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> Is Automatics the odd skill out?, Single Shot supremacy?
Samoth
post Jul 18 2013, 12:52 PM
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Due to the new recoil rules and the burst fire nerfing, is there any question that Single Shot-capable weapons are a "better" choice? Like Semi-Auto, you can only Single Shot once per combat round and still have a non-combat simple action, but recoil is not cumulative between rounds/phases. As far as I can tell the only benefit to Automatics is full-auto suppression fire. I suppose this makes shotguns and rifles far more viable than they used to be, but reduces the effectiveness of pistols and all automatics.

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Dancer
post Jul 18 2013, 02:24 PM
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Oddly enough, a bolt action can be superior to a semi-auto even if you're doing exactly the same things with them (firing one shot per phase).
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Skynet
post Jul 18 2013, 03:21 PM
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Yep, that struck me as odd too.
Guess we'll be seeing even more Super Warhawks in SR5.

Only thing that might be an issue is the increased evasion-pool (namely RE + INT instead of just RE). Maybe burst and autofire might become important, just to keep the target from evading your shots.
(Yeah i'm looking at you MysAd with Combat Sense 6, RE 10 and INT 10 (Increased Attribute Spell) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
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Jaid
post Jul 18 2013, 04:48 PM
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yeah, being able to shut down someone's defensive dice pool is enough to make burst and full auto worth something, especially if you don't plan on shooting every single time your action comes up. for example, if you burst something, and then throw a grenade the next round (note: you'll probably actually want to keep your burst to a simple action in this specific example, due to the number of actions involved in taking a grenade from non-wireless and stowed to wireless, thrown, and detonated.
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 18 2013, 07:52 AM) *
Due to the new recoil rules and the burst fire nerfing, is there any question that Single Shot-capable weapons are a "better" choice? Like Semi-Auto, you can only Single Shot once per combat round and still have a non-combat simple action, but recoil is not cumulative between rounds/phases. As far as I can tell the only benefit to Automatics is full-auto suppression fire. I suppose this makes shotguns and rifles far more viable than they used to be, but reduces the effectiveness of pistols and all automatics.

If you fire a Semi-Auto gun in single-shot every round, there's no recoil (recoil is de-facto reset as soon as you don't shoot with a complex action).
So an SS weapon is almost never superior to an SA weapon, except is one fringe scenario: you've accumulated recoil in previous passes and you lead the current pass with a single shot simple action, instead of making it the second simple action of that pass.

The benefit of burst fire and full-auto is that recoil compensation is plenty and these firing modes remove a lot of dice from the opponent's defense pool, which can be quite large, especially if that opponent sacrifices 5 or 10 initiative.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2013, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 10:27 PM) *
If you fire a Semi-Auto gun in single-shot every round, there's no recoil (recoil is de-facto reset as soon as you don't shoot with a complex action).

Recoil keeps on accumulating until you spend a full round not shooting.
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Skynet
post Jul 18 2013, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE
Recoil accumulates with every bullet fired until the attacker
stops firing to bring the gun (or guns) back under control.
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase
and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced
into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action
Phase.


Only Single Shot gets an exception to this rule.

Or am i missing something?

QUOTE ( @ Jul 18 2013, 09:36 PM) *
Recoil keeps on accumulating until you spend a full round not shooting.

As stated above: a full phase suffices.
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Elfenlied
post Jul 18 2013, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2013, 08:36 PM) *
Recoil keeps on accumulating until you spend a full round not shooting.


Do you get to apply recoil compensation every action phase or only once per turn?
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 07:57 PM
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QUOTE (Skynet @ Jul 18 2013, 02:38 PM) *
Only Single Shot gets an exception to this rule.

Or am i missing something?


As stated above: a full phase suffices.

I've already asked, and I've already had the Word of God (as in, freelancers): what this means is that if you do something else than "shoot for a full action", then you cancel recoil. That is, if you shoot for a simple action and do something else for another simple action, then recoil is reset.

QUOTE
Do you get to apply recoil compensation every action phase or only once per turn?
Neither. You apply recoil compensation only after a recoil reset.

QUOTE
Recoil keeps on accumulating until you spend a full round not shooting.
No, that isn't what the rule says.
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Skynet
post Jul 18 2013, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 09:57 PM) *
(...)
Neither. You apply recoil compensation only after a recoil reset.
(...)


That would be really strange (and not what i have gathered from the rules). You apply your recoil-compensation every time you fire.

