Is Automatics the odd skill out?, Single Shot supremacy? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If they're reintroducing the arquebus, then it's more like 10 turns.

During the Civil War, Competent Shooters could fire 3-4 times a minute... That is really, really fast for a Muzzle Loader.
I think that some reality show proved that it could be done, too, but sadly I do not know which one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Werewindlefr]

During the Civil War, Competent Shooters could fire 3-4 times a minute... That is really, really fast for a Muzzle Loader.
I think that some reality show proved that it could be done, too, but sadly I do not know which one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Civil war weapons were much better than the arquebus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .
Actually, the cartridge started being more commonplace at the end of the civil war (and with it, a vast increase in firing rate).

[Epicedion]

Single Shot is nice, but I bet there will be plenty of times that -9 to the target's defense dice will be much nicer.

Ouch, that means that if you have dead average stats and go on full defense, you still get 0 dice to defend against a full auto attack.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Single Shot is nice, but I bet there will be plenty of times that -9 to the target's defense dice will be much nicer.

Ouch, that means that if you have dead average stats and go on full defense, you still get 0 dice to defend against a full auto attack.

If Shadowrun has taught me one thing over the years, it's that getting good cover is the number one most important thing. Ever.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Sendaz]

If Shadowrun has taught me one thing over the years, it's that getting good cover is the number one most important thing. Ever.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And remember that heavily cybered troll on your team counts as cover. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[quentra]

If Shadowrun has taught me one thing over the years, it's that getting good cover is the number one most important thing. Ever.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Remember that if you tie on the opposed test while in cover, you still take the base damage -1 DV. If the DV of the gun exceeds the armour value of the structure you're using as cover.

[Razhul]

Oh, wow, I get it now. Thanks, Werewolf!

It reads "an action other than (shooting for an entire Action Phase.)" Added the () to mark which part should be said out together and belongs together. It also makes sense that recoil builds up if you keep stringing complex actions together, meaning, you actually never stopped shooting / holding down the trigger. /facepalm

Yay, understanding was had!

[Epicedion]

Remember that if you tie on the opposed test while in cover, you still take the base damage -1 DV. If the DV of the gun exceeds the armour value of the structure you're using as cover.

Don't you get to reduce the DV by a resistance test from the cover?

[quentra]

Don't you get to reduce the DV by a resistance test from the cover?

Nope. Penetration rules apply, off page 198.

If the weapon you’re using is primarily a penetrating
weapon, like a firearm or a pointed sword, then the barrier
takes 1 box of unresisted damage (or no damage at
all at the gamemaster’s discretion), allowing the rest to
transfer to the target behind it. When multiple rounds are
fired at a barrier, the damage increases to 2 boxes for 3
bullets, 3 boxes for six bullets, and 4 boxes for 10 bullets.
Subtract this from the damage done to anyone on
the other side of the barrier. This is only true for weapons
whose modified DV exceeds the Armor rating of the barrier.
As above, if the modified DV is less than the Armor,
the attack is stopped dead with no damage to anything.

[Samoth]

Oh, wow, I get it now. Thanks, Werewolf!

It reads "an action other than (shooting for an entire Action Phase.)" Added the () to mark which part should be said out together and belongs together. It also makes sense that recoil builds up if you keep stringing complex actions together, meaning, you actually never stopped shooting / holding down the trigger. /facepalm

Yay, understanding was had!

That really does make a lot of sense and potentially changes everything. We'll see if it is covered in the eratta.

[Dancer]

Now that we've sorted that out, why do machineguns exist? They're like assault rifles, only worse.

[Liam]

Sustained fire, I guess? But each machine gun listed really ought to have it's damage code bumped up by at least one. LMGs tend to use assault rifle calibers, MMGs tend to use battle rifle calibers, and HMGs tend to be anti materiel weapons.

[Werewindlefr]

They're worse than assault rifle, but they use the heavy weapon skills. I guess they're good for Assault Cannon trolls who don't want to invest in Automatics.

But yeah, aside from that, an Ares Alpha is a like a cheaper more concealable, much more powerful LMG with a grenade launcher, a better availability, the ability to fire in single shots, and that only has 8 fewer rounds in the charger.

Machine guns don't need 1 more damage, they need 3, or 2 and an extra -1AP. Alternatively, more built in recoil compensation.

[DWC]

They're worse than assault rifle, but they use the heavy weapon skills. I guess they're good for Assault Cannon trolls who don't want to invest in Automatics.

But yeah, aside from that, an Ares Alpha is a like a cheaper more concealable, much more powerful LMG with a grenade launcher, a better availability, the ability to fire in single shots, and that only has 8 fewer rounds in the charger.

Machine guns don't need 1 more damage, they need 3, or 2 and an extra -1AP. Alternatively, more built in recoil compensation.

The only real advantage they have is the ability to take belted ammo for sustained suppressive fire. I was hoping all of them would at least offer some sort of bonus to suppressive fire damage or an additional penalty on tests to avoid suppressive fire. The machineguns do at least offer range improvements over the assault rifles.

