelling at all in 5e. all spells are resisted with at least 2 attributes, which is a big
change from earlier editions when the target usually only got one.

Indirect are defended with two stats (Int & Rea) as its sort of like magic bullets but Direct spells still are only resisted by Body For Physical or Will For mana Spells plus any counterspelling you can get. Granted the Directs do not do the same damage as the old days, but it can still add up.

[Psikerlord]

Indirect are defended with two stats (Int & Rea) as its sort of like magic bullets but Direct spells still are only resisted by Body For Physical or Will For mana Spells plus any counterspelling you can get. Granted the Directs do not do the same damage as the old days, but it can still add up.

oh i didnt realise that re the direct combat spells. interesting. I mean there is still a use for counterspelling, in any event, but it is not as crucial as it was previously. Which i think is a good thing.

[Entropian]

You can also use a power focus for counter spelling now. Would that stack with a counter spelling focus? Or would you get the greater of the two?

[Jaid]

You can also use a power focus for counter spelling now. Would that stack with a counter spelling focus? Or would you get the greater of the two?

first of all, power focus doesn't help with spell defense. it adds to your sorcery dice pools, but you don't counterspell with your dice pool. you counterspell with your skill. it will help you if you try to dispel something though.

secondly, any given dicepool can only ever be improved by one focus.

[SpellBinder]

Like in SR4a, a power focus can aid in the use of the Counterspelling skill, but not as the spell is being cast. If it's a Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] vs. spell's Force + caster's Magic (+ Karma), a power focus will aid in that as it is a Magic test.

In any test that your Magic is involved (like Summoning & Binding), you can use a power focus. Counterspelling as a Spell Defense doesn't count as a Magic test.

[Falconer]

Question... how are indirect spells handled.

I glanced at a friends tablet today and couldn't find a definite answer. Curious if anyone else has found one.

Can indirect combat spells be counterspelled. If so when. When the damage is soaked... or when the attack is dodged. None of the combat spells mentioned counterspelling at all.


The counterspelling text itself said the dice are added when the spell is resisted. The specific text for indirects says the attack is an opposed test... but specifically names the damage as resisting the spell damage. I'm guessing this means counterspelling dice if any are added to the soak, not the dodge roll for indirects. Anyone seen anything to the contrary or supporting?

[Mantis]

I would imagine they are added to the first test (dodge), rather than the soak, as that has been the way it was done in previous editions. After all the opposed test is where things like that usually get added, rather than the damage resistance test.

[DoomFrog]

Question... how are indirect spells handled.

I glanced at a friends tablet today and couldn't find a definite answer. Curious if anyone else has found one.

Can indirect combat spells be counterspelled. If so when. When the damage is soaked... or when the attack is dodged. None of the combat spells mentioned counterspelling at all.


The counterspelling text itself said the dice are added when the spell is resisted. The specific text for indirects says the attack is an opposed test... but specifically names the damage as resisting the spell damage. I'm guessing this means counterspelling dice if any are added to the soak, not the dodge roll for indirects. Anyone seen anything to the contrary or supporting?

The Counterspelling dice are added to the Dodge roll.

[Sendaz]

It could be worded better.

In SR4A (pg 185) When a protected character is targeted with a spell, she rolls Counterspelling dice in addition to the appropriate attribute (Body or Willpower) for the resistance test.

So following in this, counterspelling would add to the resistance dice. So if someone toss a flamethrower spell at you while your mage has a counterspell covering you of 4 dice, you would attempt to dodge with reaction & Intuition. If the spell succeeds in hitting you then the Counterspell dice would be added to your Body roll to resist.

Something you should be more concerned about is how the Counterspelling dice are now spent.

In previous edition your counterspell was not used up by an attack and continued to protect against other spells and remained up until the mage dropped it. In the new format it is a dice pool that refreshes every combat turn and is spent against each spell attack you chose to defend from. You have to choose how many dice from this pool to allocate for defense, and you can select how many people (including yourself if you desire) are covered by these defensive dice. They go on to how you can use a free action or pay a init penalty if you are out, but you can read this on pg 294 in SR5.

So if you and your 3 buddies get hit by a Force 6 Fireball and you had a Counterspell pool of 10, you could choose to allot 1 to 10 dice to cover you and your friends and let's say you decided to use 4. Everyone rolls their dodge as normal to try and avoid the blast. Any hit by the fireball would roll Body + Armor ( minus 6 from armor for the AP of the spell ) + the 4 counter spell dice. But those 4 dice are gone from the pool until the start of the next Combat Turn, not the next IP. If another spell comes in before the next combat turn you have to decide if you want to spend any of the 6 remaining dice and so on....

So spend them wisely.

[Umidori]

Previously, counterspelling was just too good. A single mystic adept with a mere 1 point in spellcasting could max out counterspelling, then also Initiate for counterspelling metamagics, and they could always protect their entire team against everything without effort so long as they were within line of sight.

These new changes seem reasonable. Not a nerf as much as a downward balancing.

~Umi