Otherwise it would be like: (SMG with total RC 4 as an example)
1. Phase: Long Burst on BF (6 bullets): - 2 recoil-modfier
2. Phase: next Long Burst: -12 recoil-modifier (-8 would be correct imo)
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Skynet @ Jul 18 2013, 03:07 PM) *
That would be really strange (and not what i have gathered from the rules). You apply your recoil-compensation every time you fire.

No, you don't. Look at the example p 177.

The rule says that you only get recoil compensation "when you start firing" - which in this case means when you start a series of recoil-generating actions.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2013, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Skynet @ Jul 18 2013, 10:38 PM) *
As stated above: a full phase suffices.

Did you even read what i quoted, i used "round" because that what to other poster used.

And werewindlefr the rules say quite explicitly that you have to spend full action phase doing something other then shooting.
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Liam
post Jul 18 2013, 08:17 PM
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On page 175, under the heading "Progressive Recoil", it says, "Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase." Now, as far as I understand the rules, you get one action phase per Initiative Pass. So then, you have to spend one whole pass not shooting to reset your recoil. Thus, you can't shoot with a simple action, reset your recoil with a take aim simple action, then next pass have a clean recoil slate. How are you interpreting the rules differently, Werewindlefr? Or did the freelancer you talk to clarify something I'm not getting here?
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Razhul
post Jul 18 2013, 08:20 PM
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This is quite clear in the rules, p.177
QUOTE
Wombat is plugging away at some obnoxious gangers who insulted his street name. He starts with 1 free point and has a Strength of 3, giving him 2 points of compensation. He’s using
a Colt Manhunter with 1 point of recoil compensation, which brings his compensation total to 3. On his first Action Phase he fires a Semi-Auto Burst, which is 3 bullets. That takes his compensation down to 0, meaning he has no penalty on this shot. On the next Action Phase he fires only one shot. That moves his recoil penalty down one more point, making it –1. He has to take a single die away from his dice pool before rolling his attack. He then uses his other Simple Action to Take Cover. In the following Action Phase, he uses a Simple Action to Take Aim, which removes the effects of progressive recoil and resets his recoil compensation back to its initial 3 points. (He also has the option of increasing his dice pool by 1 or increasing his applicable limit on the next shot by 1.)
On the fourth Action Phase


1) Recoil compensation only works for the first bullets.
2) Simple actions on the same turn you fire DO NOT reset recoil penalty. A full action phase spent not shooting does.

Then p.175:
QUOTE
When making multiple firearm attacks in a single Action Phase, calculate the total recoil penalty based on the bullets to be fired that round and remove it from your dice pool before splitting the pool for the multiple attacks.


Clearly, RC (recoil compensation) DOES NOT apply for every shot.

And there is more from the same page:
QUOTE
Recoil accumulates with every bullet fired until the attacker stops firing to bring the gun (or guns) back under control. Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.


Again, "every bullet fired" no matter over how many times you shot the weapon, it just keeps going up and up and up. And "for an entire Action Phase", not a simple action.
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Skynet
post Jul 18 2013, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 10:11 PM) *
No, you don't. Look at the example p 177.

The rule says that you only get recoil compensation "when you start firing" - which in this case means when you start a series of recoil-generating actions.



QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2013, 10:15 PM) *
Did you even read what i quoted, i used "round" because that what to other poster used.

And werewindlefr the rules say quite explicitly that you have to spend full action phase doing something other then shooting.


Just re-read the p.177-example.

-Wombat has RC3
-he shoots a semi-auto-burst (no recoil)
-then shoots a single shot (-1 recoil or in other words RC 3 minus 4 bullets) and takes cover in the same phase
-next phase he takes an aim-action (resetting the recoild) and shoots another SA-burst for zero total recoil

So:
-RC is applied for every shooting-action
-a non-shooting action resets recoil (why wasn't it mentioned on the 'take cover'-action though?)
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Samoth
post Jul 18 2013, 08:22 PM
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The question is really, "why would they do this"? If it was to balance SS weapons, they actually made them superior in nearly every way. Now everyone will be running around with a Warhawk/T-250/Remington 950. If balance was really needed they could have simply removed SS altogether and folded these weapons into SA, logical or not, instead of taking the exact opposite stance and devaluing 90% of the guns in the book.
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE
2) Simple actions on the same turn you fire DO NOT reset recoil penalty. A full action phase spent not shooting does.
This is wrong, according to the freelancers who made the rules, sorry. I thought exactly like you, but I have official word that I was wrong (and as a consequence, so are you). Simple actions DO reset recoil.

