IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> SR5 Matrix Thoughts, How the hell do you see shit in these?
quentra
post Jul 18 2013, 09:50 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



So, I've been working on a matrix scenario. I built myself a techno and decided to start with something simple - namely ripping off the example in the book on page 232.

My first thought was literally just doing the same thing, just as a test. Turns out...the example is either wrong, or there's something I'm missing.

Matrix perception tells us, on page 235, that

QUOTE (SR5 RAW)
You can automatically spot the icons of devices that
are not running silent within 100 meters of your physical
location. No matter where you are in the Matrix, your
commlink or deck (or your living persona) only has its
own antenna for wireless signals, so this distance is measured
from your physical location no matter where you
are in the Matrix. Beyond this distance, you need to make
a Matrix Perception Test (p. 241) to find a specific icon.
For all intents and purposes, there is no “physical”
distance to any host in the Matrix. You can always spot a
host from anywhere on the planet without a test, assuming
the host isn’t running silent.
You can always keep track of your marks, so you can
spot an icon you have a mark on without a test, no matter
the distance.


So from that, there are three sorts of icons we can spot automagically: devices, hosts, and icons you've personally marked. The example on page 232 says,

QUOTE (SR5 RAW)
Tesseract needs to pick up a piece of data a Renraku
sarariman has on his commlink, and he decides to
go for a smash-and-grab. The target isn’t running silent,
so he can see the file he wants, but it’s protected.


which leaves me confused. Do you automagically spot the icons of personas and files that share the same owner marks as the device? I couldn't find that in the rules, but maybe I missed a sentence. It seems to be you'd need a matrix perception check to see the personas and files, and that meshes with 'Spot a target icon you’re looking for.' in the Matrix Perception chart, but the example doesn't have that. (Maybe he'd already done his matrix perception check?) But what if you don't have a target, and just want to poke around? Then it seems you still require a Matrix Perception check, which does state on page 241

QUOTE (SR5 RAW)
When you use this action to analyze a
Matrix object or scan the vicinity for silent-running
icons, you make a Simple Test and your hits
determine how much info you get. For each net
hit scored, you can ask for one piece of information
about the object—this could be type, a rating,
how many marks it has on it, any files it may
be carrying, which grid it is using, whether any
silent running icons are in the area, or any other
pertinent Matrix information.


So if you see a commlink and just want to root around, you still have to ask some questions, like 'What files are on this device'? Then I run into the issue of what exactly do you get? Just the file name? You obviously don't see the contents of the file, since derp, that's what the Edit File action is for, but then couldn't you just have the file name be anything? Or is there a way to verify without copying that that's the data you need? In the example on page 232, it just states that the decker saw the file (presumably with a matrix perception check, though that isn't mentioned), then put a mark on it, cracked the protection, then copied it. (Though technically, it seems that seeing whether a file has protection on it and gauging the rating of that protection is another Matrix Perception check.)

How did he know it was the correct file before copying? Or if you have to place a mark on every single file (Just look at a given person's facebook albums, maybe people have dozens of albums and hundreds of pictures) that would take ages. You see the icon of hundreds of scrolls or glowing cubes or whatever, what distinguishes one from the other without actually opening up and looking?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moirdryd
post Jul 18 2013, 10:45 PM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 865
Joined: 31-December 03
From: Shadows of Britain
Member No.: 5,944



Set your reality filter to view thumbnail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moirdryd
post Jul 18 2013, 10:49 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 865
Joined: 31-December 03
From: Shadows of Britain
Member No.: 5,944



I all seriousness that's probabley not far off, given the standardised iconographic rules of the Matrix. Also there is the fact the system is written to be playable in a quick fashion instead of the longer system of say SR3 (where that sort of thing was part of the ruleset) and stopping to make a roll for every last detail is more the territory of RoleMaster.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 18 2013, 10:58 PM
Post #4


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



I tend to think of Matrix Perception like meat world perception. Only roll it if what you're looking for is actually trying to hide. Or, say if there is a massive amount of data that's beyond your deck's reality filters. Looking at the files on someone's commlink wouldn't do it (unless they were intentionally hidden), but in the example where BK breaks into the host in the book, I'd probably have him roll perception at a low difficulty to spot the particular file he wants in the potential mountain of data he's looking at.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 18 2013, 11:20 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Liam @ Jul 18 2013, 06:58 PM) *
I tend to think of Matrix Perception like meat world perception. Only roll it if what you're looking for is actually trying to hide. Or, say if there is a massive amount of data that's beyond your deck's reality filters. Looking at the files on someone's commlink wouldn't do it (unless they were intentionally hidden), but in the example where BK breaks into the host in the book, I'd probably have him roll perception at a low difficulty to spot the particular file he wants in the potential mountain of data he's looking at.


