IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Cyberlimb question clearinghouse
Samoth
post Jul 19 2013, 03:17 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 422
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Columbus, OH
Member No.: 875



This thread is intended to remove the ambiguity from the cyberlimb rules.

Page 455.
"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
Page 456.
"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity. Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table."

Therefore, should Torso and Skull be able to hold bioware and cyber-implants that do not take capacity (ie. Cybereyes, Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, etc?) What bioware would be excluded?

At what point does one's cyber body become too mechanical to get ANY benefit from bioware? What bioware would be excluded from giving benefit to a heavily cyberlimbed character?

Page 456.
"The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)."

The age old question: what exactly do I use a partial limb's stats for? Do I use the partial limb stats to pull the trigger on a gun? Do I use them to swing a knife?

"Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes are increased beyond your natural maximum for that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements."

The wording confuses me: For example, consider a baseline human with all 3s in stats. He gets two cyberarms and wants to customize them to his natural max. Would his natural max be 6 (Human max) or 7 (3+4)? Consider the same human with 6s in his stats before modification, what is his max now?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
binarywraith
post Jul 19 2013, 03:28 PM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



Yes, you can have cyber and bio in your head and torso despite having a cyberskull or cybertorso, specifically because there is meat inside that the cyber/bio is actually implanted in. As opposed to a fully synthetic cyberlimb which has no such thing. They are only 'cyberlimbs' for purposes of the rules on capacity and what modifications can be added to them.

No cyber or bioware is excluded from being used with cyberlimbs save that which obviously mutually conflicts, like bone lacing and bone density. These conflicts are stated in the gear description for each item. The limit on 'what won't work' is 'how much essence do you have left'.

The use of stats on partial limbs is not fully clarified, but left to GM discretion. I would suggest discussing it with your GM prior to play, however the general assumption is that for most tests which you can opt to use said limb, the bonus can apply.

Cyberlimb customization is only confusing if you do as you have here, and take it entirely out of context. Read the paragraph directly before it :

QUOTE
Cyberlimbs: These prosthetics are basic off-the-shelf
models. All standard cyberlimbs come with Strength
and Agility attributes of 3. These values can only be
augmented by cyberlimb enhancements, not other augmentations.

Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored
and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization
lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or
Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases
the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes
are increased beyond your natural maximum for
that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo
it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You
customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize
it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.
Cyberlimbs may be either obvious or synthetic.


So cyberlimbs start at 3/3 Strength/Ag. You may push these values up to your natural attribute maximum for +1 availability and +5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per point, so a 6/6 full obvious cyberarm would be availability 10 and cost 45,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .


To go above your natural attribute maximum (6 for humans, 6+/- racial mod for metahumans, see the Metatype Attribute Table on page 66 ), you need to buy Cyberlimb Enhancements, which go to 3. So a character with a cyberlimb can, at a steep price, get attribute maximum + 3 in strength and/or agility for that limb if there is enough Capacity left in it.



None of this is actually ambiguity if you read the rules rather than just skimming the charts.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samoth
post Jul 19 2013, 03:42 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 422
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Columbus, OH
Member No.: 875



Thanks, I read them all and wanted confirmation, otherwise I wouldn't have posted a thread.

By the way, it doesn't answer this:
Page 456.
"The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)."

The age old question: what exactly do I use a partial limb's stats for? Do I use the partial limb stats to pull the trigger on a gun? Do I use them to swing a knife?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SpellBinder
post Jul 20 2013, 12:31 AM
Post #4


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,351
Joined: 19-September 09
From: Behind the shadows of the Resonance
Member No.: 17,653



Probably not, but for picking a pocket or lock you probably would.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wakshaani
post Jul 20 2013, 02:26 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,598
Joined: 24-May 03
Member No.: 4,629



QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 19 2013, 09:42 AM) *
The age old question: what exactly do I use a partial limb's stats for? Do I use the partial limb stats to pull the trigger on a gun? Do I use them to swing a knife?


Gripping and crushing for hands, for example. This lets you choke at a level that'd impress Cheryl Tunt.

For feet, a bit less opportunity, but up th eAgility and get some Enhanced Articulation, and you have a lockpicking option that may well get overlooked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Samoth
post Jul 21 2013, 06:00 PM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 422
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Columbus, OH
Member No.: 875



Take this example: a human with all natural 3s in stats. He gets two full cyberarms with adjusted 9s in Agility and Strength. His previous physical limit was 4, but now that he has the two limbs above, does his physical limit raise to 6 (average of 4 limbs, 9+9+3+3) or do the limbs not factor in?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Epicedion
post Jul 21 2013, 06:14 PM
Post #7


Douche
****

Group: Banned
Posts: 1,584
Joined: 2-March 11
Member No.: 23,135



QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 21 2013, 01:00 PM) *
Take this example: a human with all natural 3s in stats. He gets two full cyberarms with adjusted 9s in Agility and Strength. His previous physical limit was 4, but now that he has the two limbs above, does his physical limit raise to 6 (average of 4 limbs, 9+9+3+3) or do the limbs not factor in?


