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> Non-decker Matrix Defense, Using stealth RFIDs as decoys
DoomFrog
post Jul 17 2013, 02:29 AM
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So I have been looking over the rules to try and find a way for non-decker runners to protect themselves from getting their gear bricked. Though after looking at the rules I feel like a decker isn't going to do much more damage in a combat turn than a guy with a gun.

Anyways, my idea:

The rules say that if a decker is trying to find icons that are running silently she makes a Matrix Perception test to see if there are devices running silent. The decker can then identify the device through an opposed check. But the rules say that if there are multiple devices running silent the decker needs to choose which one to identify.

So if you spend, say 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on 50 sealth RFID tags, the decker is going to have to choose from the say 60 hidden icons he finds with only a 1 in 6 chance of finding something worth bricking.
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Abstruse
post Jul 17 2013, 02:37 AM
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I can't find anything that says this WON'T work, but expect either an errata or something in the Matrix sourcebook whenever it drops addressing it. And if you play in my game, I'd give you one free pass and that's it (find one RFID tag, you find them all). It just feels cheesier than a 10 kilo block of Velveeta.
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quentra
post Jul 17 2013, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jul 16 2013, 09:37 PM) *
I can't find anything that says this WON'T work, but expect either an errata or something in the Matrix sourcebook whenever it drops addressing it. And if you play in my game, I'd give you one free pass and that's it (find one RFID tag, you find them all). It just feels cheesier than a 10 kilo block of Velveeta.


Fuck that. I think it's a brilliant plan given RAW. Sucks to be a decker ^_^
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Aaron
post Jul 17 2013, 02:52 AM
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That won't work. If you know some detail about what hidden icon you're looking for, you get to look for it specifically (don't recall the page reference off the top of my head). So if there's one Ingram Smartgun and fifty shades of hidden RFID tags, the hacker will be able to look for (and probably spot) the weapon.
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Abstruse
post Jul 17 2013, 02:57 AM
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QUOTE (Aaron @ Jul 16 2013, 08:52 PM) *
That won't work. If you know some detail about what hidden icon you're looking for, you get to look for it specifically (don't recall the page reference off the top of my head). So if there's one Ingram Smartgun and fifty shades of hidden RFID tags, the hacker will be able to look for (and probably spot) the weapon.

I thought so too and specifically read the section on noticing devices (p234-236). You ask if there's anything running silent. You are told by the GM yes or no. If yes, you then can make an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Logic + Sleaze test. If there are more than one icons running silent, you choose randomly which one you make the test against. Not the one you're looking for, try again.

Except...hang on, going to check something...may have found a flaw...
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DWC
post Jul 17 2013, 02:58 AM
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Frankly, I like it. Use the idiocy of the matrix's design to hide in the noise.
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vapor
post Jul 17 2013, 02:58 AM
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Slightly less cheesy but still just as effective is having the entire team carry a half dozen or so Meta Link commlinks each.
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Abstruse
post Jul 17 2013, 03:07 AM
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Okay, not a DIRECT contradiction of the plan, but something you can use as a GM to counter-rules-lawyer against this tactic. The definition of Running Silent on p. 235 states basically you can switch any device you own to Running Silent including your commlink, deck, or living persona. To do so, however, it would need to be part of your PAN or else you wouldn't have access to it. So you can set it to Running Silent all you want, but unless it's slaved to your commlink/deck, you can't keep it going (and if you do, you run up against your slave limit). Again, it's as flexible a reading as the one that generated this tactic, but always remember Rule Zero.
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DoomFrog
post Jul 17 2013, 03:20 AM
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QUOTE (Abstruse @ Jul 16 2013, 06:57 PM) *
I thought so too and specifically read the section on noticing devices (p234-236). You ask if there's anything running silent. You are told by the GM yes or no. If yes, you then can make an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Logic + Sleaze test. If there are more than one icons running silent, you choose randomly which one you make the test against. Not the one you're looking for, try again.

