Aspected Mages..., ...really look crappy Options

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I'm not sure why someone would ever make an Aspected Mage. They look, frankly, terrible. In SR 3 I recall several very memorable characters built around being Aspected Magicians. In SR 5, I can't imagine sacrificing the opportunity to be a Full Mage or a Mystic Adept to make an Aspected Mage.

What the hell happened to them, and how can it be fixed?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

Some of the aspects of the Aspected have not really changed(no pun intended), you had only access to one aspect like Sorcery or Conjuring so you could be a Sorcerer or a Conjurer.

The Shamanist and Elementalist allowed you to tightly conjure /cast within the scope of your aspect, but these two have sort of been absorbed by the concepts of the Traditions.

That said, maybe they should be allowed back as an Aspect potential. However it would take a bit of rewriting as the elemental to spell type has changed by tradition and the mentor spirits generally do not give bonuses specific to a certain spirit like the old days. Plus would you want to be that constrained? I mean in 3rd Ed Bear gave bonus to health spell and summoning forest spirits. A shamanist could only cast health spells and trying to find forest spirits in some parts of the city pretty much was impossible, unless you allow them to just summon them from anywhere so long as it was a forest type spirit that turned up.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Some of the aspects of the Aspected have not really changed(no pun intended), you had only access to one aspect like Sorcery or Conjuring so you could be a Sorcerer or a Conjurer.

The Shamanist and Elementalist allowed you to tightly conjure /cast within the scope of your aspect, but these two have sort of been absorbed by the concepts of the Traditions.

That said, maybe they should be allowed back as an Aspect potential. However it would take a bit of rewriting as the elemental to spell type has changed by tradition and the mentor spirits generally do not give bonuses specific to a certain spirit like the old days. Plus would you want to be that constrained? I mean in 3rd Ed Bear gave bonus to health spell and summoning forest spirits. A shamanist could only cast health spells and trying to find forest spirits in some parts of the city pretty much was impossible, unless you allow them to just summon them from anywhere so long as it was a forest type spirit that turned up.

The Shamanist and Elementalist options were two things that immediately came to mind, yeah. I always felt like they added some nice flavour. And reintroducing them doesn't seem like it would be too difficult. Elementalists would be straight forward to implement like SR 3 --> Fire: Combat, Air: Detection, Water: Illusion, Earth: Manipulation. Spirits tied to that element.

The Shamanist might require a little more finesse, mapping the Spirit/Spell bonus into the condensed spirit list available.

But yes, in that example, the difficulty in finding a forest is just part of the drawback of going that route.

IIRC, you got a ton of spells as an Aspected Magician as well, while full magicians started with much, much fewer.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

Let's revise the Elementalist as that may be easier of the two:

Aspected Mage has to choose his Element, let's stick to the basic four: Air, Earth, Fire & Water. Of these let's take fire for convenience.

Normally each element was assigned a spell category, but then that meant if you wanted any sort of attack spell it was either fire (combat) or earth (manipulation).

Let's tweak this a bit, The elements still have a main category: Fire (Combat), Air (Detection), Water (Illusion), Earth (Manipulation). No healing spells for the Elementalist at this time.
To add a bit to the spells, let's allow the elementalist to cast spells that include their elemental effect , including combat/manipulation spells with the appropriate elemental effect.

So while Fire has full access to all the combat spells, the other elements can have an Indirect Elemental Touch, Bolt and Ball spell that coincides with their element.

Fire gains from this exchange as it can access the Fire Manipulation spells.

Summoning is still limited to their Element as usual.

For the elements/types we can treat water as opposed to fire and earth opposed to air and vice versa for both.

The Elementalist could still counterspell and banish, but only at full effect against their own element and its associated magic. For the other elements/types it is a -1 dice except for its opposed element/type which incurs a -2 dice.

So a Fire Elementalist can use full dice to counterspell/dispel any non elemental based combat spell or elemental fire based spell as well as banish Fire elementals as normal. Against Air & Earth spells, detection & non-fire manipulations he would suffer a -1 penalty and against Water type spells and Illusions he tried to counter/dispel or trying to banish a water elemental this increases to -2 dice.