Except by RAW, you only autospot devices (and presumably personas using that device?), hosts, and icons you've personally marked, within 100 metres.

Amusingly, that means that you do not autospot technomancers (since they're device-less personas.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 18 2013, 11:26 PM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



Again, I have to go back to meatworld perception here. If something isn't hiding, there is no point in making someone look for it. You're just slowing down the game at that point. Data is what the Matrix is made out of. If you're not seeing the data that's not being hidden, such as files, personas, and so on, what exactly are you seeing when you jack in?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 18 2013, 11:33 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Liam @ Jul 18 2013, 06:26 PM) *
Again, I have to go back to meatworld perception here. If something isn't hiding, there is no point in making someone look for it. You're just slowing down the game at that point. Data is what the Matrix is made out of. If you're not seeing the data that's not being hidden, such as files, personas, and so on, what exactly are you seeing when you jack in?


Whatever RAW says. I can understand the desire for houseruling it to be like Matrix Perception, but that's not what the book itself says it's like. (And since I'm discussing the mechanics of the game, which use the printed rules, I go by those.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 18 2013, 11:47 PM
Post #8


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



Well, going by the initial example, it does appear that if the device isn't running silently, you can just see the file. They don't mention a perception test in the example, so I wouldn't make my players role for perception. But I guess you don't put much significance on the examples?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 18 2013, 11:49 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Liam @ Jul 18 2013, 06:47 PM) *
Well, going by the initial example, it does appear that if the device isn't running silently, you can just see the file. They don't mention a perception test in the example, so I wouldn't make my players role for perception. But I guess you don't put much significance on the examples?


No, because the example clashes with RAW. I would say he's rolled the perception test beforehand and that's not included in the example, so it's incomplete.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 19 2013, 12:01 AM
Post #10


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



But the rules don't say you have to roll to find a file. They don't mention it at all, as far as I can tell. So where is the clash?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:07 AM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



In that the rules state that only devices, hosts, and icons you've marked are automatically spotted without a check. Do you want me to elaborate and repost the section of the rules that are titled Matrix Perception once again?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Jul 19 2013, 12:16 AM
Post #12


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



Your deck or commlink actually knows where everything is. It is you reality filter or your decks representation of what is there that is failing you. Read the part about what is on the grid. You need the overall context of the system before you worry Bout the perception rules.

P.217
"The first piece of assistance comes from your com-mlink, which automatically filters out the least interest-ing icons. Do you want to know the virtual location of every music player in the world? Right, neither do I. So the Matrix will usually show you an icon for an individ-ual's personal area network (PAN), not every device in that network (although it makes exceptions for inter-esting or dangerous devices in that network, such as a gun). Additionally, the farther away devices are from you in the real world, the dimmer their icons are in the Matrix; this is partly because your commlink figures the farther ones aren't as interesting to you, but mostly be-cause the connection is a bit slower due to the distance. Matrix gear renders the far-off devices and personas as dim, muted, or flickering icons. Also cutting down on the visual noise is the fact that some icons are deliber-ately hidden from view, such as locks and other security devices, baby monitors, maintenance monitors, and of course people who prefer not to be seen."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:18 AM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 18 2013, 07:16 PM) *
Your deck or commlink actually knows where everything is. It is you reality filter or your decks representation of what is there that is failing you. Read the part about what is on the grid. You need the overall context of the system before you worry Bout the perception rules.


Can you get me a page quote? So when wondering about how Matrix perception works, I shouldn't be looking at the rules titles 'Matrix Perception'?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jack VII
post Jul 19 2013, 12:22 AM
Post #14


Skillwire Savant
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,154
Joined: 5-April 13
From: Aurora Warrens, UCAS Sector of the FRFZ
Member No.: 88,139



QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 18 2013, 07:18 PM) *
So when wondering about how Matrix perception works, I shouldn't be looking at the rules titles 'Matrix Perception'?

That's fairly typical of Shadowrun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DireRadiant
post Jul 19 2013, 12:23 AM
Post #15


The Dragon Never Sleeps
*********

Group: Admin
Posts: 6,924
Joined: 1-September 05
Member No.: 7,667



QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 18 2013, 07:18 PM) *
Can you get me a page quote? So when wondering about how Matrix perception works, I shouldn't be looking at the rules titles 'Matrix Perception'?