Except...hang on, going to check something...may have found a flaw...


If you find the flaw, please let me know. I also agree that this is a very sleazy way of winning against deckers, but according to RAW it works.

The only question I have about it is what action is it to identify icons. The rules say that a Matrix Perception is a Complex action, which includes both scanning for a device running silent and spotting it. But assuming I have found multiple hidden devices, how many can I identify within one IP (either the first time round or one my second IP).
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Abstruse
post Jul 17 2013, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 16 2013, 09:20 PM) *
If you find the flaw, please let me know. I also agree that this is a very sleazy way of winning against deckers, but according to RAW it works.

The only question I have about it is what action is it to identify icons. The rules say that a Matrix Perception is a Complex action, which includes both scanning for a device running silent and spotting it. But assuming I have found multiple hidden devices, how many can I identify within one IP (either the first time round or one my second IP).

With the rules right now, only one. You decide randomly which icon you identify. If you don't win or you tie, the icon stays hidden. The first net hit gets you what the icon is, and each additional hit gets you more information about it (type, rating, any files it's carrying, what grid it's on, what marks it has on it). I'd expect the Matrix book to boost that so you can split the hits among multiple icons either on the same grid or within the 100m range of your antenna, but that's not in the rules yet.

As far as the flaw, what I have above is the closest I've got. It's not much, but it's enough wiggle room for you to invoke Rule Zero as a GM to shut it down.
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Epicedion
post Jul 17 2013, 04:07 AM
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Looks plausible, but easily defeated. If this becomes common practice, a relatively cheap jammer will provide enough noise to shut down pesky RFIDs and let you get at the chewy commlink center.

EDIT: Also if 150 unknown hidden devices suddenly show up when a spider runs a sweep, he might shit a brick and send for the army.
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Jaid
post Jul 17 2013, 04:11 AM
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"Stealth tags: A stealth tag always runs silent (p. 235)
and has a Sleaze rating equal to its Device Rating."

you don't need to slave a stealth tag. it keeps itself running silent.
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Razhul
post Jul 17 2013, 04:34 AM
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Page 235 specifies in the Matrix Perception sidebar that:
QUOTE
If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).


The "below" then refers to making the proper Computer + Int vs. Logic + Sleaze test. The point is that you can spot (try to spot, really) that ONE icon.

Hence, it's between you and the GM what he defines as a "feature" but "a Persona, not a RFID" might be good enough.
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DoomFrog
post Jul 17 2013, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Razhul @ Jul 16 2013, 08:34 PM) *
The "below" then refers to making the proper Computer + Int vs. Logic + Sleaze test. The point is that you can spot (try to spot, really) that ONE icon.

Hence, it's between you and the GM what he defines as a "feature" but "a Persona, not a RFID" might be good enough.


I can see how that could be an answer. I had thought that line meant that if you spot an icon then the owner switches it to running silent and you lose it (as per the Spotting Duration section on the same page). Then when you scan for hidden devices you can tell which hidden icon is the one you just lost.

But you could then just buy the cheapest deck and the Wrapper program and make all the stealth tags and devices look like credsticks. Though I feel like the Wrapper program only works on devices slaved to the deck which would mean the decker wouldn't need to try to find a useful device in the mess.

But it does come down to what the book means by a "feature" and how the decker knows that feature.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 17 2013, 06:23 AM
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QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 16 2013, 08:49 PM) *
Fuck that. I think it's a brilliant plan given RAW. Sucks to be a decker ^_^
Stick the tags in gel rounds and shoot them at your enemies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Razhul
post Jul 17 2013, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 16 2013, 10:17 PM) *
I can see how that could be an answer. I had thought that line meant that if you spot an icon then the owner switches it to running silent and you lose it (as per the Spotting Duration section on the same page). Then when you scan for hidden devices you can tell which hidden icon is the one you just lost.