I am not sure if the penalty to the dice for other elements should not be even higher, but this can be debated either way.

As to spells, Mages got 25 spell points while Aspected got 35, but then you had to pay Force back then.

[Shemhazai]

Almost everything that can make a full magician better depends on Karma. Why not take the better priority slot right off the bat and get a magical skill group instead of two magical skills? An elf aspected conjurer shaman with exceptional attribute charisma could have charisma of 9, bind 9 spirits at any given time, use spirit focuses, weapon focuses, and be able to do other stuff while still getting better at conjuring. Not needing to sling spells would free up combat actions for using leadership. This character could have lots of contacts, serve as a decent face, I think, as well as have skill slots available for things like being a medic or doing legwork. Sounds fun to me. Any detriments that aren't so obvious?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Let's revise the Elementalist as that may be easier of the two:

Aspected Mage has to choose his Element, let's stick to the basic four: Air, Earth, Fire & Water. Of these let's take fire for convenience.

Normally each element was assigned a spell category, but then that meant if you wanted any sort of attack spell it was either fire (combat) or earth (manipulation).

Let's tweak this a bit, The elements still have a main category: Fire (Combat), Air (Detection), Water (Illusion), Earth (Manipulation). No healing spells for the Elementalist at this time.
To add a bit to the spells, let's allow the elementalist to cast spells that include their elemental effect , including combat/manipulation spells with the appropriate elemental effect.

So while Fire has full access to all the combat spells, the other elements can have an Indirect Elemental Touch, Bolt and Ball spell that coincides with their element.

Fire gains from this exchange as it can access the Fire Manipulation spells.

Summoning is still limited to their Element as usual.

For the elements/types we can treat water as opposed to fire and earth opposed to air and vice versa for both.

The Elementalist could still counterspell and banish, but only at full effect against their own element and its associated magic. For the other elements/types it is a -1 dice except for its opposed element/type which incurs a -2 dice.

So a Fire Elementalist can use full dice to counterspell/dispel any combat spell or elemental fire based spell as well as banish Fire elementals as normal. Against Air & Earth spells, detection & non-fire manipulations he would suffer a -1 penalty and against Water type spells and Illusions he tried to counter/dispel or trying to banish a water elemental this increases to -2 dice.

I like it. I think formalizing this into new Aspected Character Options is in order. Additionally, I think Aspected Mages should probably start w/ a Mentor Spirit for free which does not count against any limits on number of qualities/karma spend on qualities during Chargen.

In the case of Elemenalists, that Mentor Spirit will essentially just be their Element, and can provide a flat +2 bonus dice toward their proficiency.

Almost everything that can make a full magician better depends on Karma. Why not take the better priority slot right off the bat and get a magical skill group instead of two magical skills? An elf aspected conjurer shaman with exceptional attribute charisma could have charisma of 9, bind 9 spirits at any given time, use spirit focuses, weapon focuses, and be able to do other stuff while still getting better at conjuring. Not needing to sling spells would free up combat actions for using leadership. This character could have lots of contacts, serve as a decent face, I think, as well as have skill slots available for things like being a medic or doing legwork. Sounds fun to me. Any detriments that aren't so obvious?

I think that sounds like a valid character concept. I'm just wondering why you wouldn't want to go Full Magician, so you can augment your Face prowess w/ Manipulation spells?

It just seems like the priority-related benefits are so dwarfed compared to the massive benefits of being a full Magician.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[DoomFrog]

Almost everything that can make a full magician better depends on Karma. Why not take the better priority slot right off the bat and get a magical skill group instead of two magical skills? An elf aspected conjurer shaman with exceptional attribute charisma could have charisma of 9, bind 9 spirits at any given time, use spirit focuses, weapon focuses, and be able to do other stuff while still getting better at conjuring. Not needing to sling spells would free up combat actions for using leadership. This character could have lots of contacts, serve as a decent face, I think, as well as have skill slots available for things like being a medic or doing legwork. Sounds fun to me. Any detriments that aren't so obvious?

In the B priority of magic, the aspected magician has 5 magic and a 4 skill group. The magician has a 4 magic, 2 skills at 4, and 7 spells. The difference between a two skills and a skill group is one skill. So:

7 spells at 5 karma is 35 karma
4 to 5 in magic is 15 karma and a 4 skill is 20 karma. 35 karma.

