Average Joe vs Average Joe |
Average Joe vs Average Joe |
Jul 21 2013, 12:53 AM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,389 Joined: 20-August 12 From: Bunbury, western australia Member No.: 53,300 |
Ok. Average Joe has 3 in all attributes, and goes to the Gym (gymnastics 3) and the range (pistols 3). One day he meets his evil twin and after a heated argument pulls out his pistol and attempts to shoot his counterpart, who attempts to not get shot. His pistol has a laser sight.
AJ has 7 dice (Att 3 Skill 3 LS 1) DAJ has 9 dice (Reac 3 Int 3 Gymnastics 3 [he is using the dodge interrupt]) This means that most of the time AJ is going to MISS DAJ at a range of 5 meters or less. I can see where this is fine for gameplay, but it does feel a bit unrealistic. |
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Jul 21 2013, 01:05 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 170 Joined: 13-July 09 Member No.: 17,386 |
Ok. Average Joe has 3 in all attributes, and goes to the Gym (gymnastics 3) and the range (pistols 3). One day he meets his evil twin and after a heated argument pulls out his pistol and attempts to shoot his counterpart, who attempts to not get shot. His pistol has a laser sight. AJ has 7 dice (Att 3 Skill 3 LS 1) DAJ has 9 dice (Reac 3 Int 3 Gymnastics 3 [he is using the dodge interrupt]) This means that most of the time AJ is going to MISS DAJ at a range of 5 meters or less. I can see where this is fine for gameplay, but it does feel a bit unrealistic. Actually I think RW statistics support this. 80% of gun battles are fought at a range of 6-12 feet and have a first shot hit percentage of 42%. Adrenalin can make even highly trained individuals jerk the trigger, and even a fraction of an inch movement can result in a foot or more change in hit location at that range. |
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Jul 21 2013, 01:07 AM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,389 Joined: 20-August 12 From: Bunbury, western australia Member No.: 53,300 |
Actually I think RW statistics support this. 80% of gun battles are fought at a range of 6-12 feet and have a first shot hit percentage of 42%. Adrenalin can make even highly trained individuals jerk the trigger, and even a fraction of an inch movement can result in a foot or more change in hit location at that range. Now I know. And knowing is half the battle (GI JOE!) Blowing the drek out of the other guy is the other half, of course. |
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Jul 21 2013, 01:20 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
Quick note: the Dodge defense action only works against melee attacks. In order to get bonus dice against bullets, you need to go on Full Defense and add Willpower, rather than Gymnastics.
Taking this into account, AJ rolls 7 dice, and DAJ rolls 6, meaning AJ typically at least grazes DAJ. ~Umi |
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Jul 21 2013, 01:25 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 427 Joined: 22-January 10 From: Seattle Member No.: 18,067 |
Yeah, that looks right to me. Missing at close range with a pistol is very common. The shootout in the general vicinity of the OK Corral featured nine guys blasting away at each other at a distance of about two meters. It ended with four hits and two grazes out of some thirty shots fired.
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Jul 21 2013, 03:06 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 364 Joined: 12-July 13 Member No.: 127,215 |
I would like to recount a crime that I read about in the paper last year in NYC.