But you could then just buy the cheapest deck and the Wrapper program and make all the stealth tags and devices look like credsticks. Though I feel like the Wrapper program only works on devices slaved to the deck which would mean the decker wouldn't need to try to find a useful device in the mess.

But it does come down to what the book means by a "feature" and how the decker knows that feature.



Just for clarification, switching to Silent does not break spotting. Only the Hide Action will break a spot (whether you were running silent to begin with or not). If it's not running silent, a Matrix Perception test will spot it again. If it is, since you already had access to the icon being hidden, you probably determined some feature and should be allowed to immediately roll on Computer+Int again to spot it.

Concerning Wrapper, be aware that it only changes the icon of a device. You could make your weapon look like a tripod, for example. It does not require slaving and just states "your icons" which includes files and pretty much anything you want. Some mad fun can be had with that as you should be able to wrap any of your icons (that you own Marks 4). However, the "look" of an icon is only one feature. If you make all your icons look like a Cyberdeck or Commlink, the GM could rule that "I sort by icons that have XYZ rating or higher" could be a feature. Otherwise, I currently don't see how that's not massively abusable. /shrug

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DoomFrog
post Jul 17 2013, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Razhul @ Jul 16 2013, 10:32 PM) *
. However, the "look" of an icon is only one feature. If you make all your icons look like a Cyberdeck or Commlink, the GM could rule that "I sort by icons that have XYZ rating or higher" could be a feature. Otherwise, I currently don't see how that's not massively abusable. /shrug


See that feels extremely wrong.

If the look for icons is that minor, why does it take an illegal program to override the matrix protocols to change the icons look.

And the idea that, having found a few dozen hidden icons, you can sort them by details about the devices the icons represent seems like it completely bypasses the point of silent running. You need to get a net hit on a matrix perception check to know the rating of a device, so being able to sort all the hidden icons by rating feels very outside the rules.

The idea of the Wrapper program, to me seemed to be to hidden illegal programs and devices when they are running wireless. You don't want a passing Knight Errant officer to see you walking down the street with a duffle bag and you have an icon for a Panther assault cannon following you in AR. So assuming that a decker can pick out a specific device from a list of hidden icons, the wrapper program should be capable of editing that information at least to the point that the decker needs to make another matrix perception check to see through it.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 17 2013, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 17 2013, 01:11 AM) *
See that feels extremely wrong.

If the look for icons is that minor, why does it take an illegal program to override the matrix protocols to change the icons look.

And the idea that, having found a few dozen hidden icons, you can sort them by details about the devices the icons represent seems like it completely bypasses the point of silent running. You need to get a net hit on a matrix perception check to know the rating of a device, so being able to sort all the hidden icons by rating feels very outside the rules.

The idea of the Wrapper program, to me seemed to be to hidden illegal programs and devices when they are running wireless. You don't want a passing Knight Errant officer to see you walking down the street with a duffle bag and you have an icon for a Panther assault cannon following you in AR. So assuming that a decker can pick out a specific device from a list of hidden icons, the wrapper program should be capable of editing that information at least to the point that the decker needs to make another matrix perception check to see through it.


Why is your panther assault cannon online? Why is it even accessing the Martrix while you are travelling? Easiest way to hide is to not enable the wireless; then, no matter what the decker rolls, it still will not be found. *shrug*
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Doc Chaos
post Jul 17 2013, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2013, 03:17 PM) *
Why is your panther assault cannon online? Why is it even accessing the Martrix while you are travelling? Easiest way to hide is to not enable the wireless; then, no matter what the decker rolls, it still will not be found. *shrug*


My thoughts exactly. Any equipment should be turned 'WiFi disabled' at all times and only switched on for the short duration it's actually needed. Of course, if you are in the middle of a run against your neighborhood Generic Corp, INC. building, there's some things you might want to keep on, just in case of trouble (primary weapon, certain 'ware, and related gear), but that would most likely be a manageable amount of items you could slave to a high-rating commlink.
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Sendaz
post Jul 17 2013, 01:45 PM
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If I take Build/Repair in the appropriate skills, what is it going to take threshold wise to completely disable/remove the wifi capacity in these weapons?