So in the B priority choosing to be aspected over a full magician means no "karma" bonus and the loss of astral projection and not being able to use 2 magical skill groups (even if you never played on using them).

Lets look at the C priority. Aspected magician has a 3 magic and a skill group at 2. Magician has 3 magic and 5 spells.

5 spells at 5 karma is 25 karma.
A 2 skill group is 15 karma.

So in the C priority Aspected magician is down 10 karma, plus you lose the 2 magical skill groups and can't astrally project.

There is no benefit to being an aspected magician.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

There is no benefit to being an aspected magician.

That's my conclusion as well.

In years long gone, when you built an Aspected Mage you could at least be assured of being a specialist in your area of focus with a higher inventory of spells.

The general Awakened Hierarchy appears to be: (Full Magician / Mystic Adept) > Adept > Aspected Magician.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

Even in the old days though, Aspected was just a way to squeeze out a mage with a lower priority. Remember in 3rd it used to be full mage was A priority with adept/aspected tieing in at B.

Now with full mage/mystic adept available at Prio C you just don't have the same sort of draw to the Aspected because there is not much to offer. Short of rejuggling the priorites you probably never will be as appealing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

II think that sounds like a valid character concept. I'm just wondering why you wouldn't want to go Full Magician, so you can augment your Face prowess w/ Manipulation spells?

It just seems like the priority-related benefits are so dwarfed compared to the massive benefits of being a full Magician.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Because sometimes (Most times for me) it is not about the most optimal option, but the more flavorful one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Because sometimes (Most times for me) it is not about the most optimal option, but the more flavorful one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But you're a rare breed, my friend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Even in the old days though, Aspected was just a way to squeeze out a mage with a lower priority. Remember in 3rd it used to be full mage was A priority with adept/aspected tieing in at B.

Now with full mage/mystic adept available at Prio C you just don't have the same sort of draw to the Aspected because there is not much to offer. Short of rejuggling the priorites you probably never will be as appealing.

Solid observation. I think you hit the nail on the head. The issue is the low cost of becoming Awakened. I wonder if this wouldn't be as bad if you couldn't subsequently raise your Magic attribute with special attribute points.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[phlapjack77]

Because sometimes (Most times for me) it is not about the most optimal option, but the more flavorful one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're doing it again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're admitting there's a problem with the rules, then you go on to say "but it doesn't matter because I ignore the problem."

Since everyone agrees there's actually a problem with the Aspected Mage rules (the problem was in SR4 too), how about giving ideas about fixing it?

As another suggestion, I think some alternate Aspected rules written by (Frank? AH?) mentioned giving the aspected mage a starting init grade of 1. I like this idea (along with the suggestions above), it says (to me) that the aspected mage, while not as "broad" as a normal mage, is much more powerful in his focused area.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

As another suggestion, I think some alternate Aspected rules written by (Frank? AH?) mentioned giving the aspected mage a starting init grade of 1. I like this idea (along with the suggestions above), it says (to me) that the aspected mage, while not as "broad" as a normal mage, is much more powerful in his focused area.

Mmmm! Interesting, that's a pretty good idea!

Good stuff, phlapjack77.

I think you're right about finding ways to give Aspected Mages dominance in their focused area.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Korwin]

As another suggestion, I think some alternate Aspected rules written by (Frank? AH?) mentioned giving the aspected mage a starting init grade of 1. I like this idea (along with the suggestions above), it says (to me) that the aspected mage, while not as "broad" as a normal mage, is much more powerful in his focused area.

