Non-decker Matrix Defense, Using stealth RFIDs as decoys Options

[Doc Chaos]

pg 424 "Firearms come with wireless capability and a digital ammunition counter... All firearms have the following wireless bonuses on each model:"

Looks like the Ruger does come with wireless straight out of the box.

Wow, I totally missed that. Thanks.

[saiyanslayer]

If you find the flaw, please let me know. I also agree that this is a very sleazy way of winning against deckers, but according to RAW it works.

The only question I have about it is what action is it to identify icons. The rules say that a Matrix Perception is a Complex action, which includes both scanning for a device running silent and spotting it. But assuming I have found multiple hidden devices, how many can I identify within one IP (either the first time round or one my second IP).

I think I found way around this, so bare with me:

Matrix Action "Hide" (pg. 240) states you cannot hide from an icon that has a mark on you.

If I understand Marks correctly, you could mark the master and the slave would get a mark as well. If true, then you should see all slaved devices on that master.

EDIT:

Also, Matrix Perception notes that if you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot it. Would running Smartgun software be considered a feature?

[quentra]

I think I found way around this, so bare with me:

Matrix Action "Hide" (pg. 240) states you cannot hide from an icon that has a mark on you.

If I understand Marks correctly, you could mark the master and the slave would get a mark as well. If true, then you should see all slaved devices on that master.

EDIT:

Also, Matrix Perception notes that if you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot it. Would running Smartgun software be considered a feature?

Who knows? It's not written anywhere!

[Aaron]

If I understand Marks correctly, you could mark the master and the slave would get a mark as well. If true, then you should see all slaved devices on that master.

I think it's the other way around. If you getamarkonthe slave, you also get a mark on the master.

EDIT:

Also, Matrix Perception notes that if you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot it. Would running Smartgun software be considered a feature?

I'd say yes, but that would make it a guessing game among al hidden smartguns within 100 meters. Your GM might have a different opinion, though.

[Razhul]

@Aaron: Can you potentially define what is meant by "feature" in the Matrix Perception table on p.235? I am growing concerned that running with 50 RFIDs and a Wrapper program negates Decking quite a lot.

If my group finds a group of enemies that has their equipment run silent and also has 100+ silent RFIDs in their pockets, what's the point for me to even try at that point?

And, on the contrary, if I bring 50 Wrapped RFIDs with me, all running silent and just run Attack actions (as described on p.236) whether I fail or not, the target does not automatically spot me. It has to run Matrix Perceptions to find me which gets almost impossible as it runs into 50+ silent icons to choose from. Isn't that also broken?

[Aaron]

@Aaron: Can you potentially define what is meant by "feature" in the Matrix Perception table on p.235? I am growing concerned that running with 50 RFIDs and a Wrapper program negates Decking quite a lot.

I can tell you what the author (me¹) intended as the definition of the term feature: an important or main item. So if your target has an Ingram Smartgun and fifty shades of stealth RFIDs, all in hidden mode, you can narrow your search to "that Ingram Smartgun right there" and you don't have to worry about the tags. Of course, if there are other hidden Ingram Smartguns in the vicinity, your GM is quite justified, I think, in making you select from them at random.

Hope that helps.

¹Just because I wrote the chapter doesn't make me the Grand Arbiter of the Matrix Rules; there are only a couple-three people who get to make word-is-law pronouncements about the official Shadowrun rules, and I'm not one of 'em. That's especially true at your table, so check with your GM.

[X-Kalibur]

That seems fair enough to me, Aaron. I would think it safer for a Sam who wants to run at full capacity might find himself a bit safer slaving to a high device rating commlink and throwing IC in it. Although I've only given the matrix chapter a glance so far.

[Razhul]

That seems fair enough to me, Aaron. I would think it safer for a Sam who wants to run at full capacity might find himself a bit safer slaving to a high device rating commlink and throwing IC in it. Although I've only given the matrix chapter a glance so far.

IC can only run on hosts in SR5.

[Draco18s]

I'm going to put smartgun systems on my stealth FRID tags.

Because I can.

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[BlackJaw]

It's actually a lot easier to run the Wrapper cyberprogram then you'd think. Cyberdecks aren't the only device that can run it. You can also use an RCC (Rigger Control Console), the cheapest of which "Scratch Built-Junk" is only $1600 and can run a single cyberprogram. While a Control Rig is needed to be a rigger, as it is required to jump into a drone, no such restriction is required to own and operate an RCC. As noted on page 269, RCCs can use the Wrapper program, although it's a riggers variant version so no borrowing the decker's copy. That's an outlay of $1,825 to be able to change the icon on any device you own. Of course the RCC is about the size of a briefcase instead of a large phone, so it has a downside.