Am just seeing a thriving black market for 'blanked' weapons/gear. You can even solder on a small slot so you can slot in a dummy RFID chips to broadcast whatever you want it to appear as for those times when you don't want to run completely dark. So you could have a Rugar Warhawk that has a slotted chip broadcasting its a Yahama Taser or something innocuous. Won't stand up to a visual inspection but for items under the jacket or bag it won't give you away either and will waste a decker's time hacking a dummy item.

Yes it means giving up wireless bonuses, but I can think a few folk who would rather just have the thing off radar entirely with no chance of remote/nanite activation
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Doc Chaos
post Jul 17 2013, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 17 2013, 03:45 PM) *
If I take Build/Repair in the appropriate skills, what is it going to take threshold wise to completely disable/remove the wifi capacity in these weapons?

Am just seeing a thriving black market for 'blanked' weapons/gear. You can even solder on a small slot so you can slot in a dummy RFID chips to broadcast whatever you want it to appear as for those times when you don't want to run completely dark. So you could have a Rugar Warhawk that has a slotted chip broadcasting its a Yahama Taser or something innocuous. Won't stand up to a visual inspection but for items under the jacket or bag it won't give you away either and will waste a decker's time hacking a dummy item.

Yes it means giving up wireless bonuses, but I can think a few folk who would rather just have the thing off radar entirely with no chance of remote/nanite activation


The Ruger Super Warhawk doesn't have a WiFi option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As far as I see it you don't need to remove the WiFi option. If WiFi is off, the only one who can activate it again is you (I am assuming that turning the WiFi bonus off completely turns off WiFi on the device, meaning you have to push a button to start up WiFi on the device again). Nice touch and idea with the chip, though, very cool food for thought.
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Sendaz
post Jul 17 2013, 02:18 PM
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Yes, meant to say Predator (with smartgun system)

Running dark with wifi off is simplest of course, but there are nanites that can turn 'on' your wireless and a few sneaky ways wifi could be reactivated so was looking at total removal.

This option would not be for everyone, but for some really paranoid sorts I can see them paying for this and the customer is always right (so long as they can pay the bill) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Aaron
post Jul 17 2013, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (DoomFrog @ Jul 17 2013, 02:11 AM) *
See that feels extremely wrong.

If the look for icons is that minor, why does it take an illegal program to override the matrix protocols to change the icons look.

That's a fair question. The answer is that the look of icons isn't actually all that minor. In SR4, when anything was allowed to look like anything, you had to make a Matrix Perception Test every time you encountered a new icon, just to figure out whether you were looking at a tiny text file or a gigantic social node. We added the "sumptuary laws" to make game play smoother, and in the bargain we got a little something extra that sets hackers apart from normal users in the Wrapper program.

As far as in-universe reasoning goes, the answer is simple. GOD is imposing a draconian version of the W3C standards. Think of it as a distopian dress code (”no hats, no spaghetti straps, pants and skirts must fall below the knee, children”).
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saiyanslayer
post Jul 17 2013, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Jul 17 2013, 10:12 AM) *
The Ruger Super Warhawk doesn't have a WiFi option. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As far as I see it you don't need to remove the WiFi option. If WiFi is off, the only one who can activate it again is you (I am assuming that turning the WiFi bonus off completely turns off WiFi on the device, meaning you have to push a button to start up WiFi on the device again). Nice touch and idea with the chip, though, very cool food for thought.


pg 424 "Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital ammunition counter... All firearms have the following wireless bonuses on each model:"

Looks like the Ruger does come with wireless straight out of the box.
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quentra
post Jul 17 2013, 02:33 PM
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Actually, in one of the examples they state that the Super Warhawk's icon is a tomahawk.
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