It was Frank.
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836

Unrelated House Rules

Aspected Magician: Aspected Magician is a positive quality. Being an Aspected Magician costs 5 or 10 BP, and such characters begin play as a level 1 Initiate, having one metamagic and an enhanced Magic attribute cap. An Aspected Magician is a Magician except as noted below:

• Aspected Conjurers Cannot learn Sorcery skills, cast spells, or provid Counterspelling. They can astrally perceive but cannot astrally project. They can can use other magic skills (most notably conjuring skills). This quality costs 10 points.
• Aspected Sorcerers Cannot learn Conjuring skills, summon spirits, or Banish. They can astrally perceive but cannot astrally project. They can can use other magic skills (most notably Sorcery skills). This quality costs 10 points.
• Path Aspect Must choose 2 categories of Magic and the associated spirits according to their tradition. The character may only cast spells or summon spirits of those two categories/types. They may still use Banishing and Counterspelling against any target. They may still conjure Watchers and Allies. They can astrally perceive but cannot astrally project. This quality costs 10 points.
• Astral Aspect Cannot cast any spells on Physical Targets, nor can they conjure any spirit that has Possession or Materialization (Watchers are still OK). They can still cast Mana spells on Astral Targets. The threshold for their Assensing tests is reduced by 1. This quality costs 5 points.

Sample Tradition: The Miroku Ninja Clan

[ Spoiler ]
The Miroku Ninjas are very physically oriented magicians who interact with spirits which they regard as demons of strong desires called “Shikima.” Most Miroku are physical mages or aspected mages, with Path Aspects being very common. The Shikima come from their own metaplane, a terrible world filled with fighting, lust, and other powerful emotions.
Most Miroku follow mentors that favor Health spells, and the most common Aspect allows Health and Manipulation spells. They are a materialization tradition.
[list] Beast Manipulation
Man Health
Guardian Detection
Plant Combat
Guidance Illusion

[Makki]

Giving Aspected Magicians an Initiate grade is one possible fix.
Or just set the priorities right.

A: no Aspected Magician
B: Aspected Magician Magic 6, R4 skill group
C: Magic 4, R3 skill group
D: Magic 3, R1 skill group

[phlapjack77]

It was Frank.
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48836

Thanks for the assist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was getting this mixed up in my head with AH's "Notes Towards the Advanced Magic Book".

[Korwin]

Thanks for the assist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was getting this mixed up in my head with AH's "Notes Towards the Advanced Magic Book".

Well, I dont know that one. Link?

[phlapjack77]

A treasure trove awaits...

[Korwin]

Thanks!

[Sendaz]

A treasure trove awaits...

awesome, definitely some good ideas there to build on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're doing it again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're admitting there's a problem with the rules, then you go on to say "but it doesn't matter because I ignore the problem."

I am doing it again... Hard to resist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
However, it is not a "Problem" unless you have people at the table who insist on MAKING it a problem. Otherwise, the issue never even comes up at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

I'll let you guys know how Sophie, a character in one of my stories that I hope to have see the light of day sometime soon, comes out when I do her stats. She's a conjurer; there's just a couple of things I have to figure out how to do for her particular concept, but that should be easy enough.

I don't see a big issue with how aspected mages are handled, myself, but it might just be me.

[Makki]

I don't see a big issue with how aspected mages are handled, myself, but it might just be me.

there's no handling issue or rules problem. There's just chargen discremination towards Aspected. It is cheaper to be a full mage and not take any sorcery skills than being a conuirer aspect magician.

[Sendaz]

I'll let you guys know how Sophie, a character in one of my stories that I hope to have see the light of day sometime soon, comes out when I do her stats. She's a conjurer; there's just a couple of things I have to figure out how to do for her particular concept, but that should be easy enough.

I am trying to put to paper a story idea of a voodoo tradition mage who channels ALOT, and as part of the payment for their services he turns over control to them during part of the down time between runs, the Baron(Ghede) not surprisingly likes clubbing. It's almost multiple personality as it can get crowded inside his head sometimes. Some parts will be in the run, but want to explore the relationship he and his loa have with this both on the run and in the offtime. I admit I loved how Michael Stackpole's Wolf would banter with the Old Wolf and want to recreate something similar.

As to the Aspected they can be fun flavours, but for many players they just see the numbers and do not see the reason to bother. To each their own tastes.

A fun book to read where most mages would be considered Aspected mages would be 'Another Day, another dungeon'. A fun if quirky read and for the elementalist a great source of ideas.

[Mäx]

I don't see a big issue with how aspected mages are handled, myself, but it might just be me.

They lose a lot with out getting much at all for it, making them a trap option.