So you skipped the Matrix Basics and Virtual Visions sections right at the beginning of the chapter?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:25 AM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 18 2013, 07:23 PM) *
So you skipped the Matrix Basics and Virtual Visions sections right at the beginning of the chapter?


I didn't, but I don't see rules for spotting things in the Matrix there. (What could that mechanic possibly be called? Not Matrix Perception, surely, that's far too obvious.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 19 2013, 12:28 AM
Post #17


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



That's the problem. Read the whole matrix chapter, start to finish. That'll clear up your problem. And the page number for his quote is right at the top of his quote.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:36 AM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



So the quote there says that the Matrix makes PANs and 'dangerous' devices visible. Still says zip about files or the mechanical way you would implement actually looking at stuff in the Matrix. But what's this? It seems, the devs, in their infinite wisdom, included a paragraph called 'Matrix Perception'! Would that be the mechanical implementation of seeing stuff in the Matrix? It seems so!

Let's see, what does the Matrix Perception rules say? It says you can only autospot devices, hosts, and icons you've marked! How curious!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 19 2013, 12:45 AM
Post #19


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



Okay, okay, you got me. You're clearly a troll and I fell for it. My bad. Well done. Enjoy the rest of your day. I'm done here.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:47 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Liam @ Jul 18 2013, 07:45 PM) *
Okay, okay, you got me. You're clearly a troll and I fell for it. My bad. Well done. Enjoy the rest of your day. I'm done here.


Trolling involves reference and using the rules? I must be one hell of an epic troll.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jack VII
post Jul 19 2013, 12:49 AM
Post #21


Skillwire Savant
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,154
Joined: 5-April 13
From: Aurora Warrens, UCAS Sector of the FRFZ
Member No.: 88,139



Maybe this is like that terrible wording concerning the progressive recoil thing that's been debated back and forth. Maybe "icons of devices" means both the device icon and the icons of things belonging to the device. It's a terrible interpretation, but who knows (see progressive recoil wording).

It also says 'interesting'. If you're looking for a file, that would be of interest to you, right? Unless there is some clarification, I'm going with whatever method involves more speedy hacking, which I think was something of a design goal this go around.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:52 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 18 2013, 07:49 PM) *
Maybe this is like that terrible wording concerning the progressive recoil thing that's been debated back and forth. Maybe "icons of devices" means both the device icon and the icons of things belonging to the device. It's a terrible interpretation, but who knows (see progressive recoil wording).

It also says 'interesting'. If you're looking for a file, that would be of interest to you, right? Unless there is some clarification, I'm going with whatever method involves more speedy hacking, which I think was something of a design goal this go around.


I agree about the confusing wording, but the Matrix Perception action on page 241 lists 'any files it may be carrying' as an option on the test, so the intent does seem that you should make a matrix perception check to see what files are actually on a commlink.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Liam
post Jul 19 2013, 12:53 AM
Post #23


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 3-October 11
From: Southern California
Member No.: 39,682



Precisely what Jack is saying. You ought to interpret the rules in such a way that increases their playability and ease of use, not diminishes it. And troll is perhaps the wrong word. You're definitely arguing for the sake of arguing, and not trying to find a solution to your problem, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
quentra
post Jul 19 2013, 12:56 AM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 493
Joined: 7-December 07
From: Kiev, USSR
Member No.: 14,536



QUOTE (Liam @ Jul 18 2013, 07:53 PM) *
Precisely what Jack is saying. You ought to interpret the rules in such a way that increases their playability and ease of use, not diminishes it. And troll is perhaps the wrong word. You're definitely arguing for the sake of arguing, and not trying to find a solution to your problem, though.


I ought to interpret? Having rules being 'interpretable' lead to table arguments, often from people who know the rules. (People known as rule lawyers, which I've been known to be on occasion.) But, seeing as I paid money for the the rules, I should be able to use them with minimal interpretation, no? Otherwise, why bother with a new system at all, if I'm just gonna 'interpret' (read: GM fiat) the rules however I wish?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 19 2013, 12:57 AM
Post #25


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



theoretically, if he had a mark on the device, he would have a mark on anything slaved to the device (or anything slaved to the device it is slaved to... whichever it is, marks are propagated from slave to master, and vice versa).

not sure how that would apply to files though. i don't think you can slave files. it's possible the example was just glossing some stuff over so that it could explain what it was focused on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 06:04 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.