Sadly, when Duffel Bag of Guns gives you the option to make an EBR fire FA from a 100 round drum or a belt feed, you'll never see another machinegun.

[Werewindlefr]

If I understand correctly, IRL, the main advantage of LMGs over assault rifles is resistance to overheating and sometimes better ability to support sustained fire. Overheating isn't in the rules, but I would abstract that as 2 freebie recoil compensation.

Maybe we should also add something like +2 dice for suppressive fire tests? (Which de-facto increases the penalty on the test to avoid suppressive fire)

[Mäx]

Machineguns sucking is kind of a tradition is shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

This is wrong, according to the freelancers who made the rules, sorry. I thought exactly like you, but I have official word that I was wrong (and as a consequence, so are you). Simple actions DO reset recoil.

By definition, Freelancers cannot be Word of God on a game system. Freelancers are contracted by the company holding the rights but are not direct representatives of the company that holds the rights to the game. As such, unless an official Catalyst employee were to state what you state and do so on the record, it's not word of god.

Note that one the record means that the statement must be made in the capacity of his official position within Catalyst.

[Sendaz]

To: All GOD divisions
Subject: Referencing to memos and sources of same

Please note that all internal memos generated within the Grid Overwatch Division shall not be referred to as Word of GOD as Legal and HR are having to field numerous complaints on this subject.

Memo of GOD will likewise not be allowed.

Also will the party or parties responsible for creating the Icon of two stone tablets with memos from HQ inscribed on it please remove this immediately and refrain from such juvenile actions in the future or appropriate disciplinary actions will result.

[Werewindlefr]

By definition, Freelancers cannot be Word of God on a game system. Freelancers are contracted by the company holding the rights but are not direct representatives of the company that holds the rights to the game. As such, unless an official Catalyst employee were to state what you state and do so on the record, it's not word of god.

Note that one the record means that the statement must be made in the capacity of his official position within Catalyst.

They're the closest thing to an official word on the rules we get for now - since they made those rule, and the line developer (while a nice person) has shown several times he doesn't know the rules of the game.

For everything else, there's an errata, but Aaron already explained the sentence in detail, including a language analysis. You may choose to ignore what they said, it's not really my business, but chances are they're the ones who are right.

[Dancer]

If I understand correctly, IRL, the main advantage of LMGs over assault rifles is resistance to overheating and sometimes better ability to support sustained fire. Overheating isn't in the rules, but I would abstract that as 2 freebie recoil compensation.

By RAW machineguns actually have worse recoil and controllability than rifles, since unsompensated recoil is doubled. (Apparently in SR-land the heavier the weapon the greater the recoil.)

My quick-and-dirty fix would be to strike the double-recoil rule, and instead say that machineguns halve all recoil generated. 6 rounds? 3 recoil. This means that a gyromounted machinegun can fire 10-round burths for several phases in a row before having to pause, giving them an actual niche (and matching their real-world niche of sustained automatic fire). Combine that with the +2 dice to suppressive fire you suggested and I think we're done.

Maybe give them all +1 DV to match other weapons of the same calibre, but in that case I'd emphasise the big-and-loud-and-awkward-in-close-quarters nature of machineguns more during play as well.

[DWC]

By RAW machineguns actually have worse recoil and controllability than rifles, since unsompensated recoil is doubled. (Apparently in SR-land the heavier the weapon the greater the recoil.)

My quick-and-dirty fix would be to strike the double-recoil rule, and instead say that machineguns halve all recoil generated. 6 rounds? 3 recoil. This means that a gyromounted machinegun can fire 10-round burths for several phases in a row before having to pause, giving them an actual niche (and matching their real-world niche of sustained automatic fire). Combine that with the +2 dice to suppressive fire you suggested and I think we're done.

Maybe give them all +1 DV to match other weapons of the same calibre, but in that case I'd emphasise the big-and-loud-and-awkward-in-close-quarters nature of machineguns more during play as well.

Don't forget that a bunch of the Heavy Weapons are SS, making their recoil meaningless anyway. In truth, the only ones where is matters are the MGL12, the Krime Kannon, and the machineguns.

[phlapjack77]

Don't forget that a bunch of the Heavy Weapons are SS, making their recoil meaningless anyway. In truth, the only ones where is matters are the MGL12, the Krime Kannon, and the machineguns.

It's interesting, since this has been a "problem" since SR4.

[X-Kalibur]

I'll stay out of the heavy weapons bit here, my thoughts on the previous bit about RC: I had thought it was particular to the aim action to reset recoil. That, to me, made the most sense. I suppose I need to read that section again now.

[KarmaInferno]

At Origins, the judges were having any non-firing Simple Action reset Recoil.

Not any kind of official confirmation, but still...




-k

[Sendaz]

Well it helps to know they were playing it that way at least and seemed to work.