I think you get the Limit increase on things specifically involving the limbs. Lifting or stabbing, for example, but not sprinting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sendaz
post Jul 21 2013, 06:17 PM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,039
Joined: 23-March 05
From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries
Member No.: 7,216



QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 21 2013, 01:14 PM) *
I think you get the Limit increase on things specifically involving the limbs. Lifting or stabbing, for example, but not sprinting.

unless you do it as a running handstand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
binarywraith
post Jul 21 2013, 06:18 PM
Post #9


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 21 2013, 01:00 PM) *
Take this example: a human with all natural 3s in stats. He gets two full cyberarms with adjusted 9s in Agility and Strength. His previous physical limit was 4, but now that he has the two limbs above, does his physical limit raise to 6 (average of 4 limbs, 9+9+3+3) or do the limbs not factor in?


QUOTE (Page 95, SR5)
Attributes boosted by cyberware or bioware do
not affect the calculation for things such as points for
Knowledge skills or Contacts. However, other in-game
mechanics such as Initiative and Inherent Limits are
modified by these augmentations, which means these
bonuses need to be factored in during Step Eight: Final
Numbers (p. 100). When calculating the Social limit using
Essence, round your remaining Essence up to the
nearest whole number before calculating the limit.


I don't -like- it, but RAW seems to say they do get factored in.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HugeC
post Jul 25 2013, 10:52 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 315
Joined: 9-May 10
Member No.: 18,563



QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 21 2013, 01:00 PM) *
Take this example: a human with all natural 3s in stats. He gets two full cyberarms with adjusted 9s in Agility and Strength. His previous physical limit was 4, but now that he has the two limbs above, does his physical limit raise to 6 (average of 4 limbs, 9+9+3+3) or do the limbs not factor in?

Personally, I use 5 as the divisor (4 limbs and 1 torso), so that would be (9*2 + 3*3) / 5 = 5.4, rounded up to 6. EDIT Oh wait, you mean his limit. You use the average Strength (which I just calculated for you) to determine the limit, so say this guy has Body and Reaction 3, his physical limit would be (6 * 2 + 3 + 3) / 3 = 6.

Here's my question: A datajack can no longer be installed in a cyberlimb using capacity, you have to pay Essence for it. A commlink (with free sim module), however, can be installed using capacity. So if I get my commlink installed in my arm, doesn't that kinda obviate the need for a datajack?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 26 2013, 12:19 AM
Post #11


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



QUOTE (HugeC @ Jul 25 2013, 06:52 PM) *
Here's my question: A datajack can no longer be installed in a cyberlimb using capacity, you have to pay Essence for it. A commlink (with free sim module), however, can be installed using capacity. So if I get my commlink installed in my arm, doesn't that kinda obviate the need for a datajack?


well, that depends. in the sense of "will this allow me to connect to other things", sure.

in the sense of "can it give me noise reduction and a direct physical connection of DNI to external device", not so much...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HugeC
post Jul 26 2013, 02:36 PM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 315
Joined: 9-May 10
Member No.: 18,563



QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 25 2013, 07:19 PM) *
well, that depends. in the sense of "will this allow me to connect to other things", sure.

in the sense of "can it give me noise reduction and a direct physical connection of DNI to external device", not so much...

As mentioned on p. 421, all devices have a universal data port, which means I could physically connect to other devices through the commlink, and the commlink's sim module gives me DNI, right? Noise reduction is a good point, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 26 2013, 05:43 PM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



QUOTE (HugeC @ Jul 26 2013, 10:36 AM) *
As mentioned on p. 421, all devices have a universal data port, which means I could physically connect to other devices through the commlink, and the commlink's sim module gives me DNI, right? Noise reduction is a good point, though.


the commlink is inside your head. unless the person plugging that device into your commlink is a neurosurgeon, and you're in a very clean environment with a large amount of medical equipment handy, you will likely find that the drawbacks of directly connecting a device to your internal commlink include permanent brain damage, death, paralysis, intense pain, death, bleeding, infection, death, and death. also, the connection will likely not be very good because the port will be full of blood.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DrZaius
post Jul 26 2013, 05:54 PM
Post #14


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,856
Joined: 25-July 07
Member No.: 12,360



QUOTE (Samoth @ Jul 19 2013, 10:42 AM) *
Thanks, I read them all and wanted confirmation, otherwise I wouldn't have posted a thread.