Also note that the Matrix Perception list on page 235 lists "if it is using a non-standard (or even illegal) look." Which means if you are running Wrapper and have successfully taken the Change Icon action on an RFID, you can make it look like gun, and unless the Decker spends one of hits from a perception check on verifying Icon, they will likely fall for it. This is especially likely if they didn't need to make the Perception roll to see the icon, say because it's within 100 meters?

The plan: Buy some standard RFID tags and attach them to your gear. Change those RFID Icons to look like the gear they are attached to: The Tomahawk icon on your Rugger Warhawk, etc. Run your actual gear in silent mode. Should you run into an enemy decker or security spider, they will most likely target the obvious Icon which they can automatically see if within 100 meters, rather than spending a complex action to make a Matrix Perception check on it see if it's actually the legal Icon for the device, or to try and spot stealth devices, which they can do if they can see the device. When a Street Sam is firing a gun at you, and you target the weapon icon floating in matrix space near his gun, not check to see if his gun icon is a cunning decoy.

Of course once they gain access to the icon, or just brick the RFID, they may realize something is going on, but hopefully you've shot him by then with the gun he thought he hacked.

[Draco18s]

[cheese]

BRILLIANT

[Epicedion]

Having thought about this some more, it appears that it would just be a huge liability and get you caught and located really easily on a run.

The local security decker would probably be doing regular scans for hidden icons, and Stealth Tags only get 6 dice to resist identification and tracing. So if you're carrying around a bag of tags, odds are the decker would notice the spike in hidden targets, then easily identify and trace at least one of the tags, and send a security squad to intercept.

Since you can't slave all those chips to the decker, you won't be able to take advantage of a "stealth mode" decker running Sneak and Stealth (and with a good deck, that's worth 8 Sleaze and +2 versus Trace) for Logic +10, so conceivably 16 or 18 dice once you consider bioware, etc.

So basically you can hide like crazy with ~16 dice protecting your location, or you can carry a bucket of RFID tags with 6 dice and get spotted and traced quickly. And the worst part about the tags is that without a connection to one, you won't know if anyone's attempting to spot or mark you, or if they've succeeded.

[Sendaz]

But for a diversion, since Change Icon is a Data Processing job, could you attach the RFID tag 'blanks' along with a cheap commlink to a rat or similiar, set it to change the chips icons and maintain the illusion to include a smartgun, maybe a cyberlimb and a few bits and bobs that would make someone think it was a regular runner. Maybe not best on the run itself, but for having to make a getaway releasing these behind you to scatter the trail so to speak....

[Razhul]

But for a diversion, since Change Icon is a Data Processing job, could you attach the RFID tag 'blanks' along with a cheap commlink to a rat or similiar, set it to change the chips icons and maintain the illusion to include a smartgun, maybe a cyberlimb and a few bits and bobs that would make someone think it was a regular runner. Maybe not best on the run itself, but for having to make a getaway releasing these behind you to scatter the trail so to speak....

Seems sensible to me. You'd see bundles of icons running away in all directions.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, meant to say Predator (with smartgun system)

Running dark with wifi off is simplest of course, but there are nanites that can turn 'on' your wireless and a few sneaky ways wifi could be reactivated so was looking at total removal.

This option would not be for everyone, but for some really paranoid sorts I can see them paying for this and the customer is always right (so long as they can pay the bill) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No Nanites in SR5 Currently. Maybe later.

[Sendaz]

No Nanites in SR5 Currently. Maybe later.

Yes, but that is just because of the long gaming tradition of reprinting all the stuff again in a new edition for more sales. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


They will be coming and best to start planning countermeasures now because nuyen to donuts it will be retconned to have been around ages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Trillinon]

My solution would be to just not allow stealth RFIDs. An RFID tag is a passive device. If you want something that can run software, and thus have a sleaze rating, you're talking a form of miniature specialized cyberdeck, which should have an appropriate cost.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but that is just because of the long gaming tradition of reprinting all the stuff again in a new edition for more sales. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


They will be coming and best to start planning countermeasures now because nuyen to donuts it will be retconned to have been around ages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Of course... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Abstruse]

I spend all day at work bandying with Jason about this on his ENWorld post. Every solution he came up with is something that was either covered on this post or I'd already shot down.

I will, however, remind everyone once again of Rule Zero: The GM is ALWAYS right. You try to pull that crap in my game more than once, expect OBB. I'm not the guy that's going to send a combat decker to take out your cyber/gun every single combat, but I damn well will become the guy who points out "You didn't notice that glancing wound from the security guard did you? Blood makes a great ritual sample. Roll Logic + Willpower to resist the overwhelming urge to mow down all your teammates then eat the barrel of your Ares Alpha yourself."