A man who was fired from his job walks up behind his former boss and shoots him out side of the empire state building. The police open fire killing the assailant. In the end including the victim and the assailant 11 people where shot, 10 of them by the police. Historically fire arms are inaccurate weapons. |
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Jul 21 2013, 11:40 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
I would like to recount a crime that I read about in the paper last year in NYC. A man who was fired from his job walks up behind his former boss and shoots him out side of the empire state building. The police open fire killing the assailant. In the end including the victim and the assailant 11 people where shot, 10 of them by the police. Historically fire arms are inaccurate weapons. Firearms aren't the problem in the accuracy equation. There is a HUGE difference between punching holes in paper at an indoor range and trying to hit someone who is shooting back at you. Even for well trained people, this is a problem. And most people (including most LE) are NOT well trained. |
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Jul 21 2013, 01:53 PM
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#8
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
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Jul 21 2013, 02:12 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 136 Joined: 10-April 05 From: Vienna, Austria Member No.: 7,312 |
I believe this is incorrect. The rules for parry and block clearly state that they work against melee attacks, but dodge does not make that distinction. IIRC Umidori is right on this one: Page 188 of the 5th Edition states it: Ranged defense A defender has two choices for defending against ranged attacks. The defending character can perform the standard Reaction + Intuition Test for free. The defender can also choose to go on Full Defense (p. 191) and decrease his Initiative Score by 10 to gain a bonus on their Defense Test equal to their Willpower for the whole Combat Turn. Melee Defense A defender has five choices for defending against melee attacks; one is free; three are Interrupt Actions that reduce his Initiative Score by 5; and one is an Interrupt Action that subtracts 10 from his Initiative Score. The character can perform the standard Reaction + Intuition Test for free. If the character has a melee weapon in hand, he can Parry (p. 191) the attack and roll Reaction + Intuition + appropriate Melee Weapon Skill [Physical] as his Defense test. If his hands are empty and he has the Unarmed Combat skill, he can Block (p. 192) and roll Reaction + Intuition + Unarmed Combat [Physical] as his Defense test. Or he can Dodge (p. 191) and roll Reaction + Intuition + Gymnastics [Physical] as his Defense test. These three, Parry, Block, and Dodge, each reduce his Initiative Score by 5 and only work for one defense test. If the defender chooses to go on Full Defense (p. 191), he subtracts 10 from his Initiative Score to boost his Defense test by an amount equal to his Willpower for the Combat Turn. Full Defense and Block, Dodge, or Parry can be used in conjunction with each other. EDIT: The Dodge Rules are explicitly stated under Melee Defense and not listed in the Options of Ranged Defense. Lets: Run our Average Joes through the Combat example: I'll Arm them with Fichetti 600 Light pistols (for the Laser). Both sit at McGintys Bar watching the Game and while rooting for different teams the argument gets heated and escalates from insult to potential injuriy. (They both wear armored clothing(AR6) comming from work and not having had time to change the ballistic underwear). AJ and DAJ both roll Initiative for an average of 9.5 (6+1d6): 1d6+6=12 1d6+6=7 AJ with his Initiative Score gets a good Start and Readies his Fichetti (The Laser is not wireless yet and he has no time to deploy the Folding stock, so only +1Acc no Dice bonus and a Recoil Compensation Value of 2 (1 like anybody +1 for Strength 3/3)) for a simle action and takes a simple action SA Attack firing a single Bulltet. They are within 5 Meters so its Short Range for no modifier but I'd put a -1 on AJ for the dim Light in the seedy sports bar (no mist for general non smoking). AJ adds up Pistols 3 + Agility 3 with -1 for Dim Light to a Pool of 5 5d6.hits(5)=1 DAJ does not want to take any chances and goes to Full Defense adding Reaction 3+ Intuition 3+ Willpower 3 for a total of 9 Dice and subtracting -10 from his Initiative to -3. All he will do this combat turn is Defend against any incomming attacks. 9d6.hits(5)=4 DAJ got away this time. But AJ has one Action Phase left, still not calming down over DAJ calling his favorite Player of the Seahawks a "P***y" and uses his complex action for a semi-automatic burst. The pools ar as follows: AJ Pistols 3+ Agility 3 -1 for Dim Light -2 for Recoil (Recoil carries over and he compensates for 2 of the 4 fired bullets total only). 3d6.hits(5)=0 Which is good for DAJ but not so much for the other patrons of McGintys Sports Bar who have their drinks spiked up with some high speed hevy metal. DAJ would have had his prior pool of 9 (AGL+INT+Will) -1 for subsequent attack in the same combat turn and -2 for the Burst leaving him still with 6 Dice to defend which he does not need. Thus concluding the first Combat turn with AJ 4 Bullets Short and DAJ still on his feet. hope you liked the example love, Sunshine |