The discussion that clarified this is somewhere on the forum and a couple weeks old.
QUOTE
And werewindlefr the rules say quite explicitly that you have to spend full action phase doing something other then shooting.
This is, according to some people who participated in creating these rules in the first place, a wrong interpretation of this sentence.

QUOTE
-RC is applied for every shooting-action
It is not, or Wombat wouldn't get a -1 on his second action phase. Also, see the next example.
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Skynet
post Jul 18 2013, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Razhul @ Jul 18 2013, 10:20 PM) *
This is quite clear in the rules, p.177


1) Recoil compensation only works for the first bullets.
2) Simple actions on the same turn you fire DO NOT reset recoil penalty. A full action phase spent not shooting does.

Then p.175:


Clearly, RC (recoil compensation) DOES NOT apply for every shot.

And there is more from the same page:


Again, "every bullet fired" no matter over how many times you shot the weapon, it just keeps going up and up and up. And "for an entire Action Phase", not a simple action.


If recoil compensation only resets when recoil resets: why didn't Wombat get a -4 recoil-modifier for his single shot in the second phase?
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Sendaz
post Jul 18 2013, 08:37 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 04:24 PM) *
This is wrong, according to the freelancers who made the rules, sorry. I thought exactly like you, but I have official word that I was wrong (and as a consequence, so are you). Simple actions DO reset recoil.

Okay, but if you have two simple actions and you shoot on one action, are you saying the other action can be used to reset the recoil... sort of like call it a Steady the Weapon Simple action for convenience sake or just passing on the simple action will reset?
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 18 2013, 03:37 PM) *
Okay, but if you have two simple actions and you shoot on one action, are you saying the other action can be used to reset the recoil... sort of like call it a Steady the Weapon Simple action for convenience sake or just passing on the simple action will reset?

Using aim, reckless casting, etc. count as recoil-resetting action.
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DWC
post Jul 18 2013, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 18 2013, 04:37 PM) *
Okay, but if you have two simple actions and you shoot on one action, are you saying the other action can be used to reset the recoil... sort of like call it a Steady the Weapon Simple action for convenience sake or just passing on the simple action will reset?


That directly contradicts what the rules say, and also makes the entire progressive recoil concept essentially useless unless you're spending Complex Actions to fire Full Auto or Long Bursts. It also makes the SS weapon recoil exemption entirely pointless. I can't imagine they went to the trouble of describing all of this only to have it only apply in 2 specific corner cases. If the Errata comes out and says "ignore all that crap we wrote about how recoil works, this is what we actually meant", then great. That hasn't happened yet.
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 18 2013, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (DWC @ Jul 18 2013, 03:48 PM) *
That directly contradicts what the rules say

No, it doesn't.

QUOTE
and also makes the entire progressive recoil concept essentially useless unless you're spending Complex Actions to fire Full Auto or Long Bursts. It also makes the SS weapon recoil exemption entirely pointless. I can't imagine they went to the trouble of describing all of this only to have it only apply in 2 specific corner cases.

That's correct, I agree with you. But : http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1236986
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1237740
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Sendaz
post Jul 18 2013, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 03:44 PM) *
Using aim, reckless casting, etc. count as recoil-resetting action.

Okay, though this does seem weird since it means that really only using complex actions will really build Recoil.

Or are there specific Simple Actions that will NOT act as recoil resetting according to the testers you spoke with?
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Liam
post Jul 18 2013, 08:52 PM
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In that same example on page 177, it says in the last sentence on the Burst Fire example "The accumulated recoil is starting to stack up, so he may want to think about not attacking in the next Action Phase." Thus leading me to think that you have to not fire for an entire action phase to reset your recoil, not just do a simple action. Or else there would be no point to cumulative recoil. Everyone would just take aim, then shoot, then take aim, then shoot. Every action phase and as long as they don't fire more bullets than they have recoil comp, they'd never take recoil penalties.
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DWC
post Jul 18 2013, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (Werewindlefr @ Jul 18 2013, 04:44 PM) *
Using aim, reckless casting, etc. count as recoil-resetting action.


There are no "recoil resetting actions". There is only "did I generate more recoil this Action Phase?", with the answer being "yes" or "no". If the answer is "yes", more recoil accumulates. If the answer is "no", you get reset. While the example is clumsily worded, it does agree with the text of the rules.

Check out the example. In the first action phase, he shoots and accumulates recoil. In the second he shoots and accumulates recoil. In the third, he doesn't shoot so his recoil resets. In the fourth, he shoots and gets a fresh set of recoil.
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