[BlackJaw]

But for a diversion, since Change Icon is a Data Processing job, could you attach the RFID tag 'blanks' along with a cheap commlink to a rat or similiar, set it to change the chips icons and maintain the illusion to include a smartgun, maybe a cyberlimb and a few bits and bobs that would make someone think it was a regular runner. Maybe not best on the run itself, but for having to make a getaway releasing these behind you to scatter the trail so to speak....

A Commlink can't run the Wrapper cyberprogram, or any other cyberprogram, so it can't be used change an icon in such a way as to disguise what it is. An RFID tag can't look like a smartlink without the wrapper program.

Also, I don't think a commlink can change icons on its own. I think you need an Agent for that, and again, you can't run an agent on a commlink.

You could probably do this with a drone, with the pilot program doing the matrix actions via the Wrapper program. Drones have the ability to run Cyberprograms, and are themselves an icon, so it could run around altering it's own icon to look like all sorts of dangerous things as a distraction. An S-B Microskimmer would work well, but it's $1000 plus the $250 Wrapper cyberprogram for each.

[X-Kalibur]

I will, however, remind everyone once again of Rule Zero: The GM is ALWAYS right. You try to pull that crap in my game more than once, expect OBB. I'm not the guy that's going to send a combat decker to take out your cyber/gun every single combat, but I damn well will become the guy who points out "You didn't notice that glancing wound from the security guard did you? Blood makes a great ritual sample. Roll Logic + Willpower to resist the overwhelming urge to mow down all your teammates then eat the barrel of your Ares Alpha yourself."

Which really just means you understand the magic rules better than the matrix ones. That's not actually intended as a slight, as the matrix rules tend be quite muddy.

[Abstruse]

Which really just means you understand the magic rules better than the matrix ones. That's not actually intended as a slight, as the matrix rules tend be quite muddy.

No, I actually understand the Matrix rules far better than the Magic rules. That goes back to post-VR2.0 for me. What it really means is that if you, as a player, pull that kind of crap on me, it means that you're taking a Player vs GM attitude. You're not giving me the benefit of the doubt as the GM that I will challenge you without said challenge being unfair. I've been gaming for over 20 years at this point and I've never TPK'd a group once. But if you start pulling this sort of cheesy defense, I WILL start pulling the same cheesy crap and throwing it right back at you and I'll blindside you from an aspect of the rules you're not aware of.

Or I'll just drop a cow on your head. OBB = Orbital Bovine Bombardment, and was the Shadowrun standard of what has become the TVTropes meme "Rocks fall, everyone dies".

[GiraffeShaman]

I think it's important that if in essence there is a way to drop chaff and confuse deckers, that the chaff at least be somewhat expensive. (Like 1,000 nuyen drones) I mean, congrats if you managed to break the system, but we've waited 20 years for some Matrix rules that actually work. I'd rather not start my 5th edition SR campaign with the rules broken in this manner.

Also, is it meant for non riggers to get RCC decks and gain access to programs? I thought part of the purpose of all this is to limit most characters to commlinks and thus only common programs.

[Abstruse]

I think it's important that if in essence there is a way to drop chaff and confuse deckers, that the chaff at least be somewhat expensive. (Like 1,000 nuyen drones) I mean, congrats if you managed to break the system, but we've waited 20 years for some Matrix rules that actually work. I'd rather not start my 5th edition SR campaign with the rules broken in this manner.

Also, is it meant for non riggers to get RCC decks and gain access to programs? I thought part of the purpose of all this is to limit most characters to commlinks and thus only common programs.

Again, my current anti-rules-lawyer-justification-for-Rule-Zeroing-this-tactic is "The enemy decker will immediately identify the identical hidden icons as being the same type and thus immediately tag all RFIDs you have on you with the same owner." Which means this trick only works once. The second a decker gets one RFID, he gets them all. And on top of that, any GOD security that may be watching will take special interest in someone walking around with four dozen plus hidden icons on their person (Sleaze is an illegal action BTW, which was argued by Jason Hardy as a way around this tactic by giving the sam in question an Overwatch Score...). It's not RAW, but it's a nasty tactic you can pull on this sort of munchkiny cheese.

For the record, I bolded the most important part of this, only I've personally been waiting 22 years for it.

[DWC]

Stealth tags are Restricted not Forbidden, so having something with a Sleaze program isn't inherently illegal. Or was that a typo for the errata thread?