By the way, it doesn't answer this:
Page 456.
"The attributes of partial limbs (including cyberhands and –feet) may be enhanced, but their attributes only apply for tests directly involving those limbs (such as a Strength Test when gripping something with an enhanced cyberhand)."

The age old question: what exactly do I use a partial limb's stats for? Do I use the partial limb stats to pull the trigger on a gun? Do I use them to swing a knife?


I'm curious about this as well. Specifically, I'm curious what the rules would be for each class of gun.

1) Light pistol, taser, heavy pistol, machine pistol (without stock): 1 arm seems fine.
2) SMG? SMG with stock? Assault rifle? Seems like you might need 2 hands.
3) Heavy weapons? 2 hands would seem to be required. What if I have a gyromount? etc.

-DrZ
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
HugeC
post Jul 26 2013, 06:09 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 315
Joined: 9-May 10
Member No.: 18,563



Re: Jaid, I'm talking about a commlink in a cyberarm here, not headware, but even then, why would you not have an external interface to it? You'd at least want to be able to recharge it without surgery, I'd think.

Also, why would anyone ever get a headware commlink for 0.2 Essence when a datajack is 0.1? I mean, is there a shortage of pockets in the Sixth World or something?

I guess my basic point is that charging Essence for a datajack in a cyberlimb is dumb when they don't charge Essence for a commlink. It ought to be [1] capacity like it was in SR4.

Re: DrZ, they've left that up to the GM.

Speaking for myself, I would just use average values all the time. Attributes are abstractions anyway, and in the real world, having a super-strong, super-agile robot arm would be an advantage if you're punching with it, but you don't use only your arm when you punch, or even when you fire a pistol.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DrZaius
post Jul 26 2013, 06:49 PM
Post #16


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,856
Joined: 25-July 07
Member No.: 12,360



QUOTE (HugeC @ Jul 26 2013, 01:09 PM) *
Re: Jaid, I'm talking about a commlink in a cyberarm here, not headware, but even then, why would you not have an external interface to it? You'd at least want to be able to recharge it without surgery, I'd think.

Also, why would anyone ever get a headware commlink for 0.2 Essence when a datajack is 0.1? I mean, is there a shortage of pockets in the Sixth World or something?

I guess my basic point is that charging Essence for a datajack in a cyberlimb is dumb when they don't charge Essence for a commlink. It ought to be [1] capacity like it was in SR4.

Re: DrZ, they've left that up to the GM.

Speaking for myself, I would just use average values all the time. Attributes are abstractions anyway, and in the real world, having a super-strong, super-agile robot arm would be an advantage if you're punching with it, but you don't use only your arm when you punch, or even when you fire a pistol.


That seems reasonable. I think it would depend on a number of factors.

Firing a light pistol? I'd say use the cyberarm only.
Elf firing a HMG? Average
Troll firing a Assault rifle? I could easily see that being a 1 armed action, cyberarm only (but not allowing recoil compensation from shoulder stocks).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jul 26 2013, 07:37 PM
Post #17


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



cyberware somehow doesn't seem to need recharging. precisely how it works is a mystery, but it must be running off of whatever your body generates. there is no need for an external power port, or any external connections whatsoever.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
WorkOver
post Jul 27 2013, 12:59 PM
Post #18


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 105
Joined: 28-August 05
Member No.: 7,637



I am confused. The rules say you can add 1-3 to a cyberlimb stat, in the table. How does a troll get a proper strength cyber arm if they are base 3. 3+3 = 6.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post Jul 27 2013, 01:54 PM
Post #19


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (WorkOver @ Jul 27 2013, 07:59 AM) *
I am confused. The rules say you can add 1-3 to a cyberlimb stat, in the table. How does a troll get a proper strength cyber arm if they are base 3. 3+3 = 6.

Customization, p. 456.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 27 2013, 04:50 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 11-June 13
Member No.: 109,479



QUOTE (WorkOver @ Jul 27 2013, 12:59 PM) *
I am confused. The rules say you can add 1-3 to a cyberlimb stat, in the table. How does a troll get a proper strength cyber arm if they are base 3. 3+3 = 6.


First you buy it up to your racial maximum using the customization rules. Then, once that customization has occurred, you can then add Attribute enhancements for STR and AGI (Or Armor).

So, for instance, taking a Troll Arm from STR: 3 up to STR: 10 would cost 35k. Then you can enhance it further w/ +1 STR for 6.5k. This appears to have been put in place to prevent human's with Troll Arms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 03:32 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.