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Jul 21 2013, 03:43 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 136 Joined: 10-April 05 From: Vienna, Austria Member No.: 7,312 |
QUOTE This means that most of the time AJ is going to MISS DAJ at a range of 5 meters or less. I can see where this is fine for gameplay, but it does feel a bit unrealistic. It might feel unrealistic as most "fight" are totally unrealistic as they are either a very one sided acts of violence and/or never "fair" and "balanced" figths in the first place. Taking the Setup with McGintys Sports Bar again AJ and BJ are in a heated argument. In the more realistic situation AJ says something to put BJ in his place who seems to back down from the argument walking to the toilet. Sitting there brooding over what he should have said in return beating himself up over his shitty reaction, his asshole boss and the customer who gave him a lip today he ddecides to "show em'" focusing his pent up anger on AJ. He gets his trusted Fichetti out of his holster enables the Lasers wireless function and deploys the folding Stock. Ready to rock and roll. He gets back from the toilet acting all casual having the gun dangling in his hands by his side and walking up to AJ who bathes his Ego in his perceived victory. AJ gets a Perception test for the ensuing Surprise Test. Int 3+ Per 3 -1 Dim Light for 5 Dice. 5d6.hits(5)=2 AJ gets that something is off and gets a +3 binus on his ensuing surprise roll. As BJ decided to be the surprise I decided for the sake of the example that BJ makes his Surprise roll just fine and is able to act. AJ Surprise roll goes as follows: Rea3 +Int3+3 from the Percetion test for a happy total of 9 Dice againt a Threshold of (3). For the sake of my argument I'll let him have 2 Hits (exchanging pool 1 to 4) and thus failing the Surprise BJ has for him in store. Inititative: AJ 1d6+6=10 -10=0 No Action BJ 1d6+6=11 So BJ can act on 11. His gun is ready in his hand and he Takes Aim for a simple Action netting him a +1 Die on his attack pool and letting him employ the improved Recoil compensation value of 3 (1+1 for Strength 3 +1 for the folding stock of the Fichetti 600). He attacks with his second simple action right after spending a free action muttering "P***y my a**, m****rf****r!". His pool is Pistols 3+ AGL 3 +1(Laser, Wireless)+1 Take Aim -1 Dim Light for a total of 7 Dice. 7d6.hits(5)=2 This time the 2 hits add to the 7P Damage Code of the Fichetti and AJ has no way to defend himself as he is a "average joe" and doesn't know how to employ edge. He is hit for 9P damage wich stays Physical (I assumed they still all wear armor clothing (AR6) like in the previous example) and he now has 9 dice to soak up the damage. 9d6.hits(5)=4 4 Hits reduce the Damage AJ takes to 5 Boxes of Physical damage which drops him on the spot (his Physical limit is 4, so 5 boxes make that a clean takedown). As AJ is still surprised, on a negative Initiative Score already and gone to the ground he can't do squat about the situation but beeding (As a generous GM I would assow him on e free action saying something like "Hey, Man put the gun awww...". BJ has now an Initiative of 1 and a complex action left and in a frenzy: He uses his a multiple attack free action and acomplex action for semi automatic burst fire. Recoil puts him at -1 dice pool as does the dim light condition for a total of -2. He still has 7 Dice (Pistols 3+ AGL3+ 1Laser) for a pool of 5 which he splits for a 3 and 2 dice pool (well he is in a frenzy and doesn't fear the glitches). 3d6.hits(5) → [2,6,3] = (1) and 2d6.hits(5) → [3,2] = (0) but no glitches. AJ has to soak for another 8 boxes of damage with 9 dice (Body 3 and AR6). 9d6.hits(5) → [1,1,1,2,5,6,4,1,4] = (2) Aj has 2 hits taking the damage with 6 additional boxes to 11 and right into overdamage. This concludes the first combat turn in a imo more realistic combat scenario. love, Sunshine |
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Jul 21 2013, 07:28 PM
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#11
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
IIRC Umidori is right on this one... So it seems. I